Cops

[bunsen burner]

What a double standard. You complain about how inept the force are but someone who wants to be a witness and do good is evil and deserved what came to him? You are utterly delusional if you think what you have just said has any rationale or logic behind it.

I couldn't come across anymore arrogant on the IQ front tonight so I may as well put it out there again and add some patronising to add a twinge of spice:

They're two different things. Mutually exclusive. The difference between smart people and dumb people are dumb people are simple. They couple different strands of logic, bundle them up, and can't distnguish between them. This is why dumb arse tend to see things in black or white "it's either this, or this, no inbetween".

So whilst you seem to only have the ability to slice this pizza up into two slices, let slice it further:

Criminal World

Andrew Petrelis was a drug courier. Took weed from Perth to Eastern states via plane, returned with class A such as speed, coke, heroin. Something like that. He allegedly worked for John Kizon.

He got busted. He turned witness against his colleagues. The problem I have with this:

If you play the game, you take the risk. If you take the risk and get caught you have to take the rap. You can't just go and save yourself but grassing everyone else up. That's just not cricket. it's not cricket in the school yard, business world, or criminal world. I suspect you can't detach yourself from the criminal element. Social etiquette is still social etiquette.

Furthermore, and more importantly, he snitched and the drug crew he worked for wanted to silence him. This is illegal but this is how the criminal world works.

The Police

The police are obligated to protect a person in the witness protection program. Only a small amount of people should be able to access that data. My understanding is that pretty much any cop could access it with their password. Time and user stamped and all but it's a bit late if the snitch gets popped.


The people who killed Petrelis: wrong and I would prefer they get busted
Petrelis: No sympathy. He engaged in criminal enterprise and broke the rules. He has paid for it with his life. Too bad. Them's the rules.
The Police: disgraceful. How can you trust these people?


So there is no double standard or contradiction because it's not as simple as you see it. You should try to broaden your horizons.

 

[dymot]

Not really any different to people telling people they are uneducated rednecks who associate with criminals.

I'm just clarifying where I come from.


Looks like we have gone 180 degrees. From bogan to stuck up elitist in a handful of posts.

You know, there's a bit argy bargy going on here and if you're not up to it then maybe this thread isn't for you.

So do I. But they aren't cops. The work for the Police Force but they are actually cops.

I was just returning serve with interest to Stratton but in saying that I think you'll find very few people with grades to go to uni who will choose to be a cop. Poor working conditions, poor pay, hard job, poor culture.

There's 3 reasons people join the force:

1. People who want to serve the community
2. People who want to make an official means of having power (uniform, gun, "I'm going to f*** you up" sort of attitude
3. People who don't have the grades to get a better job and think this is an okay careeer

Not a lot of people with grades good enough to go to uni out of that lot.


I don't usually disclose to people I went to private school but that was nothing to do with IQ and everything to dispel any ideas I'm some bloke from Broadmeadows or St Albans where that "f*** da cops" attitude is inbred.

Why would I do a job way below my pay grade with a bunch of power hungry inbreds?

Shit job, Shit pay, Shit conditions, Shit people. No thanks.

So we have the cpu nerd willing to tell us what is good and bad about the police force with conviction. I would say 6 weeks annual leave, decent overtime pay or additional holidays being accrued in lieu of overtime, a salary in the mid 60s for a base officer, decent sick leave and long service, secure position.

So do you earn 200k in your current position? Because that is what may of the senior members receive with qualifications at your age.

Secondly you must realise that you can be a bogan elitist. I know a guy who is an opthamologist who is bogan as bogan can be but makes sure everyone knows how elite in society he is.

I know plenty of people in both suburbs you mention who went to private schools and don't hold the mentality you are suggesting.

As for highly skilled and educated persons working within the force, I suggest you look at a man in Victoria who went by the name of Sir Ken Jones.

 

[bunsen burner]

So we have the cpu nerd willing to tell us what is good and bad about the police force with conviction.

"We". So your a cop. Explains your IQ.

