Opinion Comparison thread (#2)

[Cataholic]

good luck winning a flag in two years time when the franchise clubs are well and truly peaking.
I reckon they will beating teams by an average margin of 50 points by then, particularly GWS.

So do we, and everyone else, just concede?

You're already beaten if you take to the field with that mindset.

Who knows what will happen? The landscape can change very quickly.

And remember how the Suns were going to be a formidable force, and flags for them were just a given?

 

[Cezz The Catter]

I think we can all agree this side wouldnt stand a snow flakes chance in hell of beating our 09 side. I wouldnt even think they'd get within 50points.

However times changed, the comps more equal and talent is more distributed across all the teams. I have high hopes for this incredibly frustrating unit that makes me question why I love footy. Dont write us off yet.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

So do we, and everyone else, just concede?

You're already beaten if you take to the field with that mindset.

Who knows what will happen? The landscape can change very quickly.

And remember how the Suns were going to be a formidable force, and flags for them were just a given?

Remember when the Suns made top 4 and were already beating up on accomplished sides like the reigning premier?

 

[Cataholic]

Sigh. See you in 2021 them. This place will be torture until then, too many Debbie Downers

It seems like there's going to be some palpable disappointment in these parts if we enjoy any degree of success in the finals, and / or coming years.

 

[Cataholic]

Remember when the Suns made top 4 and were already beating up on accomplished sides like the reigning premier?

How many flags have they won again??

 

[Cataholic]

I think qe can all agree this side wouldnt stand a snow flakes chance in hell of beating our 09 side. I wouldnt even think they'd get within 50points.

However times changed, the comps more equal and talent is more distributed across all the teams. I have high hopes for this incredibly frustrating unit that makes me question why I love footy. Dont write us off yet.

The AFL wants an equal competition, and manipulate drafting, rosters etc to make it so. We're as much a chance as anyone else.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

How many flags have they won again??

None. What's your point? Have you seen the depth of talent they have at their disposal? They're top 4 with a bunch of gun players who aren't even in their prime yet, and then they still have high-quality, top-end talent developing in their reserves side. Once they mature a bit more, gain some finals experience, they'll be near unstoppable. They're not like the Suns. They haven't copped a series of injuries. They haven't relied on one player to carry the side. They haven't neglected to develop any one area of the ground. It's hard to think up a reason why they won't be successful. They're already good and have the widest scope for improvement in the league.

 

[BlightysCats]

good luck winning a flag in two years time when the franchise clubs are well and truly peaking.
I reckon they will beating teams by an average margin of 50 points by then, particularly GWS.

I never said it was 2016 or bust. But given the results this year, the way other teams are performing, and how the landscape of the competition is likely to look in the next few years, 2016 presented a good chance to snag one.

How do you think the side will go in the next couple of years when it needs to turn over almost the entirety of the backline? How do you replace the experience and composure of Enright? Where does the Lonergan replacement come from?

I really genuinely fear Scott will leave us an unsuccessful husk of a team Lyon style at the end of 2017/18.

 

[Cataholic]

None. What's your point? Have you seen the depth of talent they have at their disposal? They're top 4 with a bunch of gun players who aren't even in their prime yet, and then they still have high-quality, top-end talent developing in their reserves side. Once they mature a bit more, gain some finals experience, they'll be near unstoppable. They're not like the Suns. They haven't copped a series of injuries. They haven't relied on one player to carry the side. They haven't neglected to develop any one area of the ground. It's hard to think up a reason why they won't be successful. They're already good and have the widest scope for improvement in the league.

Point is the Suns were given every possible pick, advantage and opportunity but blew it.

So those things don't guarantee success. Yes, it would seem the Giants are going to be a force, but it's also possible that they don't fulfill their potential.

If it were a 'given' the AFL might as well give them the flags now, put the comp into hibernation, and resurrect it at a later date.

But they won't, because other sides will always believe no-one is unbeatable.

 

[Bobby_]

So do we, and everyone else, just concede?

You're already beaten if you take to the field with that mindset.

Who knows what will happen? The landscape can change very quickly.

And remember how the Suns were going to be a formidable force, and flags for them were just a given?

I don't care for the Rocky Balboa attitude you preach. It's great to be a dreamer but I am looking at it from a realistic point of view and unfortunately, this is what the AFL have brought upon all footy lovers. They have created a monster and it's getting out of hand as we speak.
Not only will they finish top four and play home finals from which they potentially make a grand final, their NEAFL sides are choc full of that much depth, they could still trade away a few and keep on replenishing their list by bringing in such players as we have with Henderson, Smith and Selwood.

Tomlinson, Downie, Stewart, Smith, Kennedy, these guys can't even get a game but would be walk up starters at most other clubs.
They also have a pretty decent injury list (like all clubs do) but some handy talent in Mohr, Marchbank, Hoskin-Elliott, Ahern, lol it's just ridiculous.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Remember when the Suns made top 4 and were already beating up on accomplished sides like the reigning premier?

Nope.
I do however remember the Suns getting smashed by 100 points this year.
Do you?

