Opinion Competitive balance - The AFL's most divisive topic

[Elixuh]

Watched 3saint Kilda eligible father sons play on Friday night at Kinetic Stadium. Saints obviously dont care too much, they have a history of not taking a punt on these kids (or NGA's for that matter). Only the sure things they seem to bother with

It’s why their comments about academies are bemusing.

Players like Harris andrews or Bruce Reville or Keiden Coleman - all project players or over agers who were passed over in drafts but we persisted with and developed.

 

[Mat Mann]

Watched 3saint Kilda eligible father sons play on Friday night at Kinetic Stadium. Saints obviously dont care too much, they have a history of not taking a punt on these kids (or NGA's for that matter). Only the sure things they seem to bother with

haha so what AFL team were they playing for again??
who drafted them?? we should just draft any kid f/s eligable regardless of talent levels??

shit house comment

more Suns kids went undrafted last year than drafted, so the same doesn't apply to them???
slective argument...............

 

[Yoda_]

haha so what AFL team were they playing for again??
who drafted them?? we should just draft any kid f/s eligable regardless of talent levels??

shit house comment

more Suns kids went undrafted last year than drafted, so the same doesn't apply to them???
slective argument...............

father sons I believe can still be eligible as father/sons even if not taken. I believe Jacob Brennan, former WCE f/s was taken as a 22 year old. Jackson Vosscertainly, imho, deserves to be on an AFL list. Tyson Milne maybe a step back but good enough as well

academies is different (and we probably side on the same fence on that) because they can literally cherry pick as many as they want to play and develop in there own club based academy from a very young age.

 

[GC2015]

It’s not a theory. The league did everything in its power to create a dominant team who could attract star coaches as players. 7 years later, it’s a reality.

Well, if that's true, they did a pretty bad job if it took 16 years to achieve it. Remember how bad the Dees were around 2008-09 when they got given help in the form of mulitple early priority picks from the AFL? They were playing finals in 2006 and even after all their catastrophic mistakes they were back to being highly competitive in 2017 before playing finals again in 2018. Even that terrible run of 11 years for the Dees doesn't compare to the Suns' 15 years. It's very rare for a team to go 15 years without playing finals and basically unheard of in modern footy with the exception of the Suns. It was a historically bad run from the Suns.

I don’t understand. Should priority picks and rescue packages be handed out before a team hits rock bottom?

If your premise of 'doing everything in their power to create a dominant team' was true, then yes. Why would you purposely wait a decade to help the team that you're 'doing everything in your power' to turn them into a dominant team? Surely you step in wayyyy before that to stop the bleeding if your goal was what you claim it was.

COME OOOOON! North have their father son zoned by a Northern academy, and you’re calling it an example of an advantage North Melbourne holds over Northern teams?

So getting F/S access to Archer, Harvey, Scott and Harris (this year) means nothing? What about North's F/S pick 8 Luke McDonald who has played over 200 games for them and was one of their better players in their win over Essendon today? What if their first round F/S prospect Aiden McCartney picks North this year? Just because the Roos missed out on Blakey doesn't mean all of North's F/S picks are completely irrelevant. North have done alright when it comes to the F/S rule over the last 15 years, even without Blakey. Once again I'll remind you that F/S access is not an avenue the Suns can use to recruit players for at least another decade so there is certainly an inequality there that can't be rectified for the time being.

Clubs are pretty similar actually. GC have been given an armchair ride compared to every other team who’ve been in the doldrums, but that’s ok with me. They need success to exist. All I’m asking you to do is admit it.

Clubs are not similar. I just pointed out the F/S picks North have had access to over the last 15 years and that the Suns don't have that. How is that similar?

Also, armchair ride of 15 years without finals, 9 of which saw them finish in the bottom 4. Very convincing argument.

