Comparing GWS outcasts vs GC Suns outcasts and why isn't Scott Clayton under the pump?

[Cochblocked]

Give GWS zone and their concessions to Clayton and you wouldn't be asking this question. The fact that people even consider a 21 year old that has been injured for 2 years such a good player shows how smart recruiting O'Meara was considering every club had the chance to get him. Again, Peter Wright, 7 clubs could have got him but GC was smart enough to get him dispute having 2 key forward already. It's all well and good to say GWS have more stars but how many of them were plucked from the rookie list like Adam Saad or Aaron Hall (he might have been pre-season draft) and best 22 players? Yes there were players like Jacob Gilbee and Josh Hall who were spuds but also remember every club had the chance to get someone like Saad and if he wasn't injured everyone would be saying how good he is. Give fully fit GC vs fully fit GWS and you'll find the teams aren't too far apart.

 

[master bate]

Guys who should somewhat be on the Gold Coast list of outcasts are Matty Warnock, Campbell Brown, Jared Brennan, Nathan Bock, Danny Stanley.

In fairness to the Gold Coast they tried to win games early and build a team that crowds could go and watch and be proud of. That's cost them a lot of draft picks and it means their big mature players are now past their prime compared to Ward, Davis and Scully.

GWS saw just how hard it would be and didn't even bother. Which is fair enough to them. The AFL gave them additional benefits and they doubled down on more kids which was quite a bad oversight from the group that put the concessions in place not to force them to be used on mature players. We will never know what the affect of being non competitive for 3 years did to GWS crowds and good will.

Anyway, the Giants also planned to continually turn over the list as they knew some players would leave and others would be forced out by an over supply.

It's a shame Gold Coast's culture, coaching and professionalism seemed so off because their best footy in 2014 was fantastic and they still had more than enough talent to be a very good team. Since then it's been Ablett, Prestia, O'Meara, Swallow so constantly injured. Dixon and Bennell gone and plenty of other injures hurting their depth.

I'd still take Gold Coast's talls over GWS' and the gap between the two sides can start to shrink if Gold Coast ever get a healthy run of their best midfielders. GWS have the far deeper list and have been able to attract better older players but it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom for GC.

 

[Hellgood]

Injuries have absolutely hammered the Suns and I reckon that's where a lot of the perceived difference comes from. O'Meara and Swallow are two of the best first year footballers I have ever seen and have had limited opportunity to show their wares since. Bennell as a talent could very well have been the best player in the AFL, what kind of third year kid has a 40 disposal, 7 goal game? Such a shame he's wasted his talent through poor off field choices as he was an absolute jet.

Key forwards they've done a very good job with. I rate Charlie Dixon very highly, but in all honesty it's hard to say that he would be a better option up front than Lynch and Wright who are scarily good. Day has been a bit slower in his development, but has bene thrown around a bit and done a job for them to reasonable effect.

Recruiting for defensive players they haven't done quite as good a job with as you would have thought.

Looking longer term they should be seriously excited with how Jack Martin is coming on in leaps and bounds. He will be a hell of a player.

Not saying that I'd take their list ahead of what GWS have built, but I don't see doom and gloom for them.

 

[dlanod]

Give GWS zone and their concessions to Clayton and you wouldn't be asking this question.

Sure we would. He would've had basically the same opportunities - he would've just had a couple more picks to take and a couple fewer zone selections (see my earlier post).

We will never know what the affect of being non competitive for 3 years did to GWS crowds and good will.

Probably a bit off-topic but from someone on the ground, it seems to be going quite well TBH. Sydney only cares if you're winning, and GWS's improvement this year has basically brought them to the notice of a lot more Sydneysiders. Yeah, GWS were basically irrelevant in their first years but they'd still be irrelevant if they followed Gold Coast's win trajectory.

Injuries have absolutely hammered the Suns and I reckon that's where a lot of the perceived difference comes from. O'Meara and Swallow are two of the best first year footballers I have ever seen and have had limited opportunity to show their wares since. Bennell as a talent could very well have been the best player in the AFL, what kind of third year kid has a 40 disposal, 7 goal game? Such a shame he's wasted his talent through poor off field choices as he was an absolute jet..

