Collingwood's Kids

[Tbone McGraw]

it is an interesting topic discussing kids because do kids really win you premierships. what we have done is identify weaknesses and tried to fix them in what we believe are weak drafts.

we still have a massive premiership window with cloke, pendles, Thomas, Reid, wellers, n brown, beams, sidebottom, fasolo, Blair, wood and caff all 25 or under and all having showed something. then shaw, maxy, krak, obrien, swan, tooves are probably all here for a couple more years at least.

we need to win 1 or 2 more flags with this group then reassess our kids in about 2 or 3 years.

 

[jc37]

Just because we at the top of the ladder does not mean we are rebuilding.
Look at the players lost since 2007 when we were a kick from a GF and prob premiership.

Clement, Prestigiacomo, Davis
R Shaw, Wakelin, Burns
Lockyer, Obree, Cox
Medhurst, Rocca, Egan
BrownL, Rusling, Dick
Fraser, Buckley
Holland
Bryan, McCarthy, Stanley, Ilies

There are lot of experienced hands the pies have lost in that time but we still have a core 22 that can compete for the flag.

We needed to recruit senior players to stay competitive and get to the next level: Jolly, Ball, Krakouer, Clarke, Wood. Brown. Wood has not been a super star but it still developing into a replacement for Jolly whilst ceglar and

Hine and his team have done an excellent job.
Witts, Hartley, Young, Cribben, Keefe, Mooney have all been freebies.
Of those Witts and Young would have been drafted higher. Maybe even Hartley.
Ceglar and Elliott are two for one deals which we have needed. Yagmoor could be included in that list being a slightly downgrounded pick for which we got Paine.
Fasolo was a great get last year. Farmer and Stubbs are likely busts but given their draft position that happens. Seedsman looks like being a bargain. Good evasive skills, good overhead, reasonably quick and good foot skills. There is a lot to work with. He could turn out to be an A grader although is still a long way off.
Ugle is improving.

Our best 24 excluding macaffer and krakouer would be

Maxwell, Brown, Clarke
Obrien, Reid, Shaw
Toovey, Swan, Thomas
Fasolo, Cloke, Beams
Didak, Dawes, Tarrant
Jolly, Pendlebury, Ball
Sidebottom, Blair, Wellingham, Goldsack,
Wood, Johnson

After this we have depth issues.
Buckley, Rounds, Sinclair are only ever going to be ok and need to play a role if selected and I feel can do so.

Thomas, Keefe, Seedsman, Young have potential to be long term Magpies and potentially break into that best 24 this year adding to depth.

Ugle, Elliott, Witts, Ceglar, Hartley, Yagmoor, Cribben, Mooney and Paine should all be given time and could all play this year. Some have. The side would be improved if one of Mooney, Ugle or Elliott really stepped up this year which could happen as we need another small forward to apply pressure both defensively and on the scoreboard.

Gault will unlikely play this year as needs time
Farmer, Stubbs are busts. Williams, Smith who knows.

The fact is without Davis, Krakouer and Brown we are not as good as last year. However we need game time into our younger players some will make it some wont but i think we have 13 on the list which are a reasonably good chance.

We also have Edwards, Stewart, Moore, Haggerty, Hillman, Carracher that can been recruited above value next two years.

I think given the compromised drafts our recruiters have done an excellent job, we just need luck, patience and 4-5 of the 13 I have mentioned to step up by the end of the year to give us a real good chance for the flag this year.

 

[hellfire]

I was thinking exactly the same thing as the OP when watching the game today. Compare the players at 23-28 on our list to those on the lists of our top 4 counterparts... We are way behind. Hopefully this year kids like Rounds, Keefe, Paine, Elliot, Thomas and maybe even Williams really come along.

 

[TradeDraft]

I was thinking exactly the same thing as the OP when watching the game today. Compare the players at 23-28 on our list to those on the lists of our top 4 counterparts... We are way behind. Hopefully this year kids like Rounds, Keefe, Paine, Elliot, Thomas and maybe even Williams really come along.

I think the Problem with most of our Kids they are in the 1st or 2nd Season on the AFL List.

Don't Forget Ceglar and Ugle in the VFL

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Don't Forget Ceglar and Ugle in the VFL

How could we forget them when you constantly bring them up, especially Ceglar, as inclusions in the senior team!

 

[ipswichpies]

I was thinking exactly the same thing as the OP when watching the game today. Compare the players at 23-28 on our list to those on the lists of our top 4 counterparts... We are way behind. Hopefully this year kids like Rounds, Keefe, Paine, Elliot, Thomas and maybe even Williams really come along.