 

[Cataholic]

I don't care for the Rocky Balboa attitude you preach. It's great to be a dreamer but I am looking at it from a realistic point of view and unfortunately, this is what the AFL have brought upon all footy lovers. They have created a monster and it's getting out of hand as we speak.
Not only will they finish top four and play home finals from which they potentially make a grand final, their NEAFL sides are choc full of that much depth, they could still trade away a few and keep on replenishing their list by bringing in such players as we have with Henderson, Smith and Selwood.

Tomlinson, Downie, Stewart, Smith, Kennedy, these guys can't even get a game but would be walk up starters at most other clubs.
They also have a pretty decent injury list (like all clubs do) but some handy talent in Mohr, Marchbank, Hoskin-Elliott, Ahern, lol it's just ridiculous.

Wasn't being 'Rocky Balboa' on you Bobby.

I was attempting a genuine conversation with you, but your prickly response to most posters makes that hard.

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you - just pointing that, despite the odds being heavily weighted in the favour of the plastic teams, stranger things have happened.

That's why teams compete against the odds, and we as fans follow with curiosity. Because we believe that anything can happen.

Oh, and I'm not a dreamer Bobby. I've been aound a little longer than you, and am as awake as anyone. Long years of no success isn't forgotten, trust me.

 

[vinum coupe]

Forget comparing this team to 2009.
I hate to say it but this current outfit is more reminiscent of the sides that we're going around in the early nineties. Capable of playing brilliant football, but also of putting in some shockers including three below par performances in Grand Finals. We had some terrific players who were guilty of going AWOL when the heat was on.
I hope I am proven wrong, but watching this current team when they are 'off' certainly reminds me of those days. Great expectations..bitter disappointments.

I'll see your post and raise you.

The early 90's lacked grit.
Late 90's we turned that grit on and off (97)

We are actually doing something very similar.

 

[kickazz]

To be honest i don't think we can a read on them until the first quarter of the first final this year.

See if they have what it takes then.

 

[Bobby_]

Wasn't being 'Rocky Balboa' on you Bobby.

I was attempting a genuine conversation with you, but your prickly response to most posters makes that hard.

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you - just pointing that, despite the odds being heavily weighted in the favour of the plastic teams, stranger things have happened.

That's why teams compete against the odds, and we as fans follow with curiosity. Because we believe that anything can happen.

Oh, and I'm not a dreamer Bobby. I've been aound a little longer than you, and am as awake as anyone. Long years of no success isn't forgotten, trust me.

Where did I have a prickly attitude?
Was it the Rocky Balboa reference?
How else can I get across my views without mentioning that?

Do you see what I am trying to say though. I can't see any team competing with so much talent and depth. What we are seeing from GWS is only the start of what will be a very long time at the top.
How do teams like us, who are about to lose a whole batch of phenomenal players in Bartel, Selwood, Taylor, Enright, Hawkins, how do we stay competitive against teams like GWS who have Patton, Cameron, Lobb all 21, 22, 23 yrs of age and already have a midfield as good as ours in Shiel, Coniglio, Kelly, Scully, Greene?
Callan Ward seems like he's been around for a decade but he only turned 26 a few months ago so even the guys who we think had limited time left are not going anywhere.

 

[Cataholic]

Where did I have a prickly attitude?
Was it the Rocky Balboa reference?
How else can I get across my views without mentioning that?

Do you see what I am trying to say though. I can't see any team competing with so much talent and depth. What we are seeing from GWS is only the start of what will be a very long time at the top.
How do teams like us, who are about to lose a whole batch of phenomenal players in Bartel, Selwood, Taylor, Enright, Hawkins, how do we stay competitive against teams like GWS who have Patton, Cameron, Lobb all 21, 22, 23 yrs of age and already have a midfield as good as ours in Shiel, Coniglio, Kelly, Scully, Greene?
Callan Ward seems like he's been around for a decade but he only turned 26 a few months ago so even the guys who we think had limited time left are not going anywhere.

You get defensive Bobby - no need to reference RB at all.

I see what you're saying, and have said as much. But I'm suggesting to you that the next few years could take any which path, even if one seems pre-ordained.

The expansion teams have been given an unhealthy advantage, I agree, but it's another thng for them to fulfill it. Exhibit 1: GCS

And if they do taste success, then the tap will be turned off and reality will slowly set in.

It will be interesting.

 

[you pick one]

I think the Hawks have probably out maneuvered every one once again,they took advantage of a weakened competition and a with some inspired trading to full fill needs they made hay while the sun shone(3 flags).They will now go into their rebuilding period over the next few years with no compromised draft to speak of, and there for the potential to maximize draft picks and be sitting pretty in 5 years time when the GWS wheels start to fall off.It's a very good long game strategy.

 

[Pollywaffle]

I'll see your post and raise you.

The early 90's lacked grit.
Late 90's we turned that grit on and off (97)

We are actually doing something very similar.

At last someone who gets what I was saying.
I only posted this in response to the erroneous comparisons being made to the 09 outfit. Probably didn't need a new thread, but thought it was important to mention.... those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
As I said of course I hope that I am wrong but there is just that whiff of softness/complacency emanating from "down at kardinia park".

