Corona virus, Port and the AFL.

[Holden Hillbilly]

 

[Burningleviathan]

Yeah, and how many have died of Corona virus that were listed only as pneumonia because they have been unable or unwilling to test for it? Why do you believe the data is skewed only one way?

As far as the old people go, then yes they would have lived if not for getting the Corona virus. Whether that would have been one week, one month, one year is unknowable. The point is we'll never know because they are now dead because the got sick with this virus.

 

[Magus]

Yeah, and how many have died of Corona virus that were listed only as pneumonia because they have been unable or unwilling to test for it? Why do you believe the data is skewed only one way?

As far as the old people go, then yes they would have lived if not for getting the Corona virus. Whether that would have been one week, one month, one year is unknowable. The point is we'll never know because they are now dead because the got sick with this virus.

This. And it's not as if everyone that died was already terminally ill. Pre-existing conditions could be as simple as diabetes or high blood pressure. When you're over 60 that includes a shitload of people.

 

[raman]

Yeah, and how many have died of Corona virus that were listed only as pneumonia because they have been unable or unwilling to test for it? Why do you believe the data is skewed only one way?

To cut to the chase...

It's because they need to believe that governments and corporations all over the world are hitting an abrupt pause on their economies and revenues because CNN, MSNBC and elitist medical professionals want to make Trump look bad.

Yes, sadly, that's really why.

 

[StrappingTape]

To cut to the chase...

It's because they need to believe that governments and corporations all over the world are hitting an abrupt pause on their economies and revenues because CNN, MSNBC and elitist medical professionals want to make Trump look bad.

Yes, sadly, that's really why.

WTF, this has nothing to do with Trump? It's about us here, in Adelaide\Australia and our day to day living. Right now we are working of models even the government says are rubbish. I'll ask again, with 19 patients in SA hospitalised, what is causing the mass smashing of wards you are telling us you have to help schedule? Are they scheduled because of the government planning to the models or are they being smashed for something else?

 

[raman]

WTF, this has nothing to do with Trump?

OK I'm sure your healthy skepticism is coming from entirely reasonable sources.

It's about us here, in Adelaide\Australia and our day to day living. Right now we are working of models even the government says are rubbish. I'll ask again, with 19 patients in SA hospitalised, what is causing the mass smashing of wards you are telling us you have to help schedule? Are they scheduled because of the government planning to the models or are they being smashed for something else?

I don't know. I don't claim to know. I said before I didn't have the stats, back when I also pointed out that you don't have the stats about how medical facilities have apparently over-prepared for a crisis that isn't happening. All I know is that I'm pouring more nurses into facilities which are full of patients and in some cases setting up military tents outside to expand their wards and clinics. Perhaps we're entering an uncommonly bad flu season as well. It just comes back to the point that pressure on medical facilities is the whole everlovin' issue.

 

[StrappingTape]

OK I'm sure your healthy skepticism is coming from entirely reasonable sources.



I don't know. I don't claim to know. I said before I didn't have the stats, back when I also pointed out that you don't have the stats about how medical facilities have apparently over-prepared for a crisis that isn't happening. All I know is that I'm pouring more nurses into facilities which are full of patients and in some cases setting up military tents outside to expand their wards and clinics. Perhaps we're entering an uncommonly bad flu season as well. It just comes back to the point that pressure on medical facilities is the whole everlovin' issue.

You say I don't have the stats about how medical facilities have apparently over prepared for this as you then go on to talk about setting up military tents outside and expanding wards/reopening old hospitals based on the models projecting we were going to get smashed. I'm sure they are full of the 19 people hospitalised so far. You literally described my point whilst missing it or you gonna claim that was a troll to?

Again, none of us are saying that it's not real, none of us are saying it's not a crisis but we are saying to give us some actual projections based off actual data. Give us some the public comparative data from here and around the world so we can see what exactly is the challenge we have here. By continuing to act on a model which the feds say is pointless and building out based off that with the reality of small case rises per day and little hospitalisations occurring you'll lose the public. Without that data, all that's going to happen, as has been said before is more people are going to go on Easter holidays, more are going to do all the unhelpful things because they'll tune out because they'll stop taking it seriously anymore. There's also again the valid argument of getting people back into work and avoiding a economic depression with all the attached suicide rates and all other nasties that humans tend to do during such things, it will just compound it all into a massive cluster*.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

When it comes to peoples lives and medicos careers its infinitely better to overprepare and be overcautious than to underprepare and be not cautious enough.