 

[Mat Mann]

father sons I believe can still be eligible as father/sons even if not taken. I believe Jacob Brennan, former WCE f/s was taken as a 22 year old. Jackson Vosscertainly, imho, deserves to be on an AFL list. Tyson Milne maybe a step back but good enough as well

academies is different (and we probably side on the same fence on that) because they can literally cherry pick as many as they want to play and develop in there own club based academy from a very young age

no options beyond draft year

Voss was rated by many on our board to be picked up last year, but he was eligible in 2019 as a F/S and it's taken him, what 4 years? to elevate his game at VFL, It's rare an AFL clubs hold players that long without being high draft pick or tall

it's not like we aren't trying, we have 2 rookies as captains and both AA's Marshall, another
2 mid-season selections in Sharman and Hall

all played today

 

[Mat Mann]

Well, if that's true, they did a pretty bad job if it took 16 years to achieve it. Remember how bad the Dees were around 2008-09 when they got given help in the form of mulitple early priority picks from the AFL? They were playing finals in 2006 and even after all their catastrophic mistakes they were back to being highly competitive in 2017 before playing finals again in 2018. Even that terrible run of 11 years for the Dees doesn't compare to the Suns' 15 years. It's very rare for a team to go 15 years without playing finals and basically unheard of in modern footy with the exception of the Suns. It was a historically bad run from the Suns.


If your premise of 'doing everything in their power to create a dominant team' was true, then yes. Why would you purposely wait a decade to help the team that you're 'doing everything in your power' to turn them into a dominant team? Surely you step in wayyyy before that to stop the bleeding if your goal was what you claim it was.


So getting F/S access to Archer, Harvey, Scott and Harris (this year) means nothing? What about North's F/S pick 8 Luke McDonald who has played over 200 games for them and was one of their better players in their win over Essendon today? What if their first round F/S prospect Aiden McCartney picks North this year? Just because the Roos missed out on Blakey doesn't mean all of North's F/S picks are completely irrelevant. North have done alright when it comes to the F/S rule over the last 15 years, even without Blakey. Once again I'll remind you that F/S access is not an avenue the Suns can use to recruit players for at least another decade so there is certainly an inequality there that can't be rectified for the time being.


Clubs are not similar. I just pointed out the F/S picks North have had access to over the last 15 years and that the Suns don't have that. How is that similar?

Also, armchair ride of 15 years without finals, 9 of which saw them finish in the bottom 4. Very convincing argument.

Melbourne has NEVER received priority assistance from the AFL
They asked in 2013, and were DENIED

 

[ReturningHawk]

No chance it's a fair playing field.

The Suns beat Freo in a final.

Freo come away from the off season with one first round pick while the Suns banked FOUR players before Freo's selection (including 2 in the top 5) and still had assets to trade for Christian Petracca.

The Suns did beat Freo in a final, which is to Freo’s everlasting shame. They were the better, more experienced team playing at home. I say well done Suns, they have been handed a lot of things on a platter, but that was one they earned.

Academy bidding system can get in the bin though, same with F/S. Simply make it impossible to match in the first round. If Carlton want Walker, then trade for pick 1 or 2 like the Giants did for Cadman.

 

[ReturningHawk]

Well, if that's true, they did a pretty bad job if it took 16 years to achieve it. Remember how bad the Dees were around 2008-09 when they got given help in the form of mulitple early priority picks from the AFL? They were playing finals in 2006 and even after all their catastrophic mistakes they were back to being highly competitive in 2017 before playing finals again in 2018. Even that terrible run of 11 years for the Dees doesn't compare to the Suns' 15 years. It's very rare for a team to go 15 years without playing finals and basically unheard of in modern footy with the exception of the Suns. It was a historically bad run from the Suns.


If your premise of 'doing everything in their power to create a dominant team' was true, then yes. Why would you purposely wait a decade to help the team that you're 'doing everything in your power' to turn them into a dominant team? Surely you step in wayyyy before that to stop the bleeding if your goal was what you claim it was.


So getting F/S access to Archer, Harvey, Scott and Harris (this year) means nothing? What about North's F/S pick 8 Luke McDonald who has played over 200 games for them and was one of their better players in their win over Essendon today? What if their first round F/S prospect Aiden McCartney picks North this year? Just because the Roos missed out on Blakey doesn't mean all of North's F/S picks are completely irrelevant. North have done alright when it comes to the F/S rule over the last 15 years, even without Blakey. Once again I'll remind you that F/S access is not an avenue the Suns can use to recruit players for at least another decade so there is certainly an inequality there that can't be rectified for the time being.


