Discussion Coping with “Sainthood”

MUFKilda

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Oct 8, 2017
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Manchester, England
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I love the saints but I harbour a pretty dark secret I’ve been trying to hide on here coz I know how many people on this forum would be disgusted but I actually support two teams. St Kilda has always and will always be my favourite - nothing could ever change that - but I am pretty much an honorary Carlton supporter as well.
Reported :p
 
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austinnn

Veteran GOP
Nov 7, 2012
4,634
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France
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Liverpool FC, Bristol City FC
As most of those who know me know, I follow Liverpool FC in the English Premier League. In many ways the club is the same as the Saints; a little cultish, a little apart from the rest of the league, (IMO of course) etc. But there is one inescapable difference; history.

The club went though relative hard times about 12 years ago when it was sold to American investors Hicks and Gillette who proceeded to bleed the club dry like the Glazers did and do to the Mancs. Luckily Hicks and Gillette were eventually so broke that they were forced by the bank to sell the club, and even more luckily, the folks they sold it to have been excellent custodians, investing in their club intelligently, against plenty of pressure from the traditional supporters at times. Not every move they made was the right one, but eight and a half years later, you'd have to say they have been great for the club overall, and have it poised to create a dynasty at the top.

Going through that and coming out the other side, it made me realise that the only way for St Kilda to get anywhere starts with money.

Money buys the best coaching staff, and most importantly nowadays, the professionals in back of house who can make informed intelligent decisions. Money buys facilities that allow professional sports people to reach their potential. Money also buys good marketing, merchandising, membership services that keep people coming back for more and keep more people coming.

Once you've got the money, you get the coaches. When you get the coaches, you get teams over performing and showing potential to be better than they are now. When that happens, you get buy in from better players from rivals and from the players from your club that you need to keep. When that happens, you usually get more consistency and better results, which in turn brings in better players and the cycle continues.

But it starts from having the right people running the club, and making good decisions. Something we've fundamentally lacked over the years. I thought the Butters admin at first was just what the club needed, but it didn't last long. Finnis has in many ways brought this club into the modern era off field, he seems to get the way sport is going. But the football side has been stagnant for nearly a decade. Bassat could be the answer for us, as could Lethlean. But until we get strong continued investment we'll always be taking three steps forward and two back.

Will it ever come? Doubtful. No rich investor sees AFL as the goldmine that football/soccer is. Will the sport even exist on a professional level in 50 years? The serious injuries stack up, will parents continue to encourage their kids to pursue a career where they could end up like Paddy McCartin or Koby Stevens, or even just like Jack Steven? There are currently 6 AFL players who earn more than a million dollars anually, which is about half of what Neymar Jr earns... in a WEEK. There are 18 AFL clubs, whereas there are countless football or basketball clubs around the world. Picking up AFL as a sport is the equivalent of learning to be fluent in Hungarian.

Just a depressing ramble, sorry. Anyway GO Saints!!!
 

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
23,626
50,573
Melbourne
AFL Club
St Kilda
As most of those who know me know, I follow Liverpool FC in the English Premier League. In many ways the club is the same as the Saints; a little cultish, a little apart from the rest of the league, (IMO of course) etc. But there is one inescapable difference; history.

The club went though relative hard times about 12 years ago when it was sold to American investors Hicks and Gillette who proceeded to bleed the club dry like the Glazers did and do to the Mancs. Luckily Hicks and Gillette were eventually so broke that they were forced by the bank to sell the club, and even more luckily, the folks they sold it to have been excellent custodians, investing in their club intelligently, against plenty of pressure from the traditional supporters at times. Not every move they made was the right one, but eight and a half years later, you'd have to say they have been great for the club overall, and have it poised to create a dynasty at the top.

Going through that and coming out the other side, it made me realise that the only way for St Kilda to get anywhere starts with money.

Money buys the best coaching staff, and most importantly nowadays, the professionals in back of house who can make informed intelligent decisions. Money buys facilities that allow professional sports people to reach their potential. Money also buys good marketing, merchandising, membership services that keep people coming back for more and keep more people coming.