I would say 6 weeks annual leave, decent overtime pay or additional holidays being accrued in lieu of overtime, a salary in the mid 60s for a base officer, decent sick leave and long service, secure position.

Risky job, stressful, deal with scumbags and people lying to you all day, hard to have friends outside the force, poor culture, exposed to corruption, writing statements all day, alcoholism culture, chauvenism culture.

Anyone with the grades to do a degree can get a much better career, and they're smart enough to know it. You have to really want to be a cop to choose it in front of a degree.

So do you earn 200k in your current position? Because that is what may of the senior members receive with qualifications at your age.

I seriously doubt it's that high. What level are we talking here? The elite people would but the majority of early 40s are probably Ds and senior sargeants etc. Don't think they'd be on $200k

I'm not going to tell you how much I earn but let's just say pound for pound, I earn a lot more in IT than I would being a cop (legit earnings that is)

Secondly you must realise that you can be a bogan elitist. I know a guy who is an opthamologist who is bogan as bogan can be but makes sure everyone knows how elite in society he is.

Sure, but apart from listening to rock music and preferring a pub counter meal than a fancy restaurant, I'm not a bogan. I don't look like a bogan, I don't dress like a bogan, my frinds aren't bogans, I don't have tatts, wear chains, drive a hotted up car, and I'm not into motor sport.

As for highly skilled and educated persons working within the force, I suggest you look at a man in Victoria who went by the name of Sir Ken Jones.

That's one dude. The simple facts are that most of you cops are dumbarses.

 

[dymot]

"We". So your a cop. Explains your IQ.



Risky job, stressful, deal with scumbags and people lying to you all day, hard to have friends outside the force, poor culture, exposed to corruption, writing statements all day, alcoholism culture, chauvenism culture.

Anyone with the grades to do a degree can get a much better career, and they're smart enough to know it. You have to really want to be a cop to choose it in front of a degree.


I seriously doubt it's that high. What level are we talking here? The elite people would but the majority of early 40s are probably Ds and senior sargeants etc. Don't think they'd be on $200k

I'm not going to tell you how much I earn but let's just say pound for pound, I earn a lot more in IT than I would being a cop (legit earnings that is)

Sure, but apart from listening to rock music and preferring a pub counter meal than a fancy restaurant, I'm not a bogan. I don't look like a bogan, I don't dress like a bogan, my frinds aren't bogans, I don't have tatts, wear chains, drive a hotted up car, and I'm not into motor sport.

That's one dude. The simple facts are that most of you cops are dumbarses.

LOL I am far from a cop. As for the highest paid members, the chief commissioner is on over 400k. And I think you'll find there are more people with degrees joining the police force because they need the degrees to facilitate a smoother transfer into other areas of the force or even require it to function in that part of the force. In Victoria they are now paying more to those who have degrees and depending on what it is considerably more to lure them from the private sector.

As for your comments on what a cop faces, I am pretty sure other professions such as highly paid doctors and lawyers accountants etc face the same problems.

 

[dymot]

I couldn't come across anymore arrogant on the IQ front tonight so I may as well put it out there again and add some patronising to add a twinge of spice:

They're two different things. Mutually exclusive. The difference between smart people and dumb people are dumb people are simple. They couple different strands of logic, bundle them up, and can't distnguish between them. This is why dumb arse tend to see things in black or white "it's either this, or this, no inbetween".

So whilst you seem to only have the ability to slice this pizza up into two slices, let slice it further:



Andrew Petrelis was a drug courier. Took weed from Perth to Eastern states via plane, returned with class A such as speed, coke, heroin. Something like that. He allegedly worked for John Kizon.

He got busted. He turned witness against his colleagues. The problem I have with this:

If you play the game, you take the risk. If you take the risk and get caught you have to take the rap. You can't just go and save yourself but grassing everyone else up. That's just not cricket. it's not cricket in the school yard, business world, or criminal world. I suspect you can't detach yourself from the criminal element. Social etiquette is still social etiquette.

Furthermore, and more importantly, he snitched and the drug crew he worked for wanted to silence him. This is illegal but this is how the criminal world works.