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Spot on.....and the same applies to Geelong...poor losses against any team in June has little bearing on September. I still think 5-8 and a finals win would be about pre-season expectations for this group at this stage of their development.

I might be wrong, but I don't see a 2016 Premiership for Geelong and frankly never have.

I agree with your pre season expectations

However right at the present time - there would be supporters of 6 7 or even 8 clubs - who would be saying the same thing - this isnt a strong year eg - theres no Carlton of 95 or West Coast of 94 that you have to beat . Theres alot of so so clubs and this year you can basically pinch a flag - and wouldnt it be a waste if Geelong who were top of the ladder - didnt make the top 4 and give themselves a chance of winning a very winnable flag

 

[Seeds]

Where does the expectation come from that we should be invincible and undefeated? It is a very even competition, particularly a very even top 8, and not much gap from the top 8 to the next 4-5. Our list is not far and away better than everyone else. We don't have a revolutionary gameplan that hasn't been worked out. We don't have a team of stars although we have maybe a few.

All of these things add up to being competitive and hopefully successful at the pointy end (if things go the right way), but there's no real reason to expect there won't be ups and downs along the way.

There are 7 other teams in a similar boat (all envious of our record against top sides) and ten others that would kill to be in our position. Things ain't so bad.

Your assumption is incorrect. There is a massive gap between the top eight and the 4-5 just outside it as evidence by the results of games between the top eight and those 4-5 teams. The top eight are winning all those games except geelong. We are a massive outlier. It's what we want explanation on.

 

[Whit3y]

Forget comparing this team to 2009.
I hate to say it but this current outfit is more reminiscent of the sides that we're going around in the early nineties. Capable of playing brilliant football, but also of putting in some shockers including three below par performances in Grand Finals. We had some terrific players who were guilty of going AWOL when the heat was on.
I hope I am proven wrong, but watching this current team when they are 'off' certainly reminds me of those days. Great expectations..bitter disappointments.

i'd say by seasons end we will be saying this season seemed a mirror to 2013, and you know how that went

started the season with a bang, become premiership favorites, then lost to teams that we expected to beat. then limped into finals and then out without much fight

rings any bells?
lets hope the last bit doesnt happen this year

 

[kickazz]

However right at the present time - there would be supporters of 6 7 or even 8 clubs - who would be saying the same thing - this isnt a strong year

This.

I think worrying that we've already lost as many games as in our flag years is a bit irrelevant in the case of this year; as is correctly assessing our best 22 as being considerable inferior.

I also think we are entering a phase of footy where you can get away with a slightly dodgy bottom six and still do well in finals and even win the flag. Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, GWS, Crows and North all have players who just "don't look like premiership players"

It feels like Essendon in 93 or Crows 97 98. It is up for grabs. And for all the negatives in the St Kilda game, i think it was a good hit out. Saints played well, cats responded (eventually) and importantly kept playing positive footy at the end and didn't go into their shells. (Just take those set shots, boys)

Just need to show more than they have in finals of recent years. Time will tell.

 

[catempire]

Your assumption is incorrect. There is a massive gap between the top eight and the 4-5 just outside it as evidence by the results of games between the top eight and those 4-5 teams. The top eight are winning all those games except geelong. We are a massive outlier. It's what we want explanation on.

The top 8 is separated by just three wins. That hasn't happened in at least the past decade. It is a matter of fact that it is even.

West Coast - 8th - is only two games ahead of 13th. Those 5 teams immediately outside the 8 may not be getting the wins against the top 8 sides but they are going close and are competitive on a weekly basis. Port has lost twice by under 10 points. Melbourne by 5 and 18. Richmond beat Sydney. St Kilda twice by under 7 points.

You want an explanation? If you're off your game you get done. No one is immune from this. Not a single team has won every game. All have lost games they went in as favourites. We just happen to have a very odd record. Thankfully, it's odd in the best way possible.

 

[FredLeDeux]

It's season 2016 and it has its own unique set of circumstances.

What happened in past seasons is irrelevant in assessing what will happen this season.

Comparisons with past seasons and eras are like betting on omens, and/or on the signs from the entrails of the sacrificial goats.

 

[you pick one]

i'd say by seasons end we will be saying this season seemed a mirror to 2013, and you know how that went

started the season with a bang, become premiership favorites, then lost to teams that we expected to beat. then limped into finals and then out without much fight

rings any bells?
lets hope the last bit doesnt happen this year

Like you I'm hoping you are wrong,I'm hoping we haven't yet seen our best team or best footy and with a health list a softish fixture and a pretty even top 8,I'm still confident of a strong showing in September.
One caveat,Scotts assessment and reaction to the Saints lose is crucial it can't simply be swept under the carpet, heads must roll and I'm not talking a slap on the wrist one week in the 2's, they need to go back until they show they real want to contribute,I'd start with Motlop,Kersten and maybe Mackie and bring in Lang Menegola and Clark.
Others will have different outs,Murdoch no doubt will most likely feature with a few, but I'm positive most here would welcome a strong response from the Coach.