Analysis Completely Subjective Post-Round-One List Analysis

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There are many ways to analyse a list of players, be it on the basis of stats, age profile, or position. However stats can be accumulated cheaply, players can be young and crap or old and still elite, and roles can change week to week or quarter to quarter. So I present you instead with a breakdown of which of our players are "good" and "not very good", shunning any suggestion of objectivity or, frankly, logic.

Here's how we're going to do it. As we have to name 22 players before a game, I'm going to break our players down into where they ought to fit in a numbered rank in the 22 of a competitive AFL team, in the tiered format of 4-7-7-4. Not necessarily our 4-7-7-4, but where our players would fall in a hypothetically competitive team's 4-7-7-4. There is no particular reason for doing so except that I find it illustrative... and this is my thread so suck it up. I will label the tiers thusly;

1-4 "Elite players": These are the players who are playing at the height of their powers, and provide matchup headaches for opposition coaches and fans. You can go to a game, watch this player play, and think happily to yourself "they don't have one of him on their team", "he could prove the difference". These players are comparable to the best four players in any other finals-bound team.

5-11 "Core players": These players are automatic selections every week, are dependable and we hope to have them playing for us for as long as they maintain this standard. They may provide a matchup advantage against their direct opponent, but are unlikely to be a weak link. On any given day, with a good outing they could be our BOG. They would be begrudgingly considered a "good" player by opposition fans who have a clue.

12-18 "Role players": These players can generally be counted upon to fill a necessary role on the field to an AFL standard, but are unlikely to regularly provide a matchup advantage. They may be able to nullify an opponent. They are virtually auto selections, but if opposition matchups or conditions dictate, they could very occasionally be overlooked for selection. These players are dependable and should not be considered a "weak link" in the chain.

19-22 "Interchange players": Players who are more likely to be subject to opposition matchups for selection week-to-week, and in terms of talent they aren't going to scare anybody or cause sleepless nights. However supporters should feel comfortable having them in the team knowing they can serve their purpose. In fact, we should feel comfortable having four of these players on the list each week, as opposed to these guys being the last one picked each week. Alternatively, these players could be talented young players who need to have games poured into them, without being flat-out gifted (because again, this is a competitive team, got it?).

Everyone else: Potentially talented youngsters who have yet to demand a game in the sense of knocking down the door or warranting "blooding", players who should only get a game in the case of an injury to someone with their specific role, players who are past it, players who were never "it" and are unlikely to become "it" any time soon.

Ok, so here's our list as I see it. Players within tiers are numbered but not in any order.

Elite 1-4
1. Jamie Elliott
2. Jeremy Howe

Core 5-11
5. Adam Treloar
6. Taylor Adams
7. Brodie Grundy
8. Darcy Moore
9. Steele Sidebottom
10. Scott Pendlebury
11. Jordan De Goey
11. (b) Daniel Wells

Role Players 12-18
12. Ben Reid
13. Brayden Maynard
14. Alex Fasolo
15. Sam Murray

Interchange 19-22
19. Lynden Dunn
20. Tim Broomhead
21. Travis Varcoe
22. Tom Phillips
22. (b) Jack Crisp
22. (c) Will Hoskin-Elliott
22. (d) Tyson Goldsack
22. (e) Jaidyn Stephenson
22. (f) Josh Thomas
22. (g) Tom Langdon
22. (h) Levi Greenwood

So looking at this list, we have obvious problems with top-end talent. We have fewer elite players than we require, and Elliott is regularly injured. Of our core players, Pendlebury appears to be on the decline, anything we get from Daniel Wells is a bonus, but this group is solid without having a glut of potential game-changers in the making. Ben Reid may warrant elevating back to this group if played in defence.

Our role players are sadly lacking. This probably speaks to the amount of turnover our list has had, and the high number of players we seem to be utilising over the course of a season relative to other clubs. I've been quite generous even adding Murray to this group based on one game, for that matter, but he looked solid and should clearly be given a number of games to establish himself.

Our interchange is pretty deep, but of course these players aren't playing as interchange options in our team in the real world. I wouldn't feel great about having four of these guys listed on our bench going into a game, but then again that's the point.

Essentially, we can muster a maximum of 18 AFL-quality players each week, and that needs to change. We have reason to be hopeful about several of our younger brigade; the likes of McLarty, Callum Brown, Daicos, Murphy, Kirby etc. but every team has these... and then we have players like Scharenberg and Aish who have shown glimpses at times but who are really at the crossroads and will need to step up to continue an AFL career. Our player development needs to be improved out of sight to rectify the deficiencies in our list, and then we need to get (largely) the same 22 guys playing as many games together as possible, particularly as we also seem to lack leadership and understanding between our forward, mid and defensive units... but that's a story for another day.
 