I agree with all of your post but especially this part. Here's a comparison I made earlier in the year:

Out of 115 games possible (afltables.com hasn't updated for the weekend's games), the highest any of GC's kids has played is 83% of possible games (Trent McKenzie, 96). After him, Matt Shaw, Prestia, Lynch, Day and Bennell are the only others above 70% (81+ games played). [Note: these percentages will have actually dropped, as the top three have all missed time since then.]

By comparison, GWS has Treloar, Greene and Smith all above McKenzie, and Bugg, Kennedy, Coniglio, Shiel and Cameron also all above 70%. That's a huge amount of continuity and non-injuredness which I think is also a great part in why GWS has gelled over the last year or so.

 

[Zephiisdaman]

I was thinking about this just the other day. The only people that clubs want from GC are their genuine stars, their o'mearas, prestias, bennells ect while other clubs hound GWS's fringe players. When clubs want a young player to fill a role they go to GWS. With Cam McCarthy, Adam Tomlinson, Caleb Marchbank, Jack Steele, James Stewart and Will Hoskin-Elliott potentials to leave the club this year it just highlights how well they have developed the list. If one of those players wanted to leave nearly any other team the club would be devastated. In truth they don't even care if they lose these players. If they leave they will receive adequate compensation and continue to recruit/draft to their needs. The club is setting up a 'mini dynasty' if I've ever seen it!

Very good post....I have issues with Clayton with his poor list design at the Dogs. He fell on his feet in one very good draft, after that he was poo.
The facts are that nearly all of the GWS players fringe or star are in demand. It is a good list and has been selected well over the years.
The GCS list has been selected haphazardly and apart from the top 10 players the rest are exceedingly average. No name players that other clubs wouldn't even consider at draft time. Scott Clayton has built a career on mediocrity. It's a toss up in the Gold medal match between him and Francis Jackson as the most inept in history.

 

[The 747]

I don't think you can compare to GWS in terms of selections as the landscape was different - but I do think the Suns recruited too much on skills and athleticism, where GWS focused more on aggression and competitiveness. Suns have too many soft flashy players.

 

[Iva Bigun]

Could we of drafted better yes

Does GWS's position show that Clayton is a failure, no. Certainly not more than any other clubs recruiting staff.

This thread is talking apples and oranges and as such is faulty is it's very premise

 

[HBF]

Melbourne has traded strongly with GWS so that's just plain wrong. I've seen you roll out this line before, doesn't make it true.

Sheedy was addicted to draft picks, he couldn't get enough of them. He openly stated that the team would finish last and they were playing for the future.

So has Carlton. And I dare say we'll go there again at the end of the year.

 

[Supersuns]

Heppell darling Parker gaff
That's just from 2010

To be fair Parker did slide past the first 39 picks

 

[Established1870]

Recruiting hasn't been strong for GC but keep in mind the injuries they've had. It's been an absolute shocker for them over the past few years in that regard.

 

[coniglio_number1]

2011 // 2nd season (4)

National Draft
#24 Henry Schade (15 out of 94) not sure he'll make it
#88 Alex Sexton (42 out of 94) decent player
#91 Jackson Allen (4 out of 44) delisted

When u compare that draft to what gws got.. its no wonder GC fell off the pace. Why was there first pick 24 and there next 88? Wow.

GWS had so many more concessions plus by luck they had far deeper and talent rich drafts to choose in and far better picks in those.

They traded pick 4 for O'meara

 

[reincarnated]

GCS only traded out 4 players? Lol

I remember Scotty wanting Heppell for Caddy...and knocked back All Aus CHB Hooker and Pick 17 offer. Lol No wonder the crazy man can't get a deal done on the trade table....very hard to deal with I suppose.

Worse than Ameet from St Kilda.

 

[King Wavo]

GCS only traded out 4 players? Lol

I remember Scotty wanting Heppell for Caddy...and knocked back All Aus CHB Hooker and Pick 17 offer. Lol No wonder the crazy man can't get a deal done on the trade table....very hard to deal with I suppose.

Worse than Ameet from St Kilda.

That's a joke right? Essendon have the worst reputation for trading with. Overrating their own players and underrating other players.