Clubs are not similar. I just pointed out the F/S picks North have had access to over the last 15 years and that the Suns don't have that. How is that similar?

Also, armchair ride of 15 years without finals, 9 of which saw them finish in the bottom 4. Very convincing argument.

I can’t even get specific here, everything you just said is so blatantly wrong that there’s nowhere to begin. I suppose the bit where you suggested that North’s recent father son selections are on par with GC’s recent academy picks was a standout.

 

[GC2015]

Melbourne has NEVER received priority assistance from the AFL
They asked in 2013, and were DENIED

... so what was pick 1 Tom Scully in 2009? My evidence suggests he was a start of first round priority pick given to the Dees...

I can’t even get specific here, everything you just said is so blatantly wrong that there’s nowhere to begin. I suppose the bit where you suggested that North’s recent father son selections are on par with GC’s recent academy picks was a standout.

Where did I suggest they were on par with each other? I didn't suggest that at all. I was pointing out that the two clubs are not in the same boat recruitment wise because North have F/S access that has delivered them multiple AFL players (some of which are highly regarded) over the last 15 years and the Suns don't have F/S access at all for at least another decade.

 

[ReturningHawk]

I was pointing out that the two clubs are not in the same boat recruitment wise because North have F/S access that has delivered them multiple AFL players (some of which are highly regarded) over the last 15 years and the Suns don't have F/S access at all for at least another decade.

What you pointed out was that North Melbourne’s access to to players like Nick Blakey is an advantage for them over Northern clubs, which is why Northern clubs need academies and more assistance. We can’t continue mate I’m sorry you are on another level.

 

[GC2015]

What you pointed out was that North Melbourne’s access to to players like Nick Blakey is an advantage for them over Northern clubs, which is why Northern clubs need academies and more assistance. We can’t continue mate I’m sorry you are on another level.

No, that's what you chose to fixate on and added your own interpretation, even though that wasn't stated. Check out the screenshot below - you chose to bold that particular part about Blakey and draw your own conclusions when the entirety of the paragraph is referring to all of North's F/S access giving the Roos a historical advantage over a club like the Suns (who won't have F/S access for at least another decade) and it has netted the Roos other AFL players like Archer and Scott. Then you continued to fixate on the Blakey example and your own interpretation so I provided even more context in the next post with other North F/S picks in the last 15 years like pick 8 McDonald, Harvey, Harris and possibly first rounder McCartney. You're just ignoring the whole truth and trying to dictate a point that I wasn't making, but you're doing a very bad job of it because there's evidence that shows what you're suggesting isn't true. If you're going to quote someone, at least make sure it's accurate and don't try to enforce your own interpretation otherwise you'll be fact checked.

For future reference, what you've done over the last few posts is create a strawman argument. It's a very poor way of arguing and easily detectable for those who know what it is. So you may want to avoid that in the future if you don't want to be fact checked.

 

[ReturningHawk]

No, that's what you chose to fixate on and added your own interpretation, even though that wasn't stated. Check out the screenshot below - you chose to bold that particular part about Blakey and draw your own conclusions when the entirety of the paragraph is referring to all of North's F/S access giving the Roos a historical advantage over a club like the Suns (who won't have F/S access for at least another decade) and it has netted the Roos other AFL players like Archer and Scott. Then you continued to fixate on the Blakey example and your own interpretation so I provided even more context in the next post with other North F/S picks in the last 15 years like pick 8 McDonald, Harvey, Harris and possibly first rounder McCartney. You're just ignoring the whole truth and trying to dictate a point that I wasn't making, but you're doing a very bad job of it because there's evidence that shows what you're suggesting isn't true. If you're going to quote someone, at least make sure it's accurate and don't try to enforce your own interpretation otherwise you'll be fact checked.

For future reference, what you've done over the last few posts is create a strawman argument. It's a very poor way of arguing and easily detectable for those who know what it is. So you may want to avoid that in the future if you don't want to be fact checked.

Use your brain. Blakey does not represent any kind of advantage to North Melbourne.