The police are obligated to protect a person in the witness protection program. Only a small amount of people should be able to access that data. My understanding is that pretty much any cop could access it with their password. Time and user stamped and all but it's a bit late if the snitch gets popped.


The people who killed Petrelis: wrong and I would prefer they get busted
Petrelis: No sympathy. He engaged in criminal enterprise and broke the rules. He has paid for it with his life. Too bad. Them's the rules.
The Police: disgraceful. How can you trust these people?


So there is no double standard or contradiction because it's not as simple as you see it. You should try to broaden your horizons.

OK so it is ok for the criminals (the police officer who provided the information is part of this group) to illegally exploit the system and kill the informant, but it is disgraceful for the police for allowing this information to go out. What part of this is not a contradiction? You are blaming the police for what the criminals did.

 

[vealesy]

OK so it is ok for the criminals (the police officer who provided the information is part of this group) to illegally exploit the system and kill the informant, but it is disgraceful for the police for allowing this information to go out. What part of this is not a contradiction? You are blaming the police for what the criminals did.

He didnt say it was ok.

He said it was a consequence of breaking the criminal code.

Its not a crime to stfu. Unless you are a construction worker.

 

[bunsen burner]

LOL I am far from a cop. As for the highest paid members, the chief commissioner is on over 400k. And I think you'll find there are more people with degrees joining the police force because they need the degrees to facilitate a smoother transfer into other areas of the force or even require it to function in that part of the force. In Victoria they are now paying more to those who have degrees and depending on what it is considerably more to lure them from the private sector.

Sure, but these people aren't cops. They are Govt workers. The police force has IT departments, finance departments etc that have lots of employees who have degrees. These people aren't cops and aren't part of the "police force".

As for your comments on what a cop faces, I am pretty sure other professions such as highly paid doctors and lawyers accountants etc face the same problems.

I wouldn't think so. An accountant isn't at risk of an armed bandit shooting them to death. The most risk an accountant would face is being bored to death.

 

[bunsen burner]

OK so it is ok for the criminals (the police officer who provided the information is part of this group) to illegally exploit the system and kill the informant,

You're making it hard for me not heckle you for being a complete dumb arse. I clearly said it's not. 6th line from the bottom.

Given your distinct lack of basic comprehension skills I just wonder why you think you have the mental capacity to argue with some random on the internet? All the way through you have got it wrong over and over again. You can't even interpret the QLD authority to enter laws.

but it is disgraceful for the police for allowing this information to go out.

F*** yeah. You don't think so?

The police are not meant to be a criminal organisation. They are meant to serve and protect. Here the have promised a person (albeit a scumbag) safe relocation for testifying and then they facilitate him being murdered. Incompetent, abuse of power, just an out and out ****ing disgrace.

What part of this is not a contradiction? You are blaming the police for what the criminals did.

???? What part of the police telling the criminals where he was living do you not understand?

It's clearly evident you are thick. Let me spell it out:

* Police offer witness a place on witness protection program in exchange for evidence
* They take him from WA and hide him in Qld
* A police officer not involved in the case, but has a relationship with the drug king pin the witness is testifying against, accessed the system via password to the area that has the adress of where the witness is staying
* A few days later the witness is found dead

I'm clearly blaming the police and the criminals. Pretty simple. Get it? Spacca.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

For me I totally blame the training one of my best mates became a cop because he wanted to help people, when he came back fresh out of goulburn it was like he was brain washed.

Threatened to defect neighbours cars, our cars, thought he was tough shit refused to play poker, called the locals on a mate of ours who dealt a little bit of pot. If he didn't get a local posting and so had his mates and family around to fix that bullshit and snap him out of it, I'm sure he'd be a brain dead flatfoot today.

 

[JUBJUB]

JubJub

Yes, I will get involved in this sniping as well. I'm a total ****ing blouse so I might do some of this "tell someone to calm down to wind them up trick".

Attention JubJub: I'm not mad, but you're a ****ing pussy. Come at me you fairy.

