List Mgmt. Collingwood Trade Talk 2016

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Scodog10

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In addition to that, they also paid a hefty price for Burgoyne from memory. It's not so much that the Hawks get quality for unders, but that they're willing to do what needs to be done to get their targets.
Yeah that's my feel too. I think the football community is a couple of years behind Hawthorn on how they're staying ahead of the pack and the focus on their trading in is overblown. If I were to critically assess them their last hit was Lake going back almost 4 years.

If I had to put a finger on why they're ahead I would personally say it's more to do with their ability to maximise the output of their 30+ players. Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Burgoyne and Gibson are still in their top 6-8 players which is unheard of, IMO.

An interesting exercise would be to look at the number of games played by guys 30+ over the past decade and compare it throughout the league. I'd be shocked if Sydney, Geelong, Fremantle and Hawthorn weren't top of the tree in that regard.
 

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loki04

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Are you able to provide a recent example? For instance within the past 3 years? The only recent trades they've made have fallen reasonably flat, IMO, given their only recent high profile hit was a FA in Frawley.
I'm dating it back to when they built the majority of the team that won 4 flags since 08, you don't look at the last 3 years you go back 10+ years at least.

Some savvy drafting then they got in some decent trades for what i consider very minimal picks, Burgoyne came at the heaviest cost the rest was a lot of nothing picks or late first rounders which are equally hit and miss especially in some of the drafts they gave them up in.

A decades worth of data is more important then a nominal 3 years.

Shaun Burgoyne 9 + M.Williams
Josh Gibson 25 + 41
Jack Gunston, 53 and 71 for 24, 46, 64
David Hale and 52 for 27 and 71
Trent Croad (return from freo AA quality year in 08 flag after giving up L.Hodge for him) for pick 14 in a shit draft.
Jonathan O’Rourke + 43 a 2nd year former #2 pick for pick 19 + 40 AFTER winning a flag.
B.Lake 21 + 43

Brent Guerra PSD pick 3

Add to that FA's for small coin (players happy to come for less) of which one could have been matched and forced a trade BUT Melbourne new they would receive superior compo for letting him go.
Frawley
Simpkin

They also faired very well when the trades went the other way.

Between 2000 and 2010, Hawthorn traded out 16 players and received a net total of seven draft picks within the first 25.

This is exceptional. In the same period only North Melbourne gathered the same number of early picks via trades.

Most clubs, in fact, go the opposite way. Fremantle has traded out 21 players for a net total of four early draft picks. Adelaide and Sydney have both traded out 12 players for a net return of one early draft pick apiece.

Hawthorn finished out of the finals between 2002 and 2006. They used this time to rebuild, selling veterans for picks.

Collingwood

11 players out, 3 draft picks under 25 in ...

2002: Bo Nixon (21)

2005: Ryan Cook (23)

2006: Ben Reid (8)

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/tradin...yed-drafts-20151009-gk54vm.html#ixzz4CwV5hDx4
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

I'm just saying they have over the years faired very well at the trade table and i am hoping teams are wising up after 3 consecutive flags.
 

Scodog10

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I'm dating it back to when they built the majority of the team that won 4 flags since 08, you don't look at the last 3 years you go back 10+ years at least.

Some savvy drafting then they got in some decent trades for what i consider very minimal picks, Burgoyne came at the heaviest cost the rest was a lot of nothing picks or late first rounders which are equally hit and miss especially in some of the drafts they gave them up in.

A decades worth of data is more important then a nominal 3 years.

Shaun Burgoyne 9 + M.Williams
Josh Gibson 25 + 41
Jack Gunston, 53 and 71 for 24, 46, 64
David Hale and 52 for 27 and 71
Trent Croad (return from freo AA quality year in 08 flag after giving up L.Hodge for him) for pick 14 in a shit draft.
Jonathan O’Rourke + 43 a 2nd year former #2 pick for pick 19 + 40 AFTER winning a flag.
B.Lake 21 + 43

Brent Guerra PSD pick 3

Add to that FA's for small coin (players happy to come for less) of which one could have been matched and forced a trade BUT Melbourne new they would receive superior compo for letting him go.
Frawley
Simpkin

They also faired very well when the trades went the other way.

Between 2000 and 2010, Hawthorn traded out 16 players and received a net total of seven draft picks within the first 25.

This is exceptional. In the same period only North Melbourne gathered the same number of early picks via trades.

Most clubs, in fact, go the opposite way. Fremantle has traded out 21 players for a net total of four early draft picks. Adelaide and Sydney have both traded out 12 players for a net return of one early draft pick apiece.

Hawthorn finished out of the finals between 2002 and 2006. They used this time to rebuild, selling veterans for picks.

Collingwood

11 players out, 3 draft picks under 25 in ...

2002: Bo Nixon (21)

2005: Ryan Cook (23)

2006: Ben Reid (8)

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/tradin...yed-drafts-20151009-gk54vm.html#ixzz4CwV5hDx4
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

I'm just saying they have over the years faired very well at the trade table and i am hoping teams are wising up after 3 consecutive flags.
None of that looks unders to me at the time that the trades were completed? The only one I'd say they nailed and may have got for unders at the time was Gunston.