Three of those players named are 1st year players and 1 of them has even played 1st,s in their 1st year on the list as has Yagmoor also another 1st year player.

We know that if not for injuries they would not be playing 1st,s but the coaching staff see something in them,I think this season,s 1 st year boys actually look better than the ones who have been in the system for 2 or 3 years.

Fasolo and Elliott have both been part of package deals we will have to wait and see with Elliott but Fasolo is in the 1st,s and looks like staying there he also played in his 1st year in the system so Hine must be doing something right.

Being close to or in the top 4 for many years now means we have had to look at all sorts of ways and places to get young players from,we also have had to contend with compromised drafts and the club and recruiting and development staff are doing a 1st class job under the circumstances.

 

[ipswichpies]

APologies Fasolo was a pick in his own right and Ceglar was a part of a package deal,Ceglar also looks Like being a player if we can get another 10kg on him he is tracking at least as well as Wood was in his 2nd season and we did not give much for him unlike Wood.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Ceglar and Elliott can't be judged yet, but both have shown promise. Anyone taking a ruck man with their first pick is likely to be missing a bit of the excitement that comes from seeing your new gun recruit tear it up in the preseason.

We overpaid for Wood, but we at least recognized an area of dire need and addressed it. Would have been worse to do nothing, we at least had a swing and a miss.

I think Hine has done well with the picks he had. We're all happy with Fasolo, the scholarship program looks to at least have been worthwhile, and our depth would be a lot better if it weren't for a nasty run with serious injuries (Brown, MacAffer, Krakouer, Hunter).

 

[MrNatural]

Sinclair is the one that worries me the most.
Has the worst awarness ive seen in a while.
Being a small bloke, he shouldnt be getting run down by ruckman like Ivan Maric.
Needs more time in the 2s

 

[Big Bryza]

Sinclair is the one that worries me the most.
Has the worst awarness ive seen in a while.
Being a small bloke, he shouldnt be getting run down by ruckman like Ivan Maric.
Needs more time in the 2s

He always seems to get to the right spot to take a grab or crumb the footy but then goes and kicks it on the full or gets run down. He's get the first bit sorted, time will tell whether he can get the execution right.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We overpaid for Wood, but we at least recognized an area of dire need and addressed it. Would have been worse to do nothing, we at least had a swing and a miss.

Exactly, we took three swings in three successive seasons (Wood, Brown Jolly) and we kept swinging until we got it right. The concept of trading in ruckmen has been an unmitigated success.....two premiership players whilst Wood id far from a right-off as well.

 

[Selective Retention]

I know we have not had high picks but Geelong and Hawthorn have both done very well and have both been in similar positions in selecting young kids the past two years which is a huge reason why Geelong is still so powerful

We traded early picks for Jolly Ball Krak and Marty.

They are related topics

Collingwood have done two things that Geelong haven't. One they have traded the picks as mentioned above, two they have retained their players despite salary cap pressure.

Trading the picks won you guys a flag and I tell you what I would have liked to retain a few of the players we have lost.

If you look at the comparisons.

2009

Collingwood traded pick 14 for Darren Jolly, Geelong selected Daniel Menzel at pick 17.

Geelong lost Shane Mumford to Sydney and received pick 28 in return, Geelong selected Mitch Duncan at pick 28.

Collingwood picked Luke Ball at selection 30, Geelong traded pick 33 for Pick 40 (Allen Christensen), Pick 42 (Nathan Vardy) and Pick 56.

2010

Geelong lost Gary Ablett to Gold Coast and received 2x1st rounders in compensation, traded one compensation pick to Gold Coast for selection 15 and picked Billie Smedts.

Collingwood traded pick 25 for Krakouer & co, Geelong selected Cameron Guthrie at pick 23.

Geelong lost Jeremy Laidler to Carlton and received pick 37 (plus 42 to Carlton, 54 to Geelong), Geelong selected George Horlin Smith at 37.

They are the young guys that are around our team at the moment, plus Motlop who we drafted with the pick from Prismall the year before. They are all top ~30 picks so should be more advanced than guys like Seedsman, Ugle etc who are in the same band as say Cowan and Schroder for us.

It's just two different strategies for teams in two different phases. You guys have a mature young side so have tried to maximise that in the now, we have a old side and tried to maximise our access to the best kids as much as possible against the cyclical nature of the system.

I think both teams would be content with the work done over those years.