 

[Elixuh]

no options beyond draft year

Voss was rated by many on our board to be picked up last year, but he was eligible in 2019 as a F/S and it's taken him, what 4 years? to elevate his game at VFL, It's rare an AFL clubs hold players that long without being high draft pick or tall

it's not like we aren't trying, we have 2 rookies as captains and both AA's Marshall, another
2 mid-season selections in Sharman and Hall

all played today

Holding a player for 4 years, especially a tall is not rare at all

 

[L_W_P]

The Suns did beat Freo in a final, which is to Freo’s everlasting shame. They were the better, more experienced team playing at home. I say well done Suns, they have been handed a lot of things on a platter, but that was one they earned.

Academy bidding system can get in the bin though, same with F/S. Simply make it impossible to match in the first round. If Carlton want Walker, then trade for pick 1 or 2 like the Giants did for Cadman.

My point was that the Suns are already in a position to compete/beat the Dockers.

Freo get their one pick.
The Suns get four + Petracca.

So the talent gap just got wider.

If the Suns play Freo again in the finals over the next few years, you'd be expecting a Suns win more often than not.

 

[Yoda_]

no options beyond draft year

Voss was rated by many on our board to be picked up last year, but he was eligible in 2019 as a F/S and it's taken him, what 4 years? to elevate his game at VFL, It's rare an AFL clubs hold players that long without being high draft pick or tall

it's not like we aren't trying, we have 2 rookies as captains and both AA's Marshall, another
2 mid-season selections in Sharman and Hall

all played today

I think you will find this incorrect, would need to revisit but as mentioned in my example, West Coast Eagles picked up Jacob Brennan as a 22 year old father/son

 

[WhyAmIHere]

Ah, the old ‘nature vs nurture’ debate.

Most of draft ‘busts’ are due to terrible development forcing high potential players to take on responsibilities they are not physically or mentally ready for. Strong clubs will bring the players on more slowly with the physicality and expectation responsibility lying with the senior players.

Young players at Brisbane are ‘protected’ by flogs like Zorko - who for all his faults will absolutely step up when people go after the young Brisbane stars.

At West Coast Harley Reid was left to fend for himself until Yeo, Waterman and the like back last season. Once back he has shone even brighter than when he was by himself.

Sicily constantly goes in to look after talented jerks at his club, being a senior talented jerk himself.

Interesting no St Kilda players were willing to stand up for NAS in generally play and only stepped in when he was forced to protect himself against a barrage of Brisbane physicality.

Would not have happened at Geelong, Collingwood, Brisbane, etc.

This isn’t a case of St Kilda polishing draft turds, more a case of St Kilda not being able to cut and polish the diamonds they do draft.

Brisbane can.

 

[Mat Mann]

I think you will find this incorrect, would need to revisit but as mentioned in my example, West Coast Eagles picked up Jacob Brennan as a 22 year old father/son

not sure if the rules in 2010 are the same now, I guess it depends if he nominated for the draft before that year, he was 20 born 1990 drafted 2010, delisted 2014 after 2 games

All I know is we cannot get Voss under the f/s rule, he is no longer eligible

 

[GC2015]

Use your brain. Blakey does not represent any kind of advantage to North Melbourne.

More strawman from you. You're focusing on the outcome and pretending that I was arguing that point, when my point was actually the opportunity that comes with being the club or one of the clubs with priority access. Blakey would've met with North before he picked Sydney and obviously the pitch from the Roos wasn't as appealing as the one that the Swans presented. I'm sure Blakey would've met with Brisbane as well because he also happened to be F/S eligible for the Lions. So that's an opportunity afforded to both Brisbane and North that isn't afforded to the Suns or Giants because enough time hasn't passed.

Understand?

 

[ReturningHawk]

More strawman from you. You're focusing on the outcome and pretending that I was arguing that point, when my point was actually the opportunity that comes with being the club or one of the clubs with priority access. Blakey would've met with North before he picked Sydney and obviously the pitch from the Roos wasn't as appealing as the one that the Swans presented. I'm sure Blakey would've met with Brisbane as well because he also happened to be F/S eligible for the Lions. So that's an opportunity afforded to both Brisbane and North that isn't afforded to the Suns or Giants because enough time hasn't passed.

Understand?

