Opinion Combined team- Lions 01-04, Cats 07-11, Hawks 12-15, Tigers 17-20.

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Hot Diggity

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Jun 19, 2020
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My response was directed to that posters idiotic post who wanted to take a pot shot at a 3x premiership side ETC....

But to answer your question...

With these teams its always a lottery on who to pick. Depending on the match ups of who this imaginary team will be up against.

And more importantly its all going to come down to team balance and what are required to work the TEAM GAME PLAN. not so simple now......

So, you may need more feeders like Edwards, or grunt players, or speed ETC. cant have the same type of players.

Team may need a Rance.
Edwards could be that feeder.
Houli could be that running back.
Vlaustin could be that general intercept player if required.


Richmond Team just proved something, that you can have roll players that mix better than superstars.
Case in point is id rather have Edwards then Danger, or Vlaustin than Danger. Better fit for our team.

Ps I did not read his criteria. lol
I'd have most over Dangerfield. Selfish flog who wilts under the biggest pressure.

He doesn't hold a candle to Bartel, Johnson, Chapman etc. - those guys wouldn't put up with his sh*t.
 

PCORF

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Jul 3, 2007
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Let me take 5 players from each of these teams

Lions: Akermanis, Voss, Black, Lynch, Brown
Geelong: Ablett, Selwood, Hawkins, Scarlett, Chapman
Hawthorn: Lake, Hodge, Franklin, Rioli, S.Mitchell
Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt, Houli
 

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Sirlemsip

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Let me take 5 players from each of these teams

Lions: Akermanis, Voss, Black, Lynch, Brown
Geelong: Ablett, Selwood, Hawkins, Scarlett, Chapman
Hawthorn: Lake, Hodge, Franklin, Rioli, S.Mitchell
Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt, Houli
Assuming we are ignoring the 'played in the GFs' rule, you do do get to add in Franklin, Rance and Ablett (who would obviously make the 'best of' team)
I think it should be something more like:

Lions: Akermanis, Voss, Black, Lappin, Leppitsch
Geelong: Ablett, Selwood, Stevie J, Scarlett, Enright
Hawthorn: Lake, Hodge, Franklin, Rioli, S.Mitchell
Richmond: Martin, Cotchin, Rance, Riewoldt, Houli

I think Brown is overrated for his output in 2001/2/3. Lappin and Leppitsch were far better players and more important to their threepeat.
Hawkins the same - Stevie J and Enright both more deserving for input over those years.

Gunston would struggle to make a 2nd 22. Embarrassing.

Jack and Franklin are the best 2 from the four sides. Toss up between Roughead and Brown/Lynch for 3-5th.
Nobody is saying J. Riewoldt is a bad player. He was a star for a long time and essential to the 2017 flag.
However, a witches hat would have done the job in 2019, and he was only a role player in 2020.

Gunston was essential to each of the three Hawks flags, and he also has utility to play elsewhere on the field if needed (HB or even wing)
 

PhatBoy

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I'd have most over Dangerfield. Selfish flog who wilts under the biggest pressure.

He doesn't hold a candle to Bartel, Johnson, Chapman etc. - those guys wouldn't put up with his sh*t.

Dangerfield's career disposal average: 23.99
Dangerfield's finals average: 24.42
Dangerfield's career goal average: 1.1 goal per game
Dangerfield's finals goal average: 1.1 goal per game
Dangerfield's career tackling average: 3. 85 per game
Dangerfield's finals tackling average: 3.6 per game
Dangerfield's career contested possession average: 13.5 per game
Dangerfield's finals contested possession average: 13.3 per game

Gee you'd almost swear blind that he plays at the same level in big games as he does normally.

But hey, the figures don't lie - he clearly just goes missing in every final he plays.

FMD at what stage will people realise: Yes it is the mark of a great player that they produce in big games. No player has ever ever produced their best in EVERY big game they play. We are witnessing someone very close to it in Martin, it doesn't somehow mean everyone else is s*** if they have a bad game.

Stop perpetuating the non-existent narrative simply because you don't like the guy.
 

Fadge

Norm Smith Medallist
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Agreed. Still think Geelong 07-11 slightly underrated - at its best would match any side. Guns all over the place.
Agree.

Geelong of 07 - 11 is the best team of the four 'dynasty teams' since the turn of the century.

105 wins from 125 matches over that 5 year stretch is head and shoulders above the next best.

