Opinion Combined team- Lions 01-04, Cats 07-11, Hawks 12-15, Tigers 17-20.

Remove this Banner Ad

Craze said:
The strength of Richmond is that individual players do not stand out.

In the past four years, Richmond has won 3 premierships, but finished 4th, 5th, 7th and 9th on Brownlow Medal night for most votes per club. Now either the umpires hate Richmond (the free kick differential supports this view, for those into conspiracies), or, the game style is designed to rely less on individuals. And I'd argue that Hardwick's game style is therefore more likely to allow Richmond to keep contending for years to come, as players come and go.

And therefore, I think the only Richmond player getting into this combined side would be Dusty.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the competition is 'weak', as you say. There are plenty of brilliant players in the competition. But the competition is more equal. The weakest sides of 2020 would smash the weakest sides from 2000, I'd argue. I just think the talent is more evenly spread out.
Click to expand...

I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
AndyD said:
I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I think this underrates Martin's quality a bit, but people have also forgotten just how good Voss & Black were at their best. Akermanis an absolute freak show but also comfortably makes the team as a forward.
 
Dr Awkward said:
I think Bartel, Johnson and Chapman would find their way into this side.

No champion ruckman in any side, but I'd have Nankervis ahead of Hale.
Click to expand...
Ottens? Instrumental and crucial in all 3 Cats premiership campaigns.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

owen87 said:
I think this underrates Martin's quality a bit, but people have also forgotten just how good Voss & Black were at their best. Akermanis an absolute freak show but also comfortably makes the team as a forward.
Click to expand...


Voss is why I wouldn’t have Cotchin in the team over Selwood. Cotchin’s leadership qualities are clearly not in doubt, but he’s probably not the leader Voss was, so that gap is filled, and he’s not the player Selwood or Voss are/were.
 
Sttew said:
Ottens? Instrumental and crucial in all 3 Cats premiership campaigns.
Click to expand...


Again if this is being decided based on how they performed in finals Ottens waltzes in. He wasn’t all australian level during his time at the Cats (he made one AA side at Richmond) but his finals level was as good as any ruckman I can recall.
 
B: M Scarlett - D Grimes - C Enright
HB: S Burgoyne - J Leppitsch - L Hodge
C: N Lappin - S Mitchell - J Bartel
HF: D Martin - J Brown - S Johnson
F: C Rioli - J Riewoldt - P Chapman
R: B Ottens - M Voss - J Selwood
I: T Cotchin - S Burgoyne - L Power - J Akermanis

6 Lions
7 Cats
5 Hawks
4 Tigers
 
AndyD said:
I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.
Click to expand...

Lucky to get within 10 goals? How do you explain that Richmond regularly beat Hawthorn during their premiership years when we had Tyrone Vickery as our main forward and a stop-start game style?

Which of the Richmond players have 'very little skill'? Can you name five?

AndyD said:
On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.
Click to expand...

I think you'd struggle to find one Hawthorn supporter to agree with you that Shane Crawford is a superior finals player than Dustin Martin, with all due respect to Crawford.

AndyD said:
Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him
Click to expand...

Okay so you're clearly taking the p155 and/or have no idea of how football works
 
AndyD said:
On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench
Click to expand...


Come one mate.

Three Norm Smiths. OK probably shouldn't have got he first one, but the third one was one of the great GF performances. I'd have him HFF.
 
kickazz said:
Taggers are out of fashion, but interesting that there is no mention so far of Cameron Ling.

Sure, not in the upper echelon of the "great" players, but as someone effective at a specific role, a pretty useful inclusion.
Click to expand...
I feel that Bartel could do that role as a tagger.

His game on Hayes in 09 has to be the best tagging job of all time.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Don't think it's fair that you have to have played in 3 in your rules. It should just be who was the best and instrumental in those years. Leaving Ablett out because he only won two flags is ridiculous in my opinion.
 
wobblypunt said:
Don't think it's fair that you have to have played in 3 in your rules. It should just be who was the best and instrumental in those years. Leaving Ablett out because he only won two flags is ridiculous in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Post your team in of most instrumental, criteria is not compulsory, I wont be offended, everything is fair in love and big footy. I assume Lance Franklin and Gary Ablett will be in the side.
 
wobblypunt said:
Don't think it's fair that you have to have played in 3 in your rules. It should just be who was the best and instrumental in those years. Leaving Ablett out because he only won two flags is ridiculous in my opinion.
Click to expand...
OP can set whatever rules he or she likes. If we don't like it we can start an alternative thread
 
Out: Hale, Edwards, Breust, Grimes, Cotchin
In: Ottens, Bartel, Chapman, Lake, Roughead

FB: C. Johnson M. Scarlett B. Lake
HB: Hodge (vc) J. Leppitsch C. Enright
C: J. Akermanis D. Martin N. Lappin
HF: J. Reiwoldt J. Brown M.Voss (c)
FF: C. Rioli A. Lynch P. Chapman
Foll: B. Ottens S. Mitchell S. Black
Int: J. Bartel S. Burgoyne J. Selwood J. Roughead
Em: S. Johnson Cotchin

Have to give Roughead a spot given his 2nd ruck ability. S. Johnson/Cotchin feel like the nearest emergencies, others would be a little out of place for one reason or another.
 