Strawman, or your unwillingness to re-read your own posts. You said that access to players like Archer, Scott and Blakey were an advantage for North Melbourne over Gold Coast. Now you have to live with the consequences.

 

[GC2015]

Strawman, or your unwillingness to re-read your own posts. You said that access to players like Archer, Scott and Blakey were an advantage for North Melbourne over Gold Coast. Now you have to live with the consequences.

"North have inherent advantages that the Suns don't have like historical factors that open doors to access F/S players like Blakey, Archer and Scott in the last 10 years. I know they didn't get Blakey, but they still were afforded the opportunity to convince him to join the club."

That's the exact quote. North have been in the VFL/AFL for more than 100 years and that means there are historical elements to the priority access they are afforded that don't exist for the Suns or Giants e.g. the father-son rule. The door was open for North to convince Blakey to join them instead of the other two clubs that also had priority access to him. Sure it didn't work out for them with Blakey, but it did work out for them with Scott. Then there's all the other F/S picks they had sole priority access to like pick 8 McDonald, Archer, Harris and probable 2026 first rounder McCartney.

To tie it back to the original point - this means teams like North aren't in the same boat as a team like the Suns when it comes to recruitment. This really isn't that complicated, mate.

 

[ReturningHawk]

"North have inherent advantages that the Suns don't have like historical factors that open doors to access F/S players like Blakey, Archer and Scott in the last 10 years. I know they didn't get Blakey, but they still were afforded the opportunity to convince him to join the club."

That's the exact quote. North have been in the VFL/AFL for more than 100 years and that means there are historical elements to the priority access they are afforded that don't exist for the Suns or Giants e.g. the father-son rule. The door was open for North to convince Blakey to join them instead of the other two clubs that also had priority access to him. Sure it didn't work out for them with Blakey, but it did work out for them with Scott. Then there's all the other F/S picks they had sole priority access to like pick 8 McDonald, Archer, Harris and probable 2026 first rounder McCartney.

To tie it back to the original point - this means teams like North aren't in the same boat as a team like the Suns when it comes to recruitment. This really isn't that complicated, mate.

If you can’t see the bare-arsed irony of using Blakey as an example of North Melbourne’s recruitment advantages over Northern teams… well good luck to you.

 

[GC2015]

If you can’t see the bare-arsed irony of using Blakey as an example of North Melbourne’s recruitment advantages over Northern teams… well good luck to you.

And if you choose to ignore every other F/S player North have had over the last 15 years and fixate on one they didn't convince to join them to justify your strawman argument, then good luck to you.

Even if we completely ignore Blakey, there's still a very obvious difference in priority access between the F/S players North have had access to over the last 15 years (McDonald, Scott, Archer, Harris, McCartney) vs the Suns' and Giants' zero F/S players for the last 15 years and probably the next 10 years as well. Do you at least understand that or are you going to fixate on Blakey again and continue to build your strawman argument?

 

[ReturningHawk]

And if you choose to ignore every other F/S player North have had over the last 15 years and fixate on one they didn't convince to join them to justify your strawman argument, then good luck to you.

Even if we completely ignore Blakey, there's still a very obvious difference in priority access between the F/S players North have had access to over the last 15 years (McDonald, Scott, Archer, Harris, McCartney) vs the Suns' and Giants' zero F/S players for the last 15 years and probably the next 10 years as well. Do you at least understand that or are you going to fixate on Blakey again and continue to build your strawman argument?

Say strawman again, maybe it’ll change the words that you posted.

 

[GC2015]

Say strawman again, maybe it’ll change the words that you posted.

You can't do it, can you? You can't respond to the actual point that was being made. You're too committed to your strawman argument that you would look silly if you conceded now.

The amusing part is scrolling up and seeing the post in which you said you couldn't continue... and then continued. You've responded to me four times since you stated that you couldn't continue.

 

[ReturningHawk]

You can't do it, can you? You can't respond to the actual point that was being made. You're too committed to your strawman argument that you would look silly if you conceded now.

The amusing part is scrolling up and seeing the post in which you said you couldn't continue... and then continued. You've responded to me four times since you stated that you couldn't continue.

This is full commitment, yes