What they've done to develop those players once in their system is where they get their real benefit and what really separates Hawthorn from the rest.

FWIW given you've included the scrub O'Rouke I feel that strengthens my argument. He's up there with Trengove and Gumbleton as the worst number 2 pick this century.
 

loki04

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None of that looks unders to me at the time that the trades were completed? The only one I'd say they nailed and may have got for unders at the time was Gunston.

What they've done to develop those players once in their system is where they get their real benefit and what really separates Hawthorn from the rest.

FWIW given you've included the scrub O'Rouke I feel that strengthens my argument. He's up there with Trengove and Gumbleton as the worst number 2 pick this century.
At the time being he had only completed 1 year in the system they weren't to know that.



Also Gibson was playing well for Nth before he went to Hawks who just had a superior team set up.

Hale was also the same player at Nth as he was at Hawks difference being team success.

Lake was an AA defender at Dogs.

They paid unders for the returning Croad pick 14 after receiving overs for him a few years earlier.

Picks in the mid 20s and a down grade of later picks are crap for some of the talent they got.

These were also a lot of the time in draft years universally not rated for depth.

Certainly credit to them for identifying needs and securing them BUT imo they could of paid more for SOME of them.
 

MagpieBat

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Do you have the Source where he had said That?
The fact that he went into the coach's office and put his foot down and said 'I'm not being traded' probably speaks for itself, when his name was being thrown around for Treloar.

Admirable. But mistaken...

EDIT: I see Apex has pretty much said the same thing...
 

mike123

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We have an abundance of medium small defenders, Howe, Maynard, Williams, Sinclair, Schaz, Ramsay, Oxley, Langdon, Smith etc.
No-one could have predicted the injuies they as a group suffered but still, despite that they as a group were all good on Friday night. Mayard, Williams, Sinclair, Howe were all good. Maynard shapes as our Docherty, he will be a gun player in defense. We'll also have or should have Langdon, Schaz and Ramsay back next year.

I think we should trade Oxley out for a pick, and target WHE from GWS.
BTW, need to compare Lobb from GWS to Mason Cox, more of a like for like comparison than Witts who is a number 1 ruck.
It doesn't really matter how many half backs you have if most of them are average.

As for Maynard being Docherty,I don't think he has the speed or smarts.
 

Ketchup

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WHE is a dud. I don't know why some people see a draft number and think "O he's available we must get him" much like O'Rouke the other year, yes number 2, yes dud. We will pick up a player in the second round better than WHE.

Anyway, kinda a mute point unless another half decent name walks out of the club we won't be getting anyone because we literally have nothing to give up giving our clubs reluctance to take a gamble on moving a name worth anything. Macaffer, Goldsack, Toovey, Blair, witts, Broomhead, Oxley, Sinclair, etc are currently worth peanuts, without a first round pick unless the club is prepared to move on a Fasolo, Elliot, Grundy type player we won't be a big player in this at all. Which is disappointing considering the shape and quality of our side.
 

TradeDraft

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I don't need one. Vetoing the trade to GWS last year, where he would have been a shoe in to succeed Mumford, to play out his contract with us and risk being second fiddle to Grundy said it all.
I thought he Vetoing because he wanted to stay at Collingwood and try and get the Number 1 Ruck Spot back off F
Grundy.

Does not 100% say he did not want to go to GWS
 

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Soups

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I thought he Vetoing because he wanted to stay at Collingwood and try and get the Number 1 Ruck Spot back off F
Grundy.

Does not 100% say he did not want to go to GWS
Thats a good enough reason for him to stay he had a point to prove.

I don't think he wanted to go. His girlfriend was in Melbourne also.
 

Chrispiesssss

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I thought he Vetoing because he wanted to stay at Collingwood and try and get the Number 1 Ruck Spot back off F
Grundy.

Does not 100% say he did not want to go to GWS

We did chase Kreuzer too. There was no way we were gonna have all 3; Grundy, Witts and Kreuzer.
So obviously Witts was being pushed out the door. It all made sense at the time.
Treolar, Kreuzer-in.
Picks,Witts- out.

Once Witts said no, we cooled off on Kreuzer too. More than a coincidence IMO.
 

TradeDraft

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We did chase Kreuzer too. There was no way we were gonna have all 3; Grundy, Witts and Kreuzer.
So obviously Witts was being pushed out the door. It all made sense at the time.
Treolar, Kreuzer-in.
Picks,Witts- out.

Once Witts said no, we cooled off on Kreuzer too. More than a coincidence IMO.
But that says nothing about him not wanting to go to GWS
 

TradeDraft

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You're clutching at straws Dave. Several posters more in the know than us have said that Witts wants to stay in Melbourne too. He's settled here with a long term girlfriend. He doesn't want to go to Sydney.
Okay Then. I guess we hope we can get a 1st Round Pick for him off the Doggies or Tigers then
 
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