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fred cook

Premiership Player
Jan 14, 2005
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nnn
I gather the rule of no spitting next year at the footy might not be the case :)



 

Freshwater

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Oct 30, 2014
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Children complain when mummy doesn't let them play in traffic, but it's for their own good. They are unhappy that mummy tells them not to do fun things, but they are happy that mummy takes care of them
Adults aren’t children. And Dan doesn’t know more or is more moral than Victorian citizens. He isn’t our mother or father. We voted for a premier not a parent or even a ruler. His conduct will never be forgotten. Every death and all cost go back to him and his government. “For you own good” is as patronising as you could be. And not even Andrews would use such words.
 

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2015
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Adults aren’t children. And Dan doesn’t know more or is more moral than Victorian citizens. He isn’t our mother or father. We voted for a premier not a parent or even a ruler. His conduct will never be forgotten. Every death and all cost go back to him and his government. “For you own good” is as patronising as you could be. And not even Andrews would use such words.
Andrews doesn’t run Aged Care. Both governments are guilty of dereliction of duty.
 

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VogonProsthetnic

Premiership Player
Apr 26, 2010
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Adults aren’t children. And Dan doesn’t know more or is more moral than Victorian citizens. He isn’t our mother or father. We voted for a premier not a parent or even a ruler. His conduct will never be forgotten. Every death and all cost go back to him and his government. “For you own good” is as patronising as you could be. And not even Andrews would use such words.

You have alternate model of government in mind?
 

Freshwater

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Oct 30, 2014
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You have alternate model of government in mind?
Yeah I do. One that the leader goes to the legislative house, where all the representatives from the region gather to discuss any and every law that needs passing. Every one of those laws are discussed by all representatives if they wish, before agreeing or disagreeing.The majority gets that particular law through. All minority rights and liberties are unalienable and can’t be impeded upon, because they are self-evident true. Unfortunately we used to have this, it was called democracy but sadly it doesn’t seem to exist any more.
 

Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
16,628
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Adults aren’t children. And Dan doesn’t know more or is more moral than Victorian citizens. He isn’t our mother or father. We voted for a premier not a parent or even a ruler. His conduct will never be forgotten. Every death and all cost go back to him and his government. “For you own good” is as patronising as you could be. And not even Andrews would use such words.

Lol you can tell the people that don’t have kids

Never in my life have I heard a child complain because they can’t play on the freeway in traffic.
 

Virgin Dog

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 29, 2017
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I think it would more likely 30% or less if you asked the question to you approve of his handling of hotel quarantine?
That question has been asked time and time again and is no longer relevant in this context - the question is whether Dan is doing his job now, particularly regarding the lockdown
 

Virgin Dog

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 29, 2017
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Adults aren’t children. And Dan doesn’t know more or is more moral than Victorian citizens. He isn’t our mother or father. We voted for a premier not a parent or even a ruler. His conduct will never be forgotten. Every death and all cost go back to him and his government. “For you own good” is as patronising as you could be. And not even Andrews would use such words.
Lockdown is for your own good, is it not?

Adults as a collective act no better than children. Individuals are intelligent, groups of people are stupid. A lockdown is necessary for the good of the people
 

Virgin Dog

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 29, 2017
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The opposite of the marginal electorate is the "safe" seat. Here in Canberra where we have 3 House of Reps seats it seldom swings away from Labor (and I imagine it's the same throughout the western suburbs of Melbourne).

In consequence we get ignored by BOTH major parties. One ignores us because they know it's not worth their trouble and the other because they know the seat is already "in the bag" and they don't have to do anything extra to get over the line. I expect those who live in safe National or Liberal seats would be in a similar situation.

There's a lot to be said for living in a marginal electorate and never being taken for granted by the pollies.
Had this exact experience when I lived in regional WA. People voted Nationals every year in my electorate, and as a result the Libs and Labor couldn't have given the slightest fu** about the area. Meant a chronic lack of funding and failure to address social issues because it wasn't worth the effort
 

Virgin Dog

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Oct 29, 2017
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Lol you can tell the people that don’t have kids

Never in my life have I heard a child complain because they can’t play on the freeway in traffic.
When did anyone mention a freeway? Are you saying you've never seen a child want to play in their cul-de-sac but get told no?
 

Dogs_R_Us

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May 3, 2001
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Yeah I do. One that the leader goes to the legislative house, where all the representatives from the region gather to discuss any and every law that needs passing. Every one of those laws are discussed by all representatives if they wish, before agreeing or disagreeing.The majority gets that particular law through. All minority rights and liberties are unalienable and can’t be impeded upon, because they are self-evident true. Unfortunately we used to have this, it was called democracy but sadly it doesn’t seem to exist any more.
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” W. Churchill
 

dogwatch

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Had this exact experience when I lived in regional WA. People voted Nationals every year in my electorate, and as a result the Libs and Labor couldn't have given the slightest fu** about the area. Meant a chronic lack of funding and failure to address social issues because it wasn't worth the effort
Meanwhile sports rorts and other forms of pork barrelling happen in the marginals or winnables.