 

[SpongePie]

We also have Edwards, Stewart, Moore, Haggerty, Hillman, Carracher that can been recruited above value next two years.

Sorry, can you please explain this point?

 

[Gone Critical]

Sorry, can you please explain this point?

Players still coming on from the NSW scholarship scheme who will be available for Collingwood to preferentially draft over the next few seasons

 

[Tbone McGraw]

Collingwood have done two things that Geelong haven't. One they have traded the picks as mentioned above, two they have retained their players despite salary cap pressure.

Trading the picks won you guys a flag and I tell you what I would have liked to retain a few of the players we have lost.

If you look at the comparisons.

2009

Collingwood traded pick 14 for Darren Jolly, Geelong selected Daniel Menzel at pick 17.

Geelong lost Shane Mumford to Sydney and received pick 28 in return, Geelong selected Mitch Duncan at pick 28.

Collingwood picked Luke Ball at selection 30, Geelong traded pick 33 for Pick 40 (Allen Christensen), Pick 42 (Nathan Vardy) and Pick 56.

2010

Geelong lost Gary Ablett to Gold Coast and received 2x1st rounders in compensation, traded one compensation pick to Gold Coast for selection 15 and picked Billie Smedts.

Collingwood traded pick 25 for Krakouer & co, Geelong selected Cameron Guthrie at pick 23.

Geelong lost Jeremy Laidler to Carlton and received pick 37 (plus 42 to Carlton, 54 to Geelong), Geelong selected George Horlin Smith at 37.

They are the young guys that are around our team at the moment, plus Motlop who we drafted with the pick from Prismall the year before. They are all top ~30 picks so should be more advanced than guys like Seedsman, Ugle etc who are in the same band as say Cowan and Schroder for us.

It's just two different strategies for teams in two different phases. You guys have a mature young side so have tried to maximise that in the now, we have a old side and tried to maximise our access to the best kids as much as possible against the cyclical nature of the system.

I think both teams would be content with the work done over those years.

Great post and perspective from an opposition supporter. Credit to you.

after yesterday i have renewed respect for geelong. You just can not write this side off.

see u in the gf for a reverse of last years result.

 

[Matz]

Collingwood have done two things that Geelong haven't. One they have traded the picks as mentioned above, two they have retained their players despite salary cap pressure.

Trading the picks won you guys a flag and I tell you what I would have liked to retain a few of the players we have lost.

If you look at the comparisons.

2009

Collingwood traded pick 14 for Darren Jolly, Geelong selected Daniel Menzel at pick 17.

Geelong lost Shane Mumford to Sydney and received pick 28 in return, Geelong selected Mitch Duncan at pick 28.

Collingwood picked Luke Ball at selection 30, Geelong traded pick 33 for Pick 40 (Allen Christensen), Pick 42 (Nathan Vardy) and Pick 56.

2010

Geelong lost Gary Ablett to Gold Coast and received 2x1st rounders in compensation, traded one compensation pick to Gold Coast for selection 15 and picked Billie Smedts.

Collingwood traded pick 25 for Krakouer & co, Geelong selected Cameron Guthrie at pick 23.

Geelong lost Jeremy Laidler to Carlton and received pick 37 (plus 42 to Carlton, 54 to Geelong), Geelong selected George Horlin Smith at 37.

They are the young guys that are around our team at the moment, plus Motlop who we drafted with the pick from Prismall the year before. They are all top ~30 picks so should be more advanced than guys like Seedsman, Ugle etc who are in the same band as say Cowan and Schroder for us.

It's just two different strategies for teams in two different phases. You guys have a mature young side so have tried to maximise that in the now, we have a old side and tried to maximise our access to the best kids as much as possible against the cyclical nature of the system.

I think both teams would be content with the work done over those years.

I also agree, great post from an opposition supporter
They have recruited very well down at catland.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

just reading that cats fan post again (won't repost it), we have actually done very well in the last few years. We got jolly and ball. who won us a flag. We also are lucky that we have a young mature list which means we probably only have to top up for the next few years after keeping our stars first, thanks pendles.

Who knows what the future will bring especially with free agency. We need to somehow keep our guns and win at least 2 of the next 4 flags. I am extremely happy with where we are at the moment and will be ecstatic if we sign cloke and Reid

 

[Old Spice]

We're running on a different time-clock to Geelong.

Sagely, they have picked some young speedy role players to complement their current side. Motlop, Christensen, Duncan et al are very good finishers and role players. Geelong also wisely under Scott determined to give their young players at leat 4 games a season.