Once you've got the money, you get the coaches. When you get the coaches, you get teams over performing and showing potential to be better than they are now. When that happens, you get buy in from better players from rivals and from the players from your club that you need to keep. When that happens, you usually get more consistency and better results, which in turn brings in better players and the cycle continues.

But it starts from having the right people running the club, and making good decisions. Something we've fundamentally lacked over the years. I thought the Butters admin at first was just what the club needed, but it didn't last long. Finnis has in many ways brought this club into the modern era off field, he seems to get the way sport is going. But the football side has been stagnant for nearly a decade. Bassat could be the answer for us, as could Lethlean. But until we get strong continued investment we'll always be taking three steps forward and two back.

Will it ever come? Doubtful. No rich investor sees AFL as the goldmine that football/soccer is. Will the sport even exist on a professional level in 50 years? The serious injuries stack up, will parents continue to encourage their kids to pursue a career where they could end up like Paddy McCartin or Koby Stevens, or even just like Jack Steven? There are currently 6 AFL players who earn more than a million dollars anually, which is about half of what Neymar Jr earns... in a WEEK. There are 18 AFL clubs, whereas there are countless football or basketball clubs around the world. Picking up AFL as a sport is the equivalent of learning to be fluent in Hungarian.

Just a depressing ramble, sorry. Anyway GO Saints!!!
Yeah, my son has gone over to soccer and the dream of playing proffessionally is there for all kids, he sees asian countries paying big money for guys who are A league quality. Pretty much suburban football in most parts of the world. As well run as footy is and as easy as the pathway is, soccer has big dollars to dangle. It's not going to change in a hurry. He is really disinterested in footy now and it's a struggle to even get him to games. It's a bit depressing but what can you do. Saints will come good one day, just hope it's soon.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
16,424
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Yeah, my son has gone over to soccer and the dream of playing proffessionally is there for all kids, he sees asian countries paying big money for guys who are A league quality. Pretty much suburban football in most parts of the world. As well run as footy is and as easy as the pathway is, soccer has big dollars to dangle. It's not going to change in a hurry. He is really disinterested in footy now and it's a struggle to even get him to games. It's a bit depressing but what can you do. Saints will come good one day, just hope it's soon.
Yes kids play soccer. Adults don’t. It’s that simple. That’s when they go to other sports. People still think soccer is a threat. The smartest thing the afl ever did is get future mums to play footy. Now they will be saying to their kids play footy instead of the safety of soccer. Pretty sure 500k is big money to a 13 year old when they make their decisions. There is no proof people play silly soccer in numbers because of the huge money you can earn overseas.
 
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mightymalaka

What we have here is a failure to communicate!
May 7, 2018
5,158
15,706
Road to Nowhere
AFL Club
St Kilda
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Manchester United
As most of those who know me know, I follow Liverpool FC in the English Premier League. In many ways the club is the same as the Saints; a little cultish, a little apart from the rest of the league, (IMO of course) etc. But there is one inescapable difference; history.

The club went though relative hard times about 12 years ago when it was sold to American investors Hicks and Gillette who proceeded to bleed the club dry like the Glazers did and do to the Mancs. Luckily Hicks and Gillette were eventually so broke that they were forced by the bank to sell the club, and even more luckily, the folks they sold it to have been excellent custodians, investing in their club intelligently, against plenty of pressure from the traditional supporters at times. Not every move they made was the right one, but eight and a half years later, you'd have to say they have been great for the club overall, and have it poised to create a dynasty at the top.

Going through that and coming out the other side, it made me realise that the only way for St Kilda to get anywhere starts with money.

Money buys the best coaching staff, and most importantly nowadays, the professionals in back of house who can make informed intelligent decisions. Money buys facilities that allow professional sports people to reach their potential. Money also buys good marketing, merchandising, membership services that keep people coming back for more and keep more people coming.

Once you've got the money, you get the coaches. When you get the coaches, you get teams over performing and showing potential to be better than they are now. When that happens, you get buy in from better players from rivals and from the players from your club that you need to keep. When that happens, you usually get more consistency and better results, which in turn brings in better players and the cycle continues.