Last edited:
AndyD said:
I think at their primes, Richmond would be lucky to get within 50 points of all of those sides, much for the reasons you mentioned. The game style Richmond employs relies very little on individual skill and entirely on pressure and scragging off the ball. The scragging puts the umpires in the position of having to slow down the game by calling 50 free kicks against, or just pay the super egregious ones. The game then gets reduced down to who can force the ball closer to their goal and make the most of their shots at goal and less on individual talent. That is why Martin (and to a lesser degree Cotchin) stand out so much, because their is very little stand out talent in the side, which highlights the ones that do.

On topic, I would think that Martin would be the only player that would fit into a combined side, and even then most likely on the bench (especially if you expand the criteria to include the 08 Hawks team which brings someone like Crawford into play). And that’s even when classifying players like Aker/Lappin as flank/pockets and not midfielders. At his prime, I don’t think Martin beats out Voss, Black, Ablett, Selwood, Mitchell, Hodge (or Crawford) at their primes for a spot in the midfield. As a small/mid sized forward, Chapman, Stevie J, Gunston, Aker (personally would have him in the forward line in this hypothetical because the backline would be so stacked) would all be ahead of him. I have no idea how anybody would want a current Richmond player to replace any one of Mal Michael, Justin Leppitsch, the Scott’s, Scarlett, Engright, Taylor, Lake, Burgoyne, Croad (again if including the 2008 Hawks), Gibson.

Maybe if Bevo was coach of this side he’d have Dusty in the ruck because that’s the weakest side, but a combo of Ottens/Hale would do decent against pretty much any other team over the same time period. That’s about 26 players I’ve mentioned, without worrying about Key Forwards like Franklin, Lynch & Hawkins. Outside of Gunston, I would have a hard time having Dustin Martin in my team ahead of anybody I’ve named above. This is not to say that Martin is undeserving of the awards that he has won because he is clearly not. But I think anybody who saw them play would take Voss/Black etc over him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Can't agree with you on a number of your points. To call out one, I disagree that we only have 1 (possibly 2) standout players.

Players such as:
Martin
Edwards
Lynch
Riewoldt
Cotchin
Houli
Grimes
Bolton
Vlaustin
Short

are the best (or thereabouts) for their spot. Some of them would be standouts in other teams eg Edwards
 
Roobs321 said:
Out: Hale, Edwards, Breust, Grimes, Cotchin
In: Ottens, Bartel, Chapman, Lake, Roughead

FB: C. Johnson M. Scarlett B. Lake
HB: Hodge (vc) J. Leppitsch C. Enright
C: J. Akermanis D. Martin N. Lappin
HF: J. Reiwoldt J. Brown M.Voss (c)
FF: C. Rioli A. Lynch P. Chapman
Foll: B. Ottens S. Mitchell S. Black
Int: J. Bartel S. Burgoyne J. Selwood J. Roughead
Em: S. Johnson Cotchin

Have to give Roughead a spot given his 2nd ruck ability. S. Johnson/Cotchin feel like the nearest emergencies, others would be a little out of place for one reason or another.
Click to expand...

Martin in the centre? That footy genius from earlier in this thread would be having conniptions when he read your post. Reckons he wouldn't even make the team.
 
B: Chris Johnson - Matthew Scarlett - Dylan Grimes
HB: Luke Hodge - Justin Leppistch - Corey Enright
C: Jason Akermanis - Michael Voss - Jimmy Bartel
HF: Dustin Martin - Jarryd Roughead - Steve Johnson
F: Cyril Rioli - Jack Riewoldt - Paul Chapman
R: Brad Ottens - Sam Mitchell - Joel Selwood
I: Shaun Burgoyne - Nigel Lappin - Jonathan Brown - Simon Black

2’s is still solid

B: Grant Birchall - Brian Lake - Bachar Houli
HB: Andrew Mackie - Josh Gibson - Nick Vlastuin
C: Isaac Smith - Jordan Lewis - Shane Edwards
HF: Luke Power - Jack Gunston - James Kelly
F: Luke Bruest - Alastair Lynch - Shaun Hart
R: Toby Nankervis - Joel Corey - Trent Cotchin
I: Darryl White - Martin Pike - Cameron Ling - Brad Hill

likely forgotten a few.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Zevon
  • Sticky
  • Poll
Game Day AFL 2024 Round 6 - Lions v Cats Sat April 20th 7:30pm AEST (Gabba)
2 3
Replies
54
Views
2K
Xtreme
Xtreme
C
Combined Best 22 of dynasty teams in 21st century
18 19 20 21 22
Replies
534
Views
14K
doppleganger
doppleganger
Mr Meeseeks
Umpiring Easter Monday 2024 Cats v Hawks Umpire Chat
2
Replies
25
Views
739
Footy_Fan2007
Footy_Fan2007
Chief
News AFL Teams Round 15, 2023
Replies
0
Views
330
Chief
Chief
Chief
News AFL Teams Rd 17
Replies
1
Views
239
Chief
Chief
Wosh
  • Poll
Autopsy AFL 2024 Round 3 - Hawks v Cats Mon April 1st 3:20pm AEDT (MCG)
41 42 43 44 45
Replies
1K
Views
20K
hawksalltheway
hawksalltheway
RUNVS
  • Poll
Best All Australian team in the last 20 years?
Replies
10
Views
685
Rustin Cohle
Rustin Cohle

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top