Opinion Combined team- Lions 01-04, Cats 07-11, Hawks 12-15, Tigers 17-20.

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AndyD

All Australian
Dec 23, 2006
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The strength of Richmond is that individual players do not stand out.

In the past four years, Richmond has won 3 premierships, but finished 4th, 5th, 7th and 9th on Brownlow Medal night for most votes per club. Now either the umpires hate Richmond (the free kick differential supports this view, for those into conspiracies), or, the game style is designed to rely less on individuals. And I'd argue that Hardwick's game style is therefore more likely to allow Richmond to keep contending for years to come, as players come and go.

And therefore, I think the only Richmond player getting into this combined side would be Dusty.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the competition is 'weak', as you say. There are plenty of brilliant players in the competition. But the competition is more equal. The weakest sides of 2020 would smash the weakest sides from 2000, I'd argue. I just think the talent is more evenly spread out.
I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him


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owen87

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 23, 2016
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I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him


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I think this underrates Martin's quality a bit, but people have also forgotten just how good Voss & Black were at their best. Akermanis an absolute freak show but also comfortably makes the team as a forward.
 

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PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
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I think this underrates Martin's quality a bit, but people have also forgotten just how good Voss & Black were at their best. Akermanis an absolute freak show but also comfortably makes the team as a forward.

Voss is why I wouldn’t have Cotchin in the team over Selwood. Cotchin’s leadership qualities are clearly not in doubt, but he’s probably not the leader Voss was, so that gap is filled, and he’s not the player Selwood or Voss are/were.
 

PhatBoy

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Ottens? Instrumental and crucial in all 3 Cats premiership campaigns.

Again if this is being decided based on how they performed in finals Ottens waltzes in. He wasn’t all australian level during his time at the Cats (he made one AA side at Richmond) but his finals level was as good as any ruckman I can recall.
 

Craze

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Aug 7, 2013
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I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.
Lucky to get within 10 goals? How do you explain that Richmond regularly beat Hawthorn during their premiership years when we had Tyrone Vickery as our main forward and a stop-start game style?

Which of the Richmond players have 'very little skill'? Can you name five?

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.
I think you'd struggle to find one Hawthorn supporter to agree with you that Shane Crawford is a superior finals player than Dustin Martin, with all due respect to Crawford.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him
Okay so you're clearly taking the p155 and/or have no idea of how football works
 

kickazz

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 12, 2010
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Taggers are out of fashion, but interesting that there is no mention so far of Cameron Ling.

Sure, not in the upper echelon of the "great" players, but as someone effective at a specific role, a pretty useful inclusion.
 

Stan_Darsh72

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Taggers are out of fashion, but interesting that there is no mention so far of Cameron Ling.

Sure, not in the upper echelon of the "great" players, but as someone effective at a specific role, a pretty useful inclusion.
I feel that Bartel could do that role as a tagger.

His game on Hayes in 09 has to be the best tagging job of all time.
 

PhatBoy

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Jees, can you imagine trying to contain a forward line with Dusty, Cyril, Aker and Stevie J running around?
Would be an absolute nightmare.
Any of the key forwards of those sides - Riewoldt, Hawkins (not eligible anyway as he won 2), Roughead, Lynch etc would just be a decoy.
 

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wobblypunt

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Jun 29, 2006
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Don't think it's fair that you have to have played in 3 in your rules. It should just be who was the best and instrumental in those years. Leaving Ablett out because he only won two flags is ridiculous in my opinion.
 

Jason mp

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Don't think it's fair that you have to have played in 3 in your rules. It should just be who was the best and instrumental in those years. Leaving Ablett out because he only won two flags is ridiculous in my opinion.
Post your team in of most instrumental, criteria is not compulsory, I wont be offended, everything is fair in love and big footy. I assume Lance Franklin and Gary Ablett will be in the side.
 

Sttew

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 28, 2006
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Who's asking?
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Don't think it's fair that you have to have played in 3 in your rules. It should just be who was the best and instrumental in those years. Leaving Ablett out because he only won two flags is ridiculous in my opinion.
OP can set whatever rules he or she likes. If we don't like it we can start an alternative thread
 

Roobs321

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Out: Hale, Edwards, Breust, Grimes, Cotchin
In: Ottens, Bartel, Chapman, Lake, Roughead

FB: C. Johnson M. Scarlett B. Lake
HB: Hodge (vc) J. Leppitsch C. Enright
C: J. Akermanis D. Martin N. Lappin
HF: J. Reiwoldt J. Brown M.Voss (c)
FF: C. Rioli A. Lynch P. Chapman
Foll: B. Ottens S. Mitchell S. Black
Int: J. Bartel S. Burgoyne J. Selwood J. Roughead
Em: S. Johnson Cotchin

Have to give Roughead a spot given his 2nd ruck ability. S. Johnson/Cotchin feel like the nearest emergencies, others would be a little out of place for one reason or another.
 
Last edited:

nineteen eighty

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Sep 18, 2003
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I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him


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Can't agree with you on a number of your points. To call out one, I disagree that we only have 1 (possibly 2) standout players.

Players such as:
Martin
Edwards
Lynch
Riewoldt
Cotchin
Houli
Grimes
Bolton
Vlaustin
Short

are the best (or thereabouts) for their spot. Some of them would be standouts in other teams eg Edwards
 

nineteen eighty

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Out: Hale, Edwards, Breust, Grimes, Cotchin
In: Ottens, Bartel, Chapman, Lake, Roughead

FB: C. Johnson M. Scarlett B. Lake
HB: Hodge (vc) J. Leppitsch C. Enright
C: J. Akermanis D. Martin N. Lappin
HF: J. Reiwoldt J. Brown M.Voss (c)
FF: C. Rioli A. Lynch P. Chapman
Foll: B. Ottens S. Mitchell S. Black
Int: J. Bartel S. Burgoyne J. Selwood J. Roughead
Em: S. Johnson Cotchin

Have to give Roughead a spot given his 2nd ruck ability. S. Johnson/Cotchin feel like the nearest emergencies, others would be a little out of place for one reason or another.
Martin in the centre? That footy genius from earlier in this thread would be having conniptions when he read your post. Reckons he wouldn't even make the team.
 

Ricky Vaughn

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Feb 9, 2015
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B: Chris Johnson - Matthew Scarlett - Dylan Grimes
HB: Luke Hodge - Justin Leppistch - Corey Enright
C: Jason Akermanis - Michael Voss - Jimmy Bartel
HF: Dustin Martin - Jarryd Roughead - Steve Johnson
F: Cyril Rioli - Jack Riewoldt - Paul Chapman
R: Brad Ottens - Sam Mitchell - Joel Selwood
I: Shaun Burgoyne - Nigel Lappin - Jonathan Brown - Simon Black

2’s is still solid

B: Grant Birchall - Brian Lake - Bachar Houli
HB: Andrew Mackie - Josh Gibson - Nick Vlastuin
C: Isaac Smith - Jordan Lewis - Shane Edwards
HF: Luke Power - Jack Gunston - James Kelly
F: Luke Bruest - Alastair Lynch - Shaun Hart
R: Toby Nankervis - Joel Corey - Trent Cotchin
I: Darryl White - Martin Pike - Cameron Ling - Brad Hill

likely forgotten a few.
 

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