But it starts from having the right people running the club, and making good decisions. Something we've fundamentally lacked over the years. I thought the Butters admin at first was just what the club needed, but it didn't last long. Finnis has in many ways brought this club into the modern era off field, he seems to get the way sport is going. But the football side has been stagnant for nearly a decade. Bassat could be the answer for us, as could Lethlean. But until we get strong continued investment we'll always be taking three steps forward and two back.

Will it ever come? Doubtful. No rich investor sees AFL as the goldmine that football/soccer is. Will the sport even exist on a professional level in 50 years? The serious injuries stack up, will parents continue to encourage their kids to pursue a career where they could end up like Paddy McCartin or Koby Stevens, or even just like Jack Steven? There are currently 6 AFL players who earn more than a million dollars anually, which is about half of what Neymar Jr earns... in a WEEK. There are 18 AFL clubs, whereas there are countless football or basketball clubs around the world. Picking up AFL as a sport is the equivalent of learning to be fluent in Hungarian.

Just a depressing ramble, sorry. Anyway GO Saints!!!
I'm already struggling to maintain my love for the Saints without you comparing them to bloody Liverpool! :devil:
 

George

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Aug 17, 2015
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Interesting hearing all this about Perth. I’ve always wanted to go to Perth yet never been. One day. But yeah didn’t realise so many sainters there. I thought Carlton had the best non WA team support over there. I’m in northern Melbourne (north west actually) so everyone is Essendon or Collingwood here. Booooooooring. Meeting a sainter is actually a big deal.
Perth is a beautiful city but I liked Fremantle more - very old english style buildings, looks like a country town. Think of a better version of Geelong or something. Beaches are incredible too. Cottesloe beach popular but a must see.

And yes...Saints fans everywhere.
 

George

Moderator
Aug 17, 2015
14,316
45,464
Victoria
AFL Club
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Other Teams
Philadelphia Eagles Liverpool
As most of those who know me know, I follow Liverpool FC in the English Premier League. In many ways the club is the same as the Saints; a little cultish, a little apart from the rest of the league, (IMO of course) etc. But there is one inescapable difference; history.

The club went though relative hard times about 12 years ago when it was sold to American investors Hicks and Gillette who proceeded to bleed the club dry like the Glazers did and do to the Mancs. Luckily Hicks and Gillette were eventually so broke that they were forced by the bank to sell the club, and even more luckily, the folks they sold it to have been excellent custodians, investing in their club intelligently, against plenty of pressure from the traditional supporters at times. Not every move they made was the right one, but eight and a half years later, you'd have to say they have been great for the club overall, and have it poised to create a dynasty at the top.

Going through that and coming out the other side, it made me realise that the only way for St Kilda to get anywhere starts with money.

Money buys the best coaching staff, and most importantly nowadays, the professionals in back of house who can make informed intelligent decisions. Money buys facilities that allow professional sports people to reach their potential. Money also buys good marketing, merchandising, membership services that keep people coming back for more and keep more people coming.

Once you've got the money, you get the coaches. When you get the coaches, you get teams over performing and showing potential to be better than they are now. When that happens, you get buy in from better players from rivals and from the players from your club that you need to keep. When that happens, you usually get more consistency and better results, which in turn brings in better players and the cycle continues.

But it starts from having the right people running the club, and making good decisions. Something we've fundamentally lacked over the years. I thought the Butters admin at first was just what the club needed, but it didn't last long. Finnis has in many ways brought this club into the modern era off field, he seems to get the way sport is going. But the football side has been stagnant for nearly a decade. Bassat could be the answer for us, as could Lethlean. But until we get strong continued investment we'll always be taking three steps forward and two back.

Will it ever come? Doubtful. No rich investor sees AFL as the goldmine that football/soccer is. Will the sport even exist on a professional level in 50 years? The serious injuries stack up, will parents continue to encourage their kids to pursue a career where they could end up like Paddy McCartin or Koby Stevens, or even just like Jack Steven? There are currently 6 AFL players who earn more than a million dollars anually, which is about half of what Neymar Jr earns... in a WEEK. There are 18 AFL clubs, whereas there are countless football or basketball clubs around the world. Picking up AFL as a sport is the equivalent of learning to be fluent in Hungarian.

Just a depressing ramble, sorry. Anyway GO Saints!!!
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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Perth is a beautiful city but I liked Fremantle more - very old english style buildings, looks like a country town. Think of a better version of Geelong or something. Beaches are incredible too. Cottesloe beach popular but a must see.