I would agree with that list. I would only really have Elliot in the core group as he has been injured so often the past few seasons. Overall there are far too many passengers being carried each week.

It seems we have shot ourselves in the foot with drafting and trading. Our core/elite group should consist of players such as Broomhead, Ben Kennedy, Scharenberg, Freeman, Aish and even Sier (given where they were all drafted), and De Goey should be in the elite group. We have also traded away quality picks for players such as Treloar and Adams who given what we paid should be at the very top of the list.

Poor list management for too long
 
Why don't we add players to the mix that we could/should have had?

James Stewart - we passed him up as father-son, in the 2012 draft we took 18. Grundy (success), 19. Kennedy (fail) and 20. Broomhead (unproven/likely fail).

Had a cracking round 1 game against Adelaide, looks like a solid forward line option which we really could have done with.
 

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Why don't we add players to the mix that we could/should have had?

James Stewart - we passed him up as father-son, in the 2012 draft we took 18. Grundy (success), 19. Kennedy (fail) and 20. Broomhead (unproven/likely fail).

Had a cracking round 1 game against Adelaide, looks like a solid forward line option which we really could have done with.

Stewart, Seedsman, Kelly and Hartley all walk in to our best 22. That was my take away from the crows v dons game
 
The way he's gone about it for the last half a year, I'd consider bumping Sidey towards elite.

Treloar *should* be there by now too, but he's really stalled a rung below.

I'd also say that Dunn, Crisp, Varcoe and WHE are pretty much the definition of role players. I have no doubt they could play a very solid role in a premiership side if the team around them was strong enough.
 
Stewart, Seedsman, Kelly and Hartley all walk in to our best 22. That was my take away from the crows v dons game
Yes I was thinking about that watching the game too. Conclusion I came to was none of them would make any real impact for our team though.
 
Yes I was thinking about that watching the game too. Conclusion I came to was none of them would make any real impact for our team though.

But that's the thing that annoys me most, you don't know unless you pick them and why weren't they given the chance?
 
Hartley had massive shoulder issues, at least two reconstructions that I can recall. Sometimes those guys just need a change of scenery and the carrot of a guaranteed game once fit, which Essendon could dangle in front of him at the time.
 
Only 4 changes:

Move De Gooey down to Role Players
Move Dunn up to Role Players
Move Goldsack up to Role Players
Move Hoskin-Elliott up to Role Players.

I think Dunn, Goldsack and H-E have provided just as much if not more than De Gooey over the past 12 months.

That may change this year though.
 
Only 4 changes:

Move De Gooey down to Role Players
Move Dunn up to Role Players
Move Goldsack up to Role Players
Move Hoskin-Elliott up to Role Players.

I think Dunn, Goldsack and H-E have provided just as much if not more than De Gooey over the past 12 months.

That may change this year though.
All of those were borderline for me so I completely understand where you’re coming from.
 
Stewart, Seedsman, Kelly and Hartley all walk in to our best 22. That was my take away from the crows v dons game

Helps that Seedsman and Stewart play in a Good Side but Kelly get a Game and Hartley would mean we leave Moore Forward where he should play
 
Hartley had massive shoulder issues, at least two reconstructions that I can recall. Sometimes those guys just need a change of scenery and the carrot of a guaranteed game once fit, which Essendon could dangle in front of him at the time.

Because the Drug Cheats where serving there 1 Year Suspension
 

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Hartley had massive shoulder issues, at least two reconstructions that I can recall. Sometimes those guys just need a change of scenery and the carrot of a guaranteed game once fit, which Essendon could dangle in front of him at the time.

Yeah you're right, if we'd redrafted Hartley we'd have missed out on: 36. Brayden Sier, 58. Tom Phillips, 63. Rupert Wills, and 65. Ben Crocker. We'd have been a laughing stock if we'd missed out on any of those 4 wouldn't we.
 