Additionally, 3 of those 20 losses came in the first five rounds of 2007 😮
 

PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
May 5, 2016
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Agree.

Geelong of 07 - 11 is the best team of the four 'dynasty teams' since the turn of the century.

105 wins from 125 matches over that 5 year stretch is head and shoulders above the next best.

Additionally, 3 of those 20 losses came in the first five rounds of 2007 😮

From memory the third of them was against North, at the Cattery. After the disappointment of the year before, I think every Cats fan by that point had just thrown their hands in the air and thought 'well here we are again.' Then bang.
 

Underarm

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 13, 2011
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Nobody is saying J. Riewoldt is a bad player. He was a star for a long time and essential to the 2017 flag.
However, a witches hat would have done the job in 2019, and he was only a role player in 2020.

Gunston was essential to each of the three Hawks flags, and he also has utility to play elsewhere on the field if needed (HB or even wing)
In the last 4 years, Jack has a Coleman, the Club goal kicking 3/4 times (including 2020), an AA and a Best and Fairest. from 12-15, Gunston has 1 Club goalkicking award.

A combined side of the 4 premierships eras mentioned has him as the 2nd best Forward.
 

SSSSSS

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In the last 4 years, Jack has a Coleman, the Club goal kicking 3/4 times (including 2020), an AA and a Best and Fairest. from 12-15, Gunston has 1 Club goalkicking award.

A combined side of the 4 premierships eras mentioned has him as the 2nd best Forward.
No way Riewoldt would be the 2nd best forward and that is no disrespect to him.

Roughead averaged 60 goals a season in our 3peat side (also including 2012) at 2.5 goals a game (while rucking).
Gunston averaging 50 goals during the same period of time at 2.2 goals per game (as third fiddle in his first two years).
Riewoldt averaged 44 goals from 2017-2020 with 2.2 goals per game.

Hard to make a case of Riewoldt being ahead of either of these players and he's certainly not ahead of Lynch/Franklin either. I could MAYBE concede Gunston (if I was being generous) but there is no way he is displacing Roughead.
 

PhatBoy

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In the last 4 years, Jack has a Coleman, the Club goal kicking 3/4 times (including 2020), an AA and a Best and Fairest. from 12-15, Gunston has 1 Club goalkicking award.

A combined side of the 4 premierships eras mentioned has him as the 2nd best Forward.

Jack Gunston played with 2 other coleman medalists.

Jack Gunston averages 3 goals per game in his 4 grand finals. Jack Riewoldt averages 2.6
Jack Gunston averages 2.3 goals per final. Jack Riewoldt averages 2.
Jack Gunston has averages of 2.05, 2.00, 2.52, 2.38 goals per game across the four seasons 2012-2015
Jack Riewoldt has averages of 2.35, 2.92, 1.8 and 1.5 goals per game across his four seasons 2017-2020

I think you are grossly overstating how much 'better' Riewoldt apparently has been in his primary role as a goalkicker.

Hell, Gunston also contributed 67 goal assists in his four seasons. Riewoldt who is, rightly, lauded, for what he does to help others kick goals, has 51 assists from 80 games. So Gunston covers him there too.
 

PhatBoy

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Franklin, Reiwoldt, Brown in the first side
Roughead, Lynch, Mooney in the 2nd side.

Tom Lynch, Gunston, Podsiadly, Bradshaw as the next 4.

Lolllllll Mooney ahead of Gunston. Yeah ok.

You realise Brown kicked 68 goals across those three premiership seasons don't you? For perspective, Tom Hawkins who you haven't even mentioned (I thought it might be because he only played in 2 flags but then noticed you've mentioned Mooney and Podsiadly) kicked that many in his third full season as a permanent forward.
 

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Underarm

Norm Smith Medallist
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Lolllllll Mooney ahead of Gunston. Yeah ok.

You realise Brown kicked 68 goals across those three premiership seasons don't you? For perspective, Tom Hawkins who you haven't even mentioned (I thought it might be because he only played in 2 flags but then noticed you've mentioned Mooney and Podsiadly) kicked that many in his third full season as a permanent forward.
Fair enough. Think of that as who the best would be if you factor the entire career.

Team 1: Buddy, Jack, Rough
team 2: Lynch, Brown, Gunston.

he's no higher than 6th best forward no matter how you look at it.
 

PhatBoy

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Fair enough. Think of that as who the best would be if you factor the entire career.

