Opinion Commentary & Media II

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wandering123

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wandering123

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The narrative regarding Barry Halls terrible comment has moved to murder, rape and domestic violence.
I've never liked the guy, ever.
But I doubt he'd beat up on a woman or forcefully impose himself on one.
Humans make mistakes and most are accountable via consequence and feelings of shame.
Modern society has a habit of blowing out issues further then what they need to be.


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The issue isn't whether Barry Hall would assault someone. The issue is that Barry Hall making those kind of comments normalises that behaviour for someone that could or would assault someone.
 

Royal Flush

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The issue isn't whether Barry Hall would assault someone. The issue is that Barry Hall making those kind of comments normalises that behaviour for someone that could or would assault someone.
That's a long bow.
Over zealous judgment of questionable behavior.
Keeping in context, I think it's very poor Form and the penalty justified and I'm certain in proportion to his behavior.

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Jindrrk

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Thewlis Dish

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It's not though. It's why an incident like Eurydice Dixon sparks a conversation about men as a whole; because we all do little things, or bigger things on a daily basis that contribute to an overall problem. That doesn't mean every single male is a potential rapist and every single joke has darker implications, but it all matters.

There might have been someone who has experienced sexual assault listening who doesn't know who Barry Hall is - how would she take that?
 

the big lebowski

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It's not though. It's why an incident like Eurydice Dixon sparks a conversation about men as a whole; because we all do little things, or bigger things on a daily basis that contribute to an overall problem. That doesn't mean every single male is a potential rapist and every single joke has darker implications, but it all matters.

There might have been someone who has experienced sexual assault listening who doesn't know who Barry Hall is - how would she take that?
I’m happy for jokes about rape, bashing and murder to be a thing of the past. But I read that a sexist joke normalises the bashing and rape of a woman, which is just plain stupid.

Just like a work colleague saying “I could kill him/her for not finishing that report” doesn’t normalise murder. Or the film crazy rich Asians doesn’t normalise being racist to Asians. Or a frustrated mum saying she could give her kids away doesn’t normalise child abuse.

Society has identified an issue. And we can work on solving it together. But alienating people with over the top PC won’t help.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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Well... considering 1 in 3 Australian women have been subject to abuse and 1 in 5 Australian women have been sexually abused, I would suggest that its not a small minority. No doubt it is a minority, but it's unlikely that it's as small as what you think. I think the #notallmen sentiment is largely unhelpful in any case, because no one is actually asserting that all men are violent.

However, there are certainly issues with "toxic masculinity". When the term "toxic masculinity" is used, it doesn't mean that masculinity is bad. It means that certain elements of what society encourages of men are inherently toxic. These include encouraging men to be violent and unemotional. This is what needs to be rectified. There should be absolutely no circumstances when men are encouraged to act with violence towards anyone.
Modern society making men more toxic, surely you are kidding?

Modern society has never been so heavily feminized and PC orientated as it is now, for good or for worse. The swift action against Barry Hall is an example of this. They are removing grid girls and all over things that made man more sexualised and what you say produces 'toxic' elements in masculinity. Men have always encouraged to be alpha males since ancient societies as that is in their nature and that competition to be on top can bring aggression with it. Male violence has always been an issue as men were expected to be dispensable warriors since warfare and organised societies have been around, which caused a lot of domestic and self-abuse issues for scarred war veterans returning home. You can argue video games and movies make men more toxic and violent, but studies have shown that they have had very little to no effect on males and females.

Modern society and laws are now orientated towards reducing and eliminating domestic violence, there are vast ad campaigns and there are plenty of men and women (1 in 3 men are victims of family abuse) who need an attitude adjustment, it looks like society creating 'toxic' males isn't the problem. Men are actively encouraged to be emotional and seek help.

The primary issue with modern masculinity is that men are caught between two sets of standards, traditional masculinity (biologically based) and modern societal expectations, in particular expectations of financial prowess being linked to male self-worth.

Society is at fault for high suicide rates and causing mental health problems leading to things like family/domestic violence, but not responsible for 'toxic masculinity' causing high levels of domestic violence, which is a narrow-minded view tbh.