 

[raman]

You say I don't have the stats about how medical facilities have apparently over prepared for this as you then go on to talk about setting up military tents outside and expanding wards/reopening old hospitals based on the models projecting we were going to get smashed. I'm sure they are full of the 19 people hospitalised so far. You literally described my point whilst missing it or you gonna claim that was a troll to?

I never claimed to be trolling, or that anyone was reopening old hospitals. Not everyone can count comprehension as a strong point, but seriously, are you ok?

Again, none of us are saying that it's not real, none of us are saying it's not a crisis but we are saying to give us some actual projections based off actual data.

And then you're saying you don't like the data.

 

[Canoogs]

View attachment 853989

Worldometers is only as good as the data that goes into it, and in this instance the data that shows a sharp downward dip in active cases is s**t. The federal Health department started presenting recovered cases only 2 days ago which massively increased the number they showed as most states hadn't been reporting this.

 

[Vagabond0]

This thread has taken a twist. Last night it was how bad Sweden got it wrong by not enforcing isolation restrictions and tonight...

I think it's fair that people should be able to question the authorities and how they should or shouldn't have to isolate... However to prove their genuine concern for the greater good they should probably ask to volunteer in a covid dedicated ward to start with, just to prove their point and earn their exception status.

Me, I've obviously got no idea, but do have first hand stories from people actually living in Milan which was enough to put the fear of the virus in me. The list of people they personally know through their work, social and kids school networks that have past away is insane. Youngest was the sister of their daughters teacher at school, 30 years old no previous known health issues.

I've never seen fear in peoples face like last Sunday. This same couple didn't have a care or fear in the world 4 weeks ago.

I just don't get what we have to gain to risk it, I'm happy to sit around at home for a few months collecting my job seeker payment as rewards for not standing to close to someone

 

[Marat]

Without calling it one way or the other, it is reasonable to examine the mortality rate and the demographics of those dying and ask at what point is the cure worse than the poison. It is also worth comparing our approach here to that taken to other forms of preventable death. For example, we have about 20000 obacco related deaths per year and tobacco related illnesses are a huge burden on our health system. Are we lockiing up smokers or spending hundreds of billions of dollars to eradicate this problem? A broader example, maybe 1.5 million people die on the worlds roads every year yet no government is advocating doing away with motorised transport to return to the horse and.cart. Perspective is always valuable.

 

[Magus]

Italy has a huge aging population and yes I am saying a lot of the people that are getting it very much were dying anyway but unfortunately died a bit faster but it may not have made any difference at all.

Again, none of us are saying that it's not real, none of us are saying it's not a crisis

 

[sobrave]

Well this thread went down the toilet

 

[GremioPower]

One of my sisters lived in Sweden for 13 years before her Swedish husband passed away in early 2007. She moved back to Oz at end of 2007 and took several years getting used to living in Oz again and said its not as advanced a society in Oz re a digital society and everything being linked up and easy to process, especially government stuff.

Eventually she changed and got used to the Oz way of doing things again. 2 weeks ago she spoke to a Swedish friend here in Adelaide, who bagged what was going on back there and then she rang a friend and she confirmed that people aren't really doing a lot of lockdown stuff in Stockholm. She also found out that a lot of school kids and their parents went to Italy for holidays in February. She was angry and upset by what she heard. On the weekend she received a call from a friend that a mutual friend had died to Covid-19 and she was really upset.

Australia population 25m 5,795 cases 2,432 recovered 41 deaths
Sweden population 10.5m 7,206 cases 205 recovered 477 deaths

Not bad numbers for Sweden, considering that they haven't shut anything down.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Not bad numbers for Sweden, considering that they haven't shut anything down.

Let's revisit the numbers in 30 days time. That might be in Part III of this thread.

 

[GremioPower]

One of my biggest beefs with Trump is his efforts to kill off Obamacare. Why wouldn't you want to improve access to the health care system, especially for poorer Americans. The US is an exception to the rule when it comes to western countries. Most run universal access schemes for health.

The US has the highest per capita costs for healthcare in the world but ranks poorly on the quality of its healthcare system. Obamacare is exactly what the US needs during this health crisis.

Nothing wrong in wanting to improve healthcare access to people. Obamacare was simply the wrong way of doing it. There are better options.

I was living there when it happened. Because of Obamacare, my plan more than doubled its cost and got worse than the one we had: lost coverage that we needed, and got a bunch that were irrelevant to us. It wasn't just me. I had to get an even worse plan, paying a bit more than I used to pay.