Our emptying out of @26 players over two seasons surprised me to an extent. We're in the process of replicating Geelong's strategy of list management and pumping games into our young players.

Our development is not so bad as some might think. I remember suggesting only 2 years ago that Reid would be the match-up for Franklin and that seemingly a laughable concept. Today it's not even a question.

Keeffe has shown, played in his natural position in defence, that he is already a prospect after 6 or so senior games. Paine I think has the capacity to play a role as a sneaky third tall, a la MaCaffer. At the very least he is no worse a prospect than Motlop, albeit a different type of role and player.

Young or Seedsman I think are a good chance to play a role from defence with cameos on the wing. Ugle as a forward presence.

This is the year of development we have to have. We blooded a lot more players a few years ago - some of which have gone elsewhere: McCarthy, Anthony, Dick, others who have been delisted.

The difference between Geelong's young players and ours is experience. I reckon so long as we don't get reactive and conservative, we can pump some valuable time into 6-8 players, 3-4 of which who might make it.

I'm thinking Keeffe, Young, Ugle and Seedsman are all good chances to be solid contributors over the next year or two.

 

[soreplums]

I don't see it being a major issue. Trading over the last three drafts have been justified. We will make up for any loss/perceived loss in this highly rated draft. We will use our first 2-3 picks to net us some very good young talent and we may even pick up a 19-20 year old 'mature' player in the rookie draft. We have developed our rookie players well in the past and there is no reason why we won't continue to do so (although I wouldn;t mind having Alan Richardson back.... he did wonders for our youngsters).

 

[Lockyer24]

The only possible thing I would change the last few years is Krakouer for Darling if we took a long term view. But AK did slot 3 in a GF where Darling wouldn't have fired a shot being the end of his 1st year and out of form.

Only thing to boost our future list well would be to trade key players, which is silly when in flag mode.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Outside Sinclair, I dont have an issue with any of our kids (younger players).

I think they all look like good future prospects.

Hartley, Fasolo, Keefe (despite my earlier worries), Elliott, Seedsman, Ceglar, Witts and Paine all look like they have something.

I've basically listed a spine plus a starting midfield there, so that's bodes pretty well for the future assuming all of those listed become decent players.

Remember, we're a far younger premiership side than Geelong were in 07, and we're currently tracking along the same path, so that bodes well for sustained success hopefully.

 

[MarkT2]

I like the look of Pain. I have not seen anything in anyone (not counting Ball) drafted in the last 2 years apart from Fasolo who will have a long career. If we get 2 very good players from the 2010 and 2011 drafts I'd say it is a break even given were we have finished. Provided both Fasols and Pain can be quality players and not "run of the mill" 150 gamers I'll be confortable. One or two others will likely emerge as handy players. If we get one or two more decent players and Witts becomes a quality ruckman we will be well placed. We do, however, need a better return from the 2012 draft. Now is the time for Hine to be given some picks to re-stock the list with.

 

[TradeDraft]

I like the look of Pain. I have not seen anything in anyone (not counting Ball) drafted in the last 2 years apart from Fasolo who will have a long career. If we get 2 very good players from the 2010 and 2011 drafts I'd say it is a break even given were we have finished. Provided both Fasols and Pain can be quality players and not "run of the mill" 150 gamers I'll be confortable. One or two others will likely emerge as handy players. If we get one or two more decent players and Witts becomes a quality ruckman we will be well placed. We do, however, need a better return from the 2012 draft. Now is the time for Hine to be given some picks to re-stock the list with.

Getting 150 Games out of 3rd Round Picks and Later is a Great Return.

It's Paine not Pain too mate

 

[Number 10]

Getting 150 Games out of 3rd Round Picks and Later is a Great Return.

It's Paine not Pain too mate

Receiving spelling corrections from Dave. That's when you know you're done.

 

[Trojan Pies]

Have just had a glance at the output of Travis in his first year compared to that of Paine.

While I realise that it is unreasonable to expect Paine to become Cloke, I will track his progress in line with Cloke's first year progression over the course of this year.

While Paine is not as tall as Cloke they possess a multitude of similar traits that could hopefully see Paine turn into Cloke-lite (or perhaps Diet Cloke?). Both have a strong contested marking capability, Paine has shown he has a good engine working hard around the ground and both are natural key forwards.

I have high hopes for Jackson as based upon his work ethic, you always know you'll get 100% effort and endeavour out of him... however his career turns out, you know he'll have done everything to get the best out of himself. I love this attitude about him the most.