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Certainly wasn't a great time to rejig the list

Your list in damming and it shows the problems and until we get serious and draft hard players it's gonna be de ja vue

Kennedy picked so high ?
Broomhead
Aish
Sharenburg
All sa We're this lot picked by RENDALL?
Freeman , unlucky sod but can play
The. Throw in smith oxley Phillips mayne langdon

That's 5 and at least 3 should be on 50+ games

And I think he( RENDALL) cost us Taylor ( Melb) recruiting nous

Perhaps Pendels +pick should have been traded to gws for patton/ Cameron and adams and would have got done whilst Boyd was there
Pass on treleor and keep the picks
Ramsay delisted for smith , and still no ba k pocket
Couple that with Abbott and marsh leaving both power athletes , both gone
 
Hartley had massive shoulder issues, at least two reconstructions that I can recall. Sometimes those guys just need a change of scenery and the carrot of a guaranteed game once fit, which Essendon could dangle in front of him at the time.
He’s also admitted his attitude wasn’t the best and being dropped gave him a kick.

Yeah you're right, if we'd redrafted Hartley we'd have missed out on: 36. Brayden Sier, 58. Tom Phillips, 63. Rupert Wills, and 65. Ben Crocker. We'd have been a laughing stock if we'd missed out on any of those 4 wouldn't we.
I would have tried to trade out Frost or even Brown for an extra pick on the thinking we’d get a better pick for Frost/Brown than we would have spent on Hartley.
 
He’s also admitted his attitude wasn’t the best and being dropped gave him a kick.


I would have tried to trade out Frost or even Brown for an extra pick on the thinking we’d get a better pick for Frost/Brown than we would have spent on Hartley.

not saying he shouldn't have been cut/dropped, but why not re-draft him?
 
TRS - very small sample size of one game.
I suspect if you did this after last season:
JDG
Grundy
Moore
Sidey
Could be in the Elite group.
And overall, promotion of other players to higher categories also likely.

So I dont see the situation as dire as you.
 
There are many ways to analyse a list of players, be it on the basis of stats, age profile, or position. However stats can be accumulated cheaply, players can be young and crap or old and still elite, and roles can change week to week or quarter to quarter. So I present you instead with a breakdown of which of our players are "good" and "not very good", shunning any suggestion of objectivity or, frankly, logic.

Here's how we're going to do it. As we have to name 22 players before a game, I'm going to break our players down into where they ought to fit in a numbered rank in the 22 of a competitive AFL team, in the tiered format of 4-7-7-4. Not necessarily our 4-7-7-4, but where our players would fall in a hypothetically competitive team's 4-7-7-4. There is no particular reason for doing so except that I find it illustrative... and this is my thread so suck it up. I will label the tiers thusly;

1-4 "Elite players": These are the players who are playing at the height of their powers, and provide matchup headaches for opposition coaches and fans. You can go to a game, watch this player play, and think happily to yourself "they don't have one of him on their team", "he could prove the difference". These players are comparable to the best four players in any other finals-bound team.

5-11 "Core players": These players are automatic selections every week, are dependable and we hope to have them playing for us for as long as they maintain this standard. They may provide a matchup advantage against their direct opponent, but are unlikely to be a weak link. On any given day, with a good outing they could be our BOG. They would be begrudgingly considered a "good" player by opposition fans who have a clue.

12-18 "Role players": These players can generally be counted upon to fill a necessary role on the field to an AFL standard, but are unlikely to regularly provide a matchup advantage. They may be able to nullify an opponent. They are virtually auto selections, but if opposition matchups or conditions dictate, they could very occasionally be overlooked for selection. These players are dependable and should not be considered a "weak link" in the chain.

19-22 "Interchange players": Players who are more likely to be subject to opposition matchups for selection week-to-week, and in terms of talent they aren't going to scare anybody or cause sleepless nights. However supporters should feel comfortable having them in the team knowing they can serve their purpose. In fact, we should feel comfortable having four of these players on the list each week, as opposed to these guys being the last one picked each week. Alternatively, these players could be talented young players who need to have games poured into them, without being flat-out gifted (because again, this is a competitive team, got it?).

Everyone else: Potentially talented youngsters who have yet to demand a game in the sense of knocking down the door or warranting "blooding", players who should only get a game in the case of an injury to someone with their specific role, players who are past it, players who were never "it" and are unlikely to become "it" any time soon.

Ok, so here's our list as I see it. Players within tiers are numbered but not in any order.