But, hey, I was covered, right?

 

[GremioPower]

Let's revisit the numbers in 30 days time. That might be in Part III of this thread.

I think we will only be able to fully measure it when everything is over, but we certainly need to keep revising the numbers.

 

[Burningleviathan]

Without calling it one way or the other, it is reasonable to examine the mortality rate and the demographics of those dying and ask at what point is the cure worse than the poison. It is also worth comparing our approach here to that taken to other forms of preventable death. For example, we have about 20000 obacco related deaths per year and tobacco related illnesses are a huge burden on our health system. Are we lockiing up smokers or spending hundreds of billions of dollars to eradicate this problem? A broader example, maybe 1.5 million people die on the worlds roads every year yet no government is advocating doing away with motorised transport to return to the horse and.cart. Perspective is always valuable.

We isolate smokers. We have banned from smoking indoors, in cars and restrict them to areas away from people to engage in their habit. We also promote social distancing against smokers by promoting the dangers of second hand smoke. They can also be fined for breaking these rules. There is also the fact it is an addiction which is far different from a virus. You cannot catch someone elses lung cancer by spending 30 minutes talking to them. We promote prevention.

Once again apples and oranges. We also advocate being three seconds behind the nearest car, driving at a safe speed and not being intoxicated. Once again we promote prevention.

As far the poison worse than the cure? Well go back and look at last nights comments about Sweden. They also thought it was too much. How many more dead now? Are we to sacrifice those over 60 to an early grace just because staying inside for a couple of months is just too damn hard?
Once again this is about prevention.

 

[Pappagallo]

Not bad numbers for Sweden, considering that they haven't shut anything down.

Er they’re not good either, today alone they jumped up 114 deaths to 591 total.

Norway/Finland/Denmark combined currently sitting at 313 total and rising at a much slower rate. Clearly the Swedish solution isn’t working and I don’t think it’ll be long before they pull up stumps on it.

 

[HinkleysHeroes]

This thread was good but now full of idiots. Will return to the forum next season I guess.

 

[Burningleviathan]

But, hey, I was covered, right?

Ues. You and an estimated 20 million more people who were otherwise without coverage.

Sure universal health care would be better but that gets you called a radical socialist over there.

If Trump was try to move to a better system then you could make an argument but considering zero movement towards one, you can't really say dismantling the one system that allows 20 million people to be on havehealth care is a great idea.

 

[GremioPower]

Er they’re not good either, today alone they jumped up 114 deaths to 591 total.

Norway/Finland/Denmark combined currently sitting at 313 total and rising at a much slower rate. Clearly the Swedish solution isn’t working and I don’t think it’ll be long before they pull up stumps on it.

They probably will, but for a country that wasn't wide shut, Sweden is not doing bad at all at the moment. They've managed so far to keep their society moving, so there's an upside to it as well. That's why one needs to see this when it is all said and done.

Every decision has its ups and downs. The goal is to get through this the best way possible. It may be that the best result is achieved by keeping changing policy: close, open, close, open... I don't know.

Still, it is interesting that different decisions have been made with mixed results. Societies aren't the same. There are an infinite number of distinct circumstances. It should be natural that the response to this problem would differ from place to place and from time to time.

Moreover, that which could be considered a bad outcome for some, it may be good for others. We cannot measure everybody with the same stick.

 

[GremioPower]

Ues. You and an estimated 20 million more people who were otherwise without coverage.

Sure universal health care would be better but that gets you called a radical socialist over there.

If Trump was try to move to a better system then you could make an argument but considering zero movement towards one, you can't really say dismantling the one system that allows 20 million people to be on havehealth care is a great idea.

I am completely against universal healthcare. For start, it is an economic impossibility. The best system would necessarily need to combine public and private healthcare.

Basic universal healthcare, in a sense that it covers those that cannot afford not even that, it is possible and advisable. Beyond that, it would be better to subsidize coverage for them through insurance plans. Obamacare was simply a bad attempt to do that.

Unfortunately, there are things that a society cannot sustain. High-cost treatments are one of those. Budget has its limits, and even though every single person matters, choices must be made. Politically, the money would probably be better spend elsewhere rather than on me (even if my own life were dependent on it).

----
P.S.: There is no move because, while everybody agrees that Obamacare should be replaced, no one agrees on what its replacement should be. Thus, the current law stays.

 

[raman]

I am completely against universal healthcare. For start, it is an economic impossibility. The best system would necessarily need to combine public and private healthcare.

Also known as universal healthcare.