Team 1: Buddy, Jack, Rough
team 2: Lynch, Brown, Gunston.

he's no higher than 6th best forward no matter how you look at it.
Considering he's spent his career sharing a forward line with Franklin, Roughead and Breust, I'd say his average of 2.6 goals contributed per game (assists plus goals) he's very much in the mix. And while I rate him highly I think you're making a pretty big assumption that Riewoldt is just an automatic in there. He has contributed 3.11 goals per game over his career, Hawkins for an obvious example 3.0..... However Hawkins wasn't even a permanent forward until Mooney retired. Bradshaw's goal kicking figures aren't dissimilar to Riewoldt's, sharing a forward line with Lynch and Brown. I think you think this is way more black and white than it actually is.
 

SSSSSS

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Fair enough. Think of that as who the best would be if you factor the entire career.

Team 1: Buddy, Jack, Rough
team 2: Lynch, Brown, Gunston.

he's no higher than 6th best forward no matter how you look at it.
Team 1: Buddy, A.Lynch (just so there is absolutely no confusion), Rough.
Team 2: Brown, Gunston, Riewoldt

I just see no statistical basis for Riewoldt in the first team and as good as he is (was?) he doesn't pass the eye-test ahead of the first three either.
 

Sirlemsip

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Fair enough. Think of that as who the best would be if you factor the entire career.

Team 1: Buddy, Jack, Rough
team 2: Lynch, Brown, Gunston.

he's no higher than 6th best forward no matter how you look at it.
If you factor in 'entire career' then Brown has J.Riewoldt covered. Though if we only consider their performance in premiership years i accept that Jack was better than Brown.

I'm not arguing that Gunston is 'better' than Jack in the FF position, because he is not.

However, if you are picking a cohesive team from all of the forwards in the 4 'dynasty' teams, then Jack doesn't make it into the team in his position.

Clearly Buddy is the best forward of this generation.
I would take Roughead and A.Lynch over Jack at FF/CHF.
I would take Gunston and Stevie J over Jack on a flank.
 

Underarm

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Team 1: Buddy, A.Lynch (just so there is absolutely no confusion), Rough.
Team 2: Brown, Gunston, Riewoldt

I just see no statistical basis for Riewoldt in the first team and as good as he is (was?) he doesn't pass the eye-test ahead of the first three either.
I'm not a fan of comparing stats from one year to another. I think the best way is to compare them to their peers at the time. But even inlcuding statistics he matches up pretty well despite the lower scoring period.

Coleman Medals
Franklin 4
Reiwoldt 3
Brown 1

AA
Franklin:8
Reiwoldt: 3
Brown: 2
Roughead:2
Gunston:1
Lynch: 1 (1993)

Club Best and Fairest

Brown: 3
Reiwoldt: 2
Franklin:1
Gunston:1
Roughead:0
Lynch:0

"but it was harder to win Colemans since players kicked more goals in the 2000's"

So their goals kicked are higher then? lets see:

Goals kicked:
Franklin: 944(300gm) 3.1
Reiwoldt: 662(282) 2.3
A.Lynch: 633(306)2.1
J. Brown:594(256)2.3
J. Roughead:578(283)2.0
D. Bradshaw: 524(231)2.3
J. Gunston:398(208) 1.9

50+ Goals in a season
Franklin:11
Reiwoldt: 8
Lynch:6
Brown:4
Gunston: 4

If 2020 was a full season, Jack's tally could be as high as 51 for the year.
Bradshaw and Gunston flourished when they were taking the 3rd best key back. Sometimes even 4th when you factor in Cyril. He's been shown up in the last 2 years without them.
 
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Underarm

Norm Smith Medallist
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If you factor in 'entire career' then Brown has J.Riewoldt covered. Though if we only consider their performance in premiership years i accept that Jack was better than Brown.

I'm not arguing that Gunston is 'better' than Jack in the FF position, because he is not.

However, if you are picking a cohesive team from all of the forwards in the 4 'dynasty' teams, then Jack doesn't make it into the team in his position.

Clearly Buddy is the best forward of this generation.
I would take Roughead and A.Lynch over Jack at FF/CHF.
I would take Gunston and Stevie J over Jack on a flank.
In that case I'd be picking Roughead as 3rd tall/2nd ruck and Reiwoldt at FF.
 

rogiebear93

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I'm not a fan of comparing stats from one year to another. I think the best way is to compare them to their peers at the time. But even inlcuding statistics he matches up pretty well despite the lower scoring period.