Elite 1-4
1. Jamie Elliott
2. Jeremy Howe

Core 5-11
5. Adam Treloar
6. Taylor Adams
7. Brodie Grundy
8. Darcy Moore
9. Steele Sidebottom
10. Scott Pendlebury
11. Jordan De Goey
11. (b) Daniel Wells

Role Players 12-18
12. Ben Reid
13. Brayden Maynard
14. Alex Fasolo
15. Sam Murray

Interchange 19-22
19. Lynden Dunn
20. Tim Broomhead
21. Travis Varcoe
22. Tom Phillips
22. (b) Jack Crisp
22. (c) Will Hoskin-Elliott
22. (d) Tyson Goldsack
22. (e) Jaidyn Stephenson
22. (f) Josh Thomas
22. (g) Tom Langdon
22. (h) Levi Greenwood

So looking at this list, we have obvious problems with top-end talent. We have fewer elite players than we require, and Elliott is regularly injured. Of our core players, Pendlebury appears to be on the decline, anything we get from Daniel Wells is a bonus, but this group is solid without having a glut of potential game-changers in the making. Ben Reid may warrant elevating back to this group if played in defence.

Our role players are sadly lacking. This probably speaks to the amount of turnover our list has had, and the high number of players we seem to be utilising over the course of a season relative to other clubs. I've been quite generous even adding Murray to this group based on one game, for that matter, but he looked solid and should clearly be given a number of games to establish himself.

Our interchange is pretty deep, but of course these players aren't playing as interchange options in our team in the real world. I wouldn't feel great about having four of these guys listed on our bench going into a game, but then again that's the point.

Essentially, we can muster a maximum of 18 AFL-quality players each week, and that needs to change. We have reason to be hopeful about several of our younger brigade; the likes of McLarty, Callum Brown, Daicos, Murphy, Kirby etc. but every team has these... and then we have players like Scharenberg and Aish who have shown glimpses at times but who are really at the crossroads and will need to step up to continue an AFL career. Our player development needs to be improved out of sight to rectify the deficiencies in our list, and then we need to get (largely) the same 22 guys playing as many games together as possible, particularly as we also seem to lack leadership and understanding between our forward, mid and defensive units... but that's a story for another day.
Good assessment, looking over your list it seems our elite players have dropped off (Cloke, Swan, Pendlebury etc), but the younger players either didn’t or haven’t yet stepped up to fill the breach.
 
There are many ways to analyse a list of players, be it on the basis of stats, age profile, or position. However stats can be accumulated cheaply, players can be young and crap or old and still elite, and roles can change week to week or quarter to quarter. So I present you instead with a breakdown of which of our players are "good" and "not very good", shunning any suggestion of objectivity or, frankly, logic.

Here's how we're going to do it. As we have to name 22 players before a game, I'm going to break our players down into where they ought to fit in a numbered rank in the 22 of a competitive AFL team, in the tiered format of 4-7-7-4. Not necessarily our 4-7-7-4, but where our players would fall in a hypothetically competitive team's 4-7-7-4. There is no particular reason for doing so except that I find it illustrative... and this is my thread so suck it up. I will label the tiers thusly;

1-4 "Elite players": These are the players who are playing at the height of their powers, and provide matchup headaches for opposition coaches and fans. You can go to a game, watch this player play, and think happily to yourself "they don't have one of him on their team", "he could prove the difference". These players are comparable to the best four players in any other finals-bound team.

5-11 "Core players": These players are automatic selections every week, are dependable and we hope to have them playing for us for as long as they maintain this standard. They may provide a matchup advantage against their direct opponent, but are unlikely to be a weak link. On any given day, with a good outing they could be our BOG. They would be begrudgingly considered a "good" player by opposition fans who have a clue.

12-18 "Role players": These players can generally be counted upon to fill a necessary role on the field to an AFL standard, but are unlikely to regularly provide a matchup advantage. They may be able to nullify an opponent. They are virtually auto selections, but if opposition matchups or conditions dictate, they could very occasionally be overlooked for selection. These players are dependable and should not be considered a "weak link" in the chain.

19-22 "Interchange players": Players who are more likely to be subject to opposition matchups for selection week-to-week, and in terms of talent they aren't going to scare anybody or cause sleepless nights. However supporters should feel comfortable having them in the team knowing they can serve their purpose. In fact, we should feel comfortable having four of these players on the list each week, as opposed to these guys being the last one picked each week. Alternatively, these players could be talented young players who need to have games poured into them, without being flat-out gifted (because again, this is a competitive team, got it?).

Everyone else: Potentially talented youngsters who have yet to demand a game in the sense of knocking down the door or warranting "blooding", players who should only get a game in the case of an injury to someone with their specific role, players who are past it, players who were never "it" and are unlikely to become "it" any time soon.

Ok, so here's our list as I see it. Players within tiers are numbered but not in any order.