And yes...Saints fans everywhere.
We stayed in freo in 1986 for the America’s cup. They did it up just before. Obviously even better now. Talk about going off back then. They also had this world one day championship The west India’s we’re playing. They were out at every night spot you could find. Viv in fine form. I remember we at this place called Steve’s place for a Sunday session and big Joel Garner went to the toilet and I reckon 50 followed him in just to see how big it was. We know what it is
 

mightymalaka

What we have here is a failure to communicate!
May 7, 2018
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At least he’s not a Blue bagger ;)
Nah i can cop that , or is it Kop that!
When i was a young lad i also went to many Carlton games due to a big brother and many mates who loved them
And still to this day that Blues side from the late 70's and early 80's are probably the most exhilarating footy i have ever witnessed!
Loved the dramatic they did. Probably the most entertaining and theatrical side together with their fans at the time made for a welcome
Distraction from some of the pain the Saints were dishing up!
 

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OES

Nigel Staplecock
Jul 26, 2006
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Nah i can cop that , or is it Kop that!
When i was a young lad i also went to many Carlton games due to a big brother and many mates who loved them
And still to this day that Blues side from the late 70's and early 80's are probably the most exhilarating footy i have ever witnessed!
Loved the dramatic they did. Probably the most entertaining and theatrical side together with their fans at the time made for a welcome
Distraction from some of the pain the Saints were dishing up!
Because I was born in 84, the whole “let them rot” and most of John Elliot’s tenure doesn’t really resonate with me. I remember when I joined saintsational in 2005 I was shocked to find out how saints fans felt about Carlton. One thing I am enjoying though is being able to watch them from their lowest and getting to experience this rebuild from the very beginning and not having to be too worried about the emotional investment.
 

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
23,626
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Yes kids play soccer. Adults don’t. It’s that simple. That’s when they go to other sports. People still think soccer is a threat. The smartest thing the afl ever did is get future mums to play footy. Now they will be saying to their kids play footy instead of the safety of soccer. Pretty sure 500k is big money to a 13 year old when they make their decisions. There is no proof people play silly soccer in numbers because of the huge money you can earn overseas.

My son was sick of getting injured too, he's 13 so there are some kids that grew to man size already and he ws playing midfield, he's hard as nails but he was getting concussions from playing head over the ball with out being smart about it, he was getting sore feet and legs as well. He was getting up for training, then would just get right for games again and end up sore again.

Soccer is soft as, hardly any running at training and most skills based and match sim. Lazy little **** is enjoying not running heaps of laps. He's struggled not to run through players though, he's had a few yellow cards.

I don't think it's the mums any more it's the kids want to be like the Soccer stars. $90 million sounds like more.
 

mightymalaka

What we have here is a failure to communicate!
May 7, 2018
5,158
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Road to Nowhere
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Because I was born in 84, the whole “let them rot” and most of John Elliot’s tenure doesn’t really resonate with me. I remember when I joined saintsational in 2005 I was shocked to find out how saints fans felt about Carlton. One thing I am enjoying though is being able to watch them from their lowest and getting to experience this rebuild from the very beginning and not having to be too worried about the emotional investment.
Elliott's regime is why they are hated! Twas the beginning of the end for them as a club with soul!
They have never been the same since!
 

OES

Nigel Staplecock
Jul 26, 2006
30,304
21,682
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Elliott's regime is why they are hated! Twas the beginning of the end for them as a club with soul!
They have never been the same since!
Its when all the cheating happened right? Brown paper bags and the like. I don’t even really know those stories. I assume they are true. Not because I think they are a club with no soul; but because it just had to be happening all that time and them thinking they got away with it...
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
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My son was sick of getting injured too, he's 13 so there are some kids that grew to man size already and he ws playing midfield, he's hard as nails but he was getting concussions from playing head over the ball with out being smart about it, he was getting sore feet and legs as well. He was getting up for training, then would just get right for games again and end up sore again.

Soccer is soft as, hardly any running at training and most skills based and match sim. Lazy little **** is enjoying not running heaps of laps. He's struggled not to run through players though, he's had a few yellow cards.