Yeah as a middle aged middle class white male I reckon I’m the victim here.
I know you are taking the piss and we should feel privileged, but suicide has jumped 24%+ since in men aged 45-64 since 1999 in the USA and it's similar to other Western societies. Clearly something is wrong with society as male biology has always been the same, only society has changed and so suicide has increased, there are clearly issues for us males to work through. Just because you may be doing well, doesn't mean a lot of men and women aren’t suffering.

My apologies for being a downer, but I felt it was point worth making.
 
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Thewlis Dish

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I’m happy for jokes about rape, bashing and murder to be a thing of the past. But I read that a sexist joke normalises the bashing and rape of a woman, which is just plain stupid.
Applying an all or nothing approach to jokes doesn't really help. A joke can contribute to the normalisation of sexism/domestic violence/rape without directly normalising it.

I've told and laughed at jokes where the punchline is based on race and demographic. That doesn't mean I am outwardly racist, but it does mean I contribute to the casually racist culture of Australia.
 

ferball

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I can see where you're coming from guys but I think she's just making a thought-provoking comment here, nothing more.
I don't think that much of her comment. I think she's obviously wrong. And she gets worse.

"Inciting laughter" as she says further down the comment thread is just an Orwellian use of language.

Using laughter to incite hatred is a valid use of the word incite. Trying to describe anything as "inciting" laughter is another thing altogether. The word incite does not mean "arouse" as she suggest especially in a legal context. Its got a specific legal meaning - effectively it means encouraging, provoking or goading other people into criminal activity.

When its not used in legal circumstances it still has a prejudice that implies encouraging a negative, dangerous or evil thing. So using the term incite wrt laughter is scary. There's all sorts of ****** up going on there. I know its pedantic but how you think literally structures how you interact with the world and process it and the specific words and phrases you think with determine how you think.

She said this:

"What makes this demonstrably worse than Eddie’s comments about Caroline Wilson or his remarks about Adam Goodes advertising King Kong? That’s a genuine question."

As has been mentioned its a joke about sexual assault.

How is it worse? ****en What?
 

the big lebowski

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Applying an all or nothing approach to jokes doesn't really help. A joke can contribute to the normalisation of sexism/domestic violence/rape without directly normalising it.

I've told and laughed at jokes where the punchline is based on race and demographic. That doesn't mean I am outwardly racist, but it does mean I contribute to the casually racist culture of Australia.
As I said jokes about rape etc aren’t right, but if I make a joke about women’s driving or how much they shop, I refuse to accept that I am normalising a man bashing his wife.

Just like I can watch a movie and seperate its content from reality. Or play grand theft auto and not engage in real life car jackings etc.

I have a wideish circle of friends that make jokes about all manner of things. Including sexist jokes or sexual jokes about women. Not one of them thinks it’s ok to beat up or rape women. I have a wide group of female friends. They make jokes about their sex lives all the time, joke about men, about each other and females in general. None of them think it’s ok or normal to be beat up or raped by a guy.

If a man thinks it’s ok to beat up, rape or murder a woman, he’s got much bigger problems and inbuilt issues than hearing a joke about a chick with a great rack or similar.

Once again this whole line of thinking is based on giving violent people an out. Oh it’s society that makes me think it’s ok to bash people. Oh I heard a joke about women applying make up so I can rape the next girl I see.

Please.

It’s the same outs we give drug addicts that commit crimes and a whole range of other wankers that drag our society down.
 

Royal Flush

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One particular point, society normalizing the alpha male.
From my understanding a dick head and alpha male are two different things.
Alpha males are not gassed up gym junkies, or pissed guy trying to out do a group of mates by doing something stupid.
Am alpha male is a natrualy confident individual with tact, emotional intelligent and desire for success. You can look at CEOs or elite footballers that are positive role models.
They are not thugs that loose their ****.


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Jabba the Trump

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Modern society making men more toxic, surely you are kidding?