 

[Experimental]

Clayton has been a disaster. Total spud. The thought of him continuing in his current role scares me. Completely useless and damaging.

 

[Iva Bigun]

GCS only traded out 4 players? Lol

I remember Scotty wanting Heppell for Caddy...and knocked back All Aus CHB Hooker and Pick 17 offer. Lol No wonder the crazy man can't get a deal done on the trade table....very hard to deal with I suppose.

Worse than Ameet from St Kilda.

Your mob lied to Caddy that they could get him back to Victoria and told him to exaggerate his fathers illness to twist our arm, typical low act from your mob

You offered things we didn't want as far as players and picks trying to draw out the process after we made it clear we wanted a top 10 pick or nothing.

You then went to arbitration who told you to * off and up your offer. The next year when Caddy was uncontracted he told you to * off and went to Geelong

Who's difficult to deal with, look in the mirror

 

[SterlingArcher]

2011 // 2nd season (4)

National Draft
#24 Henry Schade (15 out of 94) not sure he'll make it
#88 Alex Sexton (42 out of 94) decent player
#91 Jackson Allen (4 out of 44) delisted

When u compare that draft to what gws got.. its no wonder GC fell off the pace. Why was there first pick 24 and there next 88? Wow.

GWS had so many more concessions plus by luck they had far deeper and talent rich drafts to choose in and far better picks in those.

Gold coast got 1, 2, 3 and then 5, 7, 9 etc the year before.

GWS got those as well but also the mini draft which I personally think was overboard - the idea was that GWS would get decent senior players, but no one was going to compromise their playing list culture by giving up top 8 on their list seniors for a 17 year old so offered spuds...GWS well within their rights said no so took the best available pick...pick 4, from the Suns.

Lack of oversight by the AFL to allow it - intention was good (after GC were crying out for experience), but no clubs wanted to play ball and with good reason imo, that's what the AFL failed to predict.

Gold Coast did a lot of complicated trading that year with compensation picks, zone picks (Yagmoor, Zorko, Zorko out for Warnock and 34 as far as I can determine) and working their way up the draft. Gave up 27, 31and 68 for 24 woth Crows. 32 and 34 for 26 to Geelong. 26 and a second round compo pick for Richmonds first round compo.
As far as I can tell, this compo pick was used in 2013 on Jack Leslie at pick 20. Don't know much about him ao I'll reserve judgement but there's some decent names following him, Zac Merrett included.

The next year GWS only had pick 1, but GC & Melbourne gave up 2 and 3 for their mini draft selections. GWS getting those 3 picks. GC could have had picks 2, 4, 2 first round compo picks and pick 67 overall, but gave it up for Martin, O'Meara, a first round compo pick and pick 31. GC ended up winning there on talent imo, as O'Mearas knee was unpredictable.

Although, the minidrafts meant GWS didn't snaffle up O'Meara, Crouch, Hogan and Martin in the following drafts, probably in place of O'Rourke, Plowman in 2012 - taking Whitfield, O'Meara & Crouch if I have my drafts correct, and I guess they would have had to choose the nest year, Boyd v Hogan v Kelly v Martin - GWS had pick 1 from finishing last and pick 2 from trading put Dom Tyson.
So I guess the mini drafts actually prevented GWS from accessing even more top tier talent such as Hogan and O'Meara (Kelly & Boyd are up there but Plowman is only solid and O'Rourke well not sure). Not the AFLs intention I'd think but not necessarily a bad thing, considering how well run GWS seems to be at the moment with their ability to develop players, salvage trades and stand up to made clubs.

 

[SterlingArcher]

I think GC would have been a different story had they nailed their uncontracted free agent picks. McDonald, Cornes, Power, Brogan obviously wielded a lot of influence at GWS and have succeeded since in various roles. GC had a big reliance on Ablett. Not sure the likes of Weller, McKenzie, Caddy, Dixon, Bennell, Russell were lead as well as they could have been early on, with only 2 still at the club. So the question is - drafting, development or duo? Reckon Rocket Rodney will sprt few more careers out before he's gone from GC

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

It's alright, GC will make up for their lesser concessions with the top 3 picks they'll accumulate over the next 5 years while GWS are playing finals.