Coleman Medals
Franklin 4
Reiwoldt 3
Brown 1

AA
Franklin:8
Reiwoldt: 3
Brown: 2
Roughead:2
Gunston:1
Lynch: 1 (1993)

Club Best and Fairest

Brown: 3
Reiwoldt: 2
Franklin:1
Gunston:1
Roughead:0
Lynch:0

"but it was harder to win Colemans since players kicked more goals in the 2000's"

So their goals kicked are higher then? lets see:

Goals kicked:
Franklin: 944(300gm) 3.1
Reiwoldt: 662(282) 2.3
A.Lynch: 633(306)2.1
J. Brown:594(256)2.3
J. Roughead:578(283)2.0
D. Bradshaw: 524(231)2.3
J. Gunston:398(208) 1.9

50+ Goals in a season
Franklin:11
Reiwoldt: 8
Lynch:6
Brown:4
Gunston: 4

If 2020 was a full season, Jack's tally could be as high as 51 for the year.
Bradshaw and Gunston flourished when they were taking the 3rd best key back. Sometimes even 4th when you factor in Cyril. He's been shown up in the last 2 years without them.
All of Lynch, Roughead, Gunston and Bradshaw have played large chunks of various seasons not in the forward line whereas Reiwoldt was plonked at FF as the sole goal kicking option for Richmond in all those years you were terrible. A fine example of his impact is the fact that he won a Coleman Medal and was omitted from the AA squad. In fact - he was seen as a selfish forward for a very long time, and only started to become a real stand out when he copied the way Roughead played FF and used tap work to get your smalls involved at the fall of the ball.

Gunston, shown up? He was third in the Coleman without them this year despite playing multiple games in defense. He was an AA as recently as 2018 without them or whilst being the first option ahead of a cooked Roughy.
 

PhatBoy

Brownlow Medallist
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I'm not a fan of comparing stats from one year to another. I think the best way is to compare them to their peers at the time. But even inlcuding statistics he matches up pretty well despite the lower scoring period.

Coleman Medals
Franklin 4
Reiwoldt 3
Brown 1

AA
Franklin:8
Reiwoldt: 3
Brown: 2
Roughead:2
Gunston:1
Lynch: 1 (1993)

Club Best and Fairest

Brown: 3
Reiwoldt: 2
Franklin:1
Gunston:1
Roughead:0
Lynch:0

"but it was harder to win Colemans since players kicked more goals in the 2000's"

So their goals kicked are higher then? lets see:

Goals kicked:
Franklin: 944(300gm) 3.1
Reiwoldt: 662(282) 2.3
A.Lynch: 633(306)2.1
J. Brown:594(256)2.3
J. Roughead:578(283)2.0
D. Bradshaw: 524(231)2.3
J. Gunston:398(208) 1.9

50+ Goals in a season
Franklin:11
Reiwoldt: 8
Lynch:6
Brown:4
Gunston: 4

If 2020 was a full season, Jack's tally could be as high as 51 for the year.
Bradshaw and Gunston flourished when they were taking the 3rd best key back. Sometimes even 4th when you factor in Cyril. He's been shown up in the last 2 years without them.

There is literally a player from Riewoldt's OWN era who has comparable figures and your love for him seems to blind you to it.

Club B and F: Hawkins 1, possibly 2 by tomorrow (Guthrie is his biggest danger)

Goals kicked: Hawkins 602 (276) 2.2 per game

50+ goal seasons: Hawkins, 6 - plus 3 others of 46, 49 and 48 (this year - obviously would have been closer to 60+ in a full season).

All Australian selections: Hawkins, 3

Coleman Medals: Hawkins 1

I am not even saying the Geelong player is better than Jack. But he's more or less matched him statistically - and gives off more goals as well - having played across the exact same era, despite conceding 5 seasons where he either was a back-up forward or playing as a ruck-forward.

So if he can be argued as being the inferior or at least neck-and-neck level with player as one of his own contemporaries, how do you just automatically say "yep, he's better than all these other guys before him as well and just walks in."
 

SSSSSS

Brownlow Medallist
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In that case I'd be picking Roughead as 3rd tall/2nd ruck and Reiwoldt at FF.
There is no way Riewoldt displaces Lynch, the 3x leading goalkicker and full forward for arguably the greatest side of the four teams we are combining.
 

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