I don't think it's the mums any more it's the kids want to be like the Soccer stars. $90 million sounds like more.
But it’s not showing in adult numbers. Kids like money a bit but they like being liked and good footballer is liked more than a good soccer player in Victoria.
 

StCicatriz

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 3, 2016
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As most of those who know me know, I follow Liverpool FC in the English Premier League. In many ways the club is the same as the Saints; a little cultish, a little apart from the rest of the league, (IMO of course) etc. But there is one inescapable difference; history.

The club went though relative hard times about 12 years ago when it was sold to American investors Hicks and Gillette who proceeded to bleed the club dry like the Glazers did and do to the Mancs. Luckily Hicks and Gillette were eventually so broke that they were forced by the bank to sell the club, and even more luckily, the folks they sold it to have been excellent custodians, investing in their club intelligently, against plenty of pressure from the traditional supporters at times. Not every move they made was the right one, but eight and a half years later, you'd have to say they have been great for the club overall, and have it poised to create a dynasty at the top.

Going through that and coming out the other side, it made me realise that the only way for St Kilda to get anywhere starts with money.

Money buys the best coaching staff, and most importantly nowadays, the professionals in back of house who can make informed intelligent decisions. Money buys facilities that allow professional sports people to reach their potential. Money also buys good marketing, merchandising, membership services that keep people coming back for more and keep more people coming.

Once you've got the money, you get the coaches. When you get the coaches, you get teams over performing and showing potential to be better than they are now. When that happens, you get buy in from better players from rivals and from the players from your club that you need to keep. When that happens, you usually get more consistency and better results, which in turn brings in better players and the cycle continues.

But it starts from having the right people running the club, and making good decisions. Something we've fundamentally lacked over the years. I thought the Butters admin at first was just what the club needed, but it didn't last long. Finnis has in many ways brought this club into the modern era off field, he seems to get the way sport is going. But the football side has been stagnant for nearly a decade. Bassat could be the answer for us, as could Lethlean. But until we get strong continued investment we'll always be taking three steps forward and two back.

Will it ever come? Doubtful. No rich investor sees AFL as the goldmine that football/soccer is. Will the sport even exist on a professional level in 50 years? The serious injuries stack up, will parents continue to encourage their kids to pursue a career where they could end up like Paddy McCartin or Koby Stevens, or even just like Jack Steven? There are currently 6 AFL players who earn more than a million dollars anually, which is about half of what Neymar Jr earns... in a WEEK. There are 18 AFL clubs, whereas there are countless football or basketball clubs around the world. Picking up AFL as a sport is the equivalent of learning to be fluent in Hungarian.

Just a depressing ramble, sorry. Anyway GO Saints!!!
Money's never been more important. Not so much declared money like football dept spending more what you can do offfield. Its turned into a country footy type setup
 

JiggsteR45

Team Captain
May 10, 2017
581
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Jiggster, you just never know what can happen. As Plugger66 said, it can change very quickly, and not just in Aussie Rules. Here in my home town, for example, older Man City fans used to say they would never see City as champions and perhaps wouldn't see them win any trophy again. Well, look at that now.

Whatever our backgrounds in following St Kilda, whether you are born into it, or, like me, a newcomer, we all know it's hard yakka, as I was advised when I first joined Big Footy. In fact I would change the club motto to 'hard yakka' :D. However, it's a great old club, not an artificially created franchise, and those who support it are not glory hunters but true fans. You can't buy that kind of loyalty.

One year of making finals and you just never know. I really hope you are at the MCG on the day Saints finally lift the big prize!:thumbsu:
Nice post mate! Yes, things CAN indeed “change very quickly” and there is always the “you just never know” factor too! However, I’ve got my head around it, and I’m fine, totally fine, knowing that it is highly unlikely that I’ll see the Saints win a flag. I prefer to just simply put “Flag dreams” aside and just barrack for the side, and let whatever will happen, just happen.
 