I wasn't winding you up.You just need to relax and stop insulting people just because they disagree with you.
Maybe it's that time of the month for you and that's why you're being so bitchy at the moment.

 

[dymot]

Sure, but these people aren't cops. They are Govt workers. The police force has IT departments, finance departments etc that have lots of employees who have degrees. These people aren't cops and aren't part of the "police force".

I wouldn't think so. An accountant isn't at risk of an armed bandit shooting them to death. The most risk an accountant would face is being bored to death.

Yes they are. I know many lawyers or qualified graduates with Law degrees being hunted or being asked by the force to join to become prosecutors for example. The force and government (victoria) has finally realised that payinmg appropriately qualified people to undertake police work an appropriate and competitive salary when compared with the private sector provides great benefits in terms of work productivity and reduces other costs such as paying an external party to do the same work. In your case where you stated accountants, the benefit of having one is that in the fraud unit for example they can uncover tricks relating to money laundering etc very quickly and thus allowing matters to move forward more quickly. Also people with expert knowledge in areas such Aboriginal Studies to help and provide guidance on dealing with such persons. FFS you should see how many students have taken legal studies Bachelor programs with the intention of joining the police. Did one commercial law unit which overlapped with this course as it was a core unit for them and apart from me and the other guy who were taking it as an elective 8/12 who were doing the Legal course were wanting to join the police after completing. The prospects of gaining promotion or sidestepping into higher paid and more lucrative areas increases with a degree. Police I know have said that 90-95% of people around the 30-35 mark who are either Acting sargents or in elite skills areas such as prosecutions or specialiost departments have tertiary backing. These people rarely stay on the front line for long and are shipped off to other departments after they have done their time at the bottom like everyone does in their field when starting out.

 

[dymot]

You're making it hard for me not heckle you for being a complete dumb arse. I clearly said it's not. 6th line from the bottom.

Given your distinct lack of basic comprehension skills I just wonder why you think you have the mental capacity to argue with some random on the internet? All the way through you have got it wrong over and over again. You can't even interpret the QLD authority to enter laws.


F*** yeah. You don't think so?

The police are not meant to be a criminal organisation. They are meant to serve and protect. Here the have promised a person (albeit a scumbag) safe relocation for testifying and then they facilitate him being murdered. Incompetent, abuse of power, just an out and out ****ing disgrace.

???? What part of the police telling the criminals where he was living do you not understand?

It's clearly evident you are thick. Let me spell it out:

* Police offer witness a place on witness protection program in exchange for evidence
* They take him from WA and hide him in Qld
* A police officer not involved in the case, but has a relationship with the drug king pin the witness is testifying against, accessed the system via password to the area that has the adress of where the witness is staying
* A few days later the witness is found dead

I'm clearly blaming the police and the criminals. Pretty simple. Get it? Spacca.

So I guess then by your logic, the US government was responsible for allowing September 11 to happen? That's effectively what you are saying. Despite the police not being able to control what people do while in the force, they suddenly become competent if they had engaged super dooper screening processes and restricted the information to a handful of people? This is overlooking the fact that despite how much time an organisation spends implementing supposedly infallible systems to prevent such information being leaked, it is not actually possible for the police to be responsible for a rogue member gobbing off about such secure information. Therefore the logic by which you present to say you can equally blame the inept operations of the police is flawed and in no way can a rational person say they are equally responsible. The only party responsible is the rogue officer and the criminal organisations connected to the rogue cop who used the information to their advantage. If you looked back at the same situation in the US with the rogue soldier, it was concede by nearly everyone that even if they enhanced their screening processes on who enters the army that it would not definitely stop such an event from happening again.

 

[vealesy]

The IT security was flawed.

Any cop and his dog had access to witness locations.

Therefore its not incompetence, but lack of internal security.

You really do grab hold of one word and then base your whole argument on it.

 

[dymot]

The IT security was flawed.

Any cop and his dog had access to witness locations.

Therefore its not incompetence, but lack of internal security.