Modern society has never been so heavily feminized and PC orientated as it is now, for good or for worse. The swift action against Barry Hall is an example of this. They are removing grid girls and all over things that made man more sexualised and what you say produces 'toxic' elements in masculinity. Men have always encouraged to be alpha males since ancient societies as that is in their nature and that brings aggression with it. Male violence has always been an issue as men were expected to be dispensable warriors since warfare and organised societies have been around, which caused a lot of domestic and self-abuse issues for scarred war veterans returning home. You can argue video games and movies make men more toxic and violent, but studies have shown that they have had very little to no effect on males and females.
Just for the record, it is rare for the alpha male within a group within nature to be the most aggressive or violent. The alpha is the leader who offers safety and protection and leadership to the whole group. If any individual threatens the safety of the group through aggressive behaviour, he or she will not be followed and will often be expelled. Or impeached.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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Just for the record, it is rare for the alpha male within a group within nature to be the most aggressive or violent. The alpha is the leader who offers safety and protection and leadership to the whole group. If any individual threatens the safety of the group through aggressive behaviour, he or she will not be followed and will often be expelled. Or impeached.
I meant the competition to be the alpha, not the alpha himself, I should have been clearer.

Alpha’s are the leaders, those aspiring to be leader’s breeds competition, which helps drive elements of aggression and drive to succeed.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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Too many posts to requote.
One particular point, society normalizing the alpha male.
From my understanding a dick head and alpha male are two different things.
Alpha males are not gassed up gym junkies, or pissed guy trying to out do a group of mates by doing something stupid.
Am alpha male is a natrualy confident individual with tact, emotional intelligent and desire for success. You can look at CEOs or elite footballers that are positive role models.
They are not thugs that loose their ****.


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Agreed.
 

Thewlis Dish

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As I said jokes about rape etc aren’t right, but if I make a joke about women’s driving or how much they shop, I refuse to accept that I am normalising a man bashing his wife.
I'm not saying you are. If you can't see the bigger picture link though it's fine, keep telling your sexist jokes as they are obviously just jokes #notallmen
 

Val Keating

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Well said. And as I’ve previously said the problem certainly comes from the male demographic. We are inherently violent imo and I’ve been thinking about this a lot. My dad for instance is the least violent man I know. He changes the channel when something is “too violent” on tv. Yet he loves boxing. To my way of thinking it has to be to do with our inbuilt hunting/fighting of saber tooth tigers plus societies view we have to be “tough”.
Yeah that and looking over human history most civilisations are in a constant state of war where men are expected to kill other men. We’re actually living in a pretty unique time where that isn’t the case.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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Yeah that and looking over human history most civilisations are in a constant state of war where men are expected to kill other men. We’re actually living in a pretty unique time where that isn’t the case.
Which is weird for young men now as society has generally treated men as dispensable when it comes to war and that men should be the protectors.

You see how men dominate suicides and workplace deaths (90+% for workplace deaths), but most people don’t care, men are still viewed as the dispensable protector.

One death is a tragedy, a million, is a statistic.
 
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LB2Snake

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Should never have been allowed into the HoF on the Staker incident alone.

Isn't there a good character clause?
How they made him a HOF member anyway is a complete joke. Bloke was a thug and acted like one.
The biggest shame is we never got to see his own head get pummelled in the boxing match he pulled out of.
 

ferball

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Too many posts to requote.
One particular point, society normalizing the alpha male.
From my understanding a dick head and alpha male are two different things.
Alpha males are not gassed up gym junkies, or pissed guy trying to out do a group of mates by doing something stupid.
Am alpha male is a natrualy confident individual with tact, emotional intelligent and desire for success. You can look at CEOs or elite footballers that are positive role models.
They are not thugs that loose their ****.


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Around one in five corporate bosses are psychopaths - a proportion similar to that among prisoners - according to a new study.
 

sutcliffe's hotel

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Seems like an appropriate time. Has anyone seen Hannah Gadsby’s Nannette on Netflix? If not, I highly recommend it.
Saw it. Loved it. In fact reflecting on the show is what inspired me to post my initial comment in this thread.

Highly recommend Nannette but be prepared as it is so much more than a stand-up comic routine.
 

Firestarter

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Seems like an appropriate time. Has anyone seen Hannah Gadsby’s Nannette on Netflix? If not, I highly recommend it.
Saw it. Loved it. In fact reflecting on the show is what inspired me to post my initial comment in this thread.

Highly recommend Nannette but be prepared as it is so much more than a stand-up comic routine.
I'm sold.




MOD EDIT: PART 3 of commentary and media thread available now
 
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