gringo2011

Premium Gold
Nov 12, 2011
23,626
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Melbourne
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But it’s not showing in adult numbers. Kids like money a bit but they like being liked and good footballer is liked more than a good soccer player in Victoria.
I reckon it will bite soon, none of his mates that are talented play footy any more. He has one mate who is in the soccer youth squads that travel overseas all the time, another plays the top level of club soccer and does training academy South Melbourne and the other who was in the Sandy dragons juniors has walked away because he's good at surfing and boxing as well, didn't like the workload.
 

plugger66

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 10, 2011
16,424
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I reckon it will bite soon, none of his mates that are talented play footy any more. He has one mate who is in the soccer youth squads that travel overseas all the time, another plays the top level of club soccer and does training academy South Melbourne and the other who was in the Sandy dragons juniors has walked away because he's good at surfing and boxing as well, didn't like the workload.
I’m just going by the numbers in local junior and senior footy. Not really dropping off. Certainly not as adults going to soccer. Far to expensive obviously they get many more as juniors because it’s easy to play certainly at a low level and less contact for the soft parents but with girls now playing footy those numbers continue to go up. Anyway footy will be around long enough for me my daughter and hopefully my daughters kids. It’s the greatest game in the world.
 
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Grav

Premiership Player
May 10, 2013
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The reason I follow the club is because I can recognise each player & call out their names when ever they are near the ball. Seeing that I’m too bloody old to try & learn another teams players names, I’ll stick with the Saints. :rolleyes:
Besides where else would you want to be when your on one of your long losing streaks than here in the Saints BF forum, it’s like sitting next to the old Bay13 with all the fights. :p
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
3,837
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that's incredibly sad

i'm not suggesting the club is at fault here, it seems to be an ongoing theme amongst all the clubs. the AFL is removing its self further and further from the fan. optus doesn't help it.

when my mate gets more access than our players to the ground because he needs to service equipment and can even take photos of himself on the ground, there's something wrong.
I think its a number of things in play .. I think there is the issue around insurance , there's the betting/inside information thing and I think the security thing is now so over the top... I heard a story of a player in Melbourne (not a saint) who forgot their id pass for a game even though this player was considerably well known he had to drive back home to get the pass to be allowed into the change rooms to play the game … he nearly missed the first team meeting because of it
 

st_trav_ofWA

Premiership Player
Aug 17, 2015
3,837
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they're everywhere. it's insane how many we have here.

for example moved out to southern suburbs. an hour from the city. regularly saw people in saints gear or with number plates around areas like rockingham and mandurah.

moved house again to the eastern suburbs, first trip, go to the local pub. i'm walking out with my polo on. a family is eating lunch with a small child in a high chair. he yells out to me go saints and points to his child bib which is st kilda.

i've driven through a suburb where fremantles HQ is and bang, house painted in saints colours.

go down south to Margaret river. 4 hours from perth. guy stops me. he mate your shirt is the same as my key ring!

hell i've been to coachella, 3 hours out of ******* los angeles and had some one yell out to me, go saints!

which is why i always believed your statement that we are as big as richmond, we just for what ever reason haven't converted them.
the most random place I've come across a saints fan was in Cusco in Peru.. we had just landed and I was struggling with the altitude so I went to sit down while our taxi came when the lady checking off the taxis in the taxi stand had a Saints membership pen (remember the one that had the pullout banner thing saying "go Saints" ) I asked her where she got it from turns out her son was dating a girl from Melbourne so he came back with all of this Saints stuff that he was giving to the family as gifts from his trip
 

st_trav_ofWA

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Aug 17, 2015
3,837
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It was a tough gig supporting the Saints and Subiaco in the 1970's and early 1980's. I seem to recall a period of about 3 or 4 years in the early 1980's when both Subiaco and St Kilda won on the same weekend only once!

I remember Subi winning the 1973 Grand Final against West Perth, my sister went to the game and I placed a clove of garlic on a plate for her when she came home (West Perth was a haven for Italians back then). I was overseas for the 1986 win against East Fremantle but saw the 1988 win against Claremont. We used to play our Grand Finals on Subi oval in under age football, it was a massive ground and plenty of space to run around in. We have been very lucky to have sustained success with Subiaco, something I would love to experience as a Saints fan.
hows my luck im a East Freo supporter … the G/F my boys got into we lost the colts g/f the Ressies G/f and the senior g/f … shocking day to go 0/3 ..
 
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