You really do grab hold of one word and then base your whole argument on it.

Yet you still cannot refute the rest of my post. Tell me even if the it system was flawless would it have prevented such information from getting out completely? As for the incompetence bit I am merely referring to what Bunsen Burner described it as.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

The IT security was flawed.

Any cop and his dog had access to witness locations.

Therefore its not incompetence, but lack of internal security.

You really do grab hold of one word and then base your whole argument on it.

All the "experts" on the Petrelis incident should really shut up and stop looking silly, because what actually happened was nothing at all like that.

 

[dymot]

All the "experts" on the Petrelis incident should really shut up and stop looking silly, because what actually happened was nothing at all like that.

I'm just responding to what has been said about it by Bunsen. After reading it, it seems different to what he has said. Can you shed light on it for someone who was too young to remember when it happened please?

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

The IT security was flawed.

Any cop and his dog had access to witness locations.

Therefore its not incompetence, but lack of internal security.

You really do grab hold of one word and then base your whole argument on it.

Do you think this stuff isn't by design?

 

[dymot]

Do you think this stuff isn't by design?

Do you have proof of this or is it just your opinion?

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Do you have proof of this or is it just your opinion?

Don't talk to me.

Ever.

 

[Matera92]

How do those who disagree with how the force is being run currently think the situation can be changed?

Funding/training/selection criteria?

 

[dymot]

Don't talk to me.

Ever.

I think this says all I needed to know.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

How do those who disagree with how the force is being run currently think the situation can be changed?

Funding/training/selection criteria?

1) Laws that better represent the actual will of the people. This alone would cut down on an enormous amount of tension.
2) Dismissal of police via local CIR.
3) The dismantling of the PR arm of the police force. There's far too much spin. Their actions and conduct should speak for themselves.
4) An actual independent body to investigate police corruption and misconduct.
5) Banning police from post career involvement with the media.

That's a good start.

 

[bunsen burner]

Yes they are. I know many lawyers or qualified graduates with Law degrees being hunted or being asked by the force to join to become prosecutors for example. The force and government (victoria) has finally realised that payinmg appropriately qualified people to undertake police work an appropriate and competitive salary when compared with the private sector provides great benefits in terms of work productivity and reduces other costs such as paying an external party to do the same work. In your case where you stated accountants, the benefit of having one is that in the fraud unit for example they can uncover tricks relating to money laundering etc very quickly and thus allowing matters to move forward more quickly. Also people with expert knowledge in areas such Aboriginal Studies to help and provide guidance on dealing with such persons. FFS you should see how many students have taken legal studies Bachelor programs with the intention of joining the police. Did one commercial law unit which overlapped with this course as it was a core unit for them and apart from me and the other guy who were taking it as an elective 8/12 who were doing the Legal course were wanting to join the police after completing. The prospects of gaining promotion or sidestepping into higher paid and more lucrative areas increases with a degree. Police I know have said that 90-95% of people around the 30-35 mark who are either Acting sargents or in elite skills areas such as prosecutions or specialiost departments have tertiary backing. These people rarely stay on the front line for long and are shipped off to other departments after they have done their time at the bottom like everyone does in their field when starting out.

Must be some new school stuff. All the professional people I deal with at NSW Police are not cops and when you look at their CVs they will have banks, other corporates, and other Govt departments as previous employers. Maybe these days they are building their own professional people from the ground up? I have to say it doesn't make sense to have a guy who wants a career as a solutions architect to go out on the beat for a few years.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

I think this says all I needed to know.

I don't give a flying **** about what you think.

 

[dymot]

Must be some new school stuff. All the professional people I deal with at NSW Police are not cops and when you look at their CVs they will have banks, other corporates, and other Govt departments as previous employers. Maybe these days they are building their own professional people from the ground up? I have to say it doesn't make sense to have a guy who wants a career as a solutions architect to go out on the beat for a few years.

The latest Vic recruitment campaign/strategy is focused on it. The time spent on the beat by these individuals is nominal much like when you started out a shitkicker in what ever industry you were in before getting experience.