Elite 1-4
1. Jamie Elliott
2. Jeremy Howe

Core 5-11
5. Adam Treloar
6. Taylor Adams
7. Brodie Grundy
8. Darcy Moore
9. Steele Sidebottom
10. Scott Pendlebury
11. Jordan De Goey
11. (b) Daniel Wells

Role Players 12-18
12. Ben Reid
13. Brayden Maynard
14. Alex Fasolo
15. Sam Murray

Interchange 19-22
19. Lynden Dunn
20. Tim Broomhead
21. Travis Varcoe
22. Tom Phillips
22. (b) Jack Crisp
22. (c) Will Hoskin-Elliott
22. (d) Tyson Goldsack
22. (e) Jaidyn Stephenson
22. (f) Josh Thomas
22. (g) Tom Langdon
22. (h) Levi Greenwood

So looking at this list, we have obvious problems with top-end talent. We have fewer elite players than we require, and Elliott is regularly injured. Of our core players, Pendlebury appears to be on the decline, anything we get from Daniel Wells is a bonus, but this group is solid without having a glut of potential game-changers in the making. Ben Reid may warrant elevating back to this group if played in defence.

Our role players are sadly lacking. This probably speaks to the amount of turnover our list has had, and the high number of players we seem to be utilising over the course of a season relative to other clubs. I've been quite generous even adding Murray to this group based on one game, for that matter, but he looked solid and should clearly be given a number of games to establish himself.

Our interchange is pretty deep, but of course these players aren't playing as interchange options in our team in the real world. I wouldn't feel great about having four of these guys listed on our bench going into a game, but then again that's the point.

Essentially, we can muster a maximum of 18 AFL-quality players each week, and that needs to change. We have reason to be hopeful about several of our younger brigade; the likes of McLarty, Callum Brown, Daicos, Murphy, Kirby etc. but every team has these... and then we have players like Scharenberg and Aish who have shown glimpses at times but who are really at the crossroads and will need to step up to continue an AFL career. Our player development needs to be improved out of sight to rectify the deficiencies in our list, and then we need to get (largely) the same 22 guys playing as many games together as possible, particularly as we also seem to lack leadership and understanding between our forward, mid and defensive units... but that's a story for another day.

Nice way of breaking it down TRS although I'd probably rate WHE & Dunn a bit higher than that (WHE in terms of both potential and output, Dunn on output & effort) but it's pretty grim overall.

People looking back at father son picks we may/should have taken, or other players we've given up on and are doing well are missing the point IMO. Clearly we've made some significant recruiting and list management blunders but after round 1 of a season we should really be trying to focus on what we do have and what we can get out of the current situation.

For me we should look at gradually bringing the next level of talent through and exposing them to senior footy throughout the year. Some will work (as a frame of reference, Stephenson and Murray were probably both in our best half a dozen against Hawthorn), some won't, but it's about getting as many guys a taste of senior footy as possible, but while still trying to win as many games as possible.

What stands out to me is that we really lack the ability to put a score on the board and that clearly stems from the way we are moving the footy out of defense and through the midfield. So many other sides in round 1 played fast attacking footy through the corridor and we persist with chipping the ball around until we turn it over, either through poor skill execution or bad decision making.

Based on this I'd really love for us to look at the guys in the back half (Crisp, Langdon, Maynard) and on the outside (Phillips, Smith) that are hurting us by foot & whether they're best suited to those roles and if not, do we look at bringing someone else through. It may end up being Scharenberg, Murphy or someone else, but we really need to change something. In the immediate future, hopefully McClarty is considered to replace Cox, and actually holds a few marks.

But, to hear the coach nominate players of the ilk of Blair and Mayne as potential players to come in and help our current predicament - wow. The response to the Hawthorn loss will be telling.
 
TRS - very small sample size of one game.
I suspect if you did this after last season:
JDG
Grundy
Moore
Sidey
Could be in the Elite group.
And overall, promotion of other players to higher categories also likely.

So I dont see the situation as dire as you.
Respectfully, I disagree. JDG is definitely not elite, and Moore’s output is far too variable at this stage to be classified as elite. Sidey I don’t rate as highly as most, he too often fails to put the ball to the advantage of a teammate. Grundy would be bordering on elite on his best form, I will concede.

But essentially I’ve tried to stick to the definitions in the OP, and there’s no way opposition clubs or supporters would be dreading playing JDG or Moore at this juncture.
 
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Our last two Copeland winners not in the elite category?
Lost me right there.
If our Copeland winners aren’t elite, then the club is farked.
Elite for our list, certainly.

Elite in the competition, to the extent that they could match up against the best four players of the top eight clubs of last season? I don’t think so on current output.
 

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