I agree with Freshwater that our democracy is being undermined. Not particularly along party lines (all major parties are at fault) but by eroding the pillars that maintain a democracy:
  • Lack of transparency
  • Excessive and cynical use of executive powers
  • Abandonment of the notion of ministerial accountability
  • No effective independent watchdog over corruption in public office (with its own investigative powers)
  • Shutting down and harrassment of any voices that threaten to uncover a government's dirty secrets
  • Excessive surveillance and denial of the right to a fair trial in an open court
  • Abuse of draconian laws and powers against our own citizens (eg those enacted supposedly to counter terrorism after 911)
  • No Charter of Human Rights
  • Private funding of political parties by business and unions
  • Post-retirement sinecures to those ministers who have been helpful and compliant when in office (eg directorships or special "consultancies")
  • Emasculation of an independent Public Service (with "frank and fearless advice") and replacing it with unaccountable faceless ministerial staffers
  • And so on...
Our democracy used to be one of the better ones in the world but it's diminishing before our very eyes. And we're doing bugger all to stop it happening.

Just as well we have our daily soma (like footy, Farmer Wants a Wife or "Coronavirus TV shows to binge") to help us get through.
 

King Harold

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Apr 23, 2013
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Adults aren’t children. And Dan doesn’t know more or is more moral than Victorian citizens. He isn’t our mother or father. We voted for a premier not a parent or even a ruler. His conduct will never be forgotten. Every death and all cost go back to him and his government. “For you own good” is as patronising as you could be. And not even Andrews would use such words.
“ Every death and all cost go back to him “
you will have your chance to vent your spleen at the ballot box , but that statement is irrational.
you my friend need a Bex and a lay down.
 

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VogonProsthetnic

Premiership Player
Apr 26, 2010
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Yeah I do. One that the leader goes to the legislative house, where all the representatives from the region gather to discuss any and every law that needs passing. Every one of those laws are discussed by all representatives if they wish, before agreeing or disagreeing.The majority gets that particular law through. All minority rights and liberties are unalienable and can’t be impeded upon, because they are self-evident true. Unfortunately we used to have this, it was called democracy but sadly it doesn’t seem to exist any more.
Sounds like how Britain got Brexit.

We elect our leaders to govern not indulge in intellectual talkfests.

You will get your chance to elect Michael O’Brien in November 2022.
 

ScragCity

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
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Meanwhile sports rorts and other forms of pork barrelling happen in the marginals or winnables.

I agree with Freshwater that our democracy is being undermined. Not particularly along party lines (all major parties are at fault) but by eroding the pillars that maintain a democracy:
  • Lack of transparency
  • Excessive and cynical use of executive powers
  • Abandonment of the notion of ministerial accountability
  • No effective independent watchdog over corruption in public office (with its own investigative powers)
  • Shutting down and harrassment of any voices that threaten to uncover a government's dirty secrets
  • Excessive surveillance and denial of the right to a fair trial in an open court
  • Abuse of draconian laws and powers against our own citizens (eg those enacted supposedly to counter terrorism after 911)
  • No Charter of Human Rights
  • Private funding of political parties by business and unions
  • Post-retirement sinecures to those ministers who have been helpful and compliant when in office (eg directorships or special "consultancies")
  • Emasculation of an independent Public Service (with "frank and fearless advice") and replacing it with unaccountable faceless ministerial staffers
  • And so on...
Our democracy used to be one of the better ones in the world but it's diminishing before our very eyes. And we're doing bugger all to stop it happening.

Just as well we have our daily soma (like footy, Farmer Wants a Wife or "Coronavirus TV shows to binge") to help us get through.
This is the most depressing thing I've read all week. Pass me the soma please.

What do you mean about denial of a fair trial in an open court?
 

dogwatch

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This is the most depressing thing I've read all week. Pass me the soma please.

What do you mean about denial of a fair trial in an open court?
Have you read anything about witness J?


Nobody is saying that this chap didn't do anything wrong but given the extent of efforts to suppress the episode it's hard to know. What is disturbing is that the public had no way of knowing he'd been charged, tried, convicted, sentenced and imprisoned. It came to light almost by accident. Even the ACT Attorney General didn't know what he was in the ACT 's own gaol for.

And an inquiry into all that seems to have fallen by the wayside.


For more depressing revelations try reading Bernard Collaery's "Oil Under Troubled Water" about Australia's egregious treatment of Timor-Leste andthe follow-up harrassment of Collaery and his legal practice for siding with the little guy.
 

wayniac

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Sep 28, 2009
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And the attack on our right to vote for who we want......

 

dogwatch

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As you might have guessed, Scrag, for me one of the most worrying trends is the suppression of information that should be available to the public. This is one of the most important foundations of an open democratic society. It's how we like to differentiate ourselves from China or Russia or North Korea. However the reality of it may be somewhat different to what we had imagined.

It's a complex issue, of course, as the Israel Folau case illustrated, but that was more about opinions and beliefs (right to make public comment) than matters of fact and peer-reviewed research. Even with matters of fact I do acknowledge there can and should be occasional constraints due to "national interest". My worry is that those who determine "national interest" cannot be trusted to differentiate fairly between national interest and their own interest. It's almost like a law of nature that where there is a chink in the laws, democratic conventions or the constitution it will eventually be exploited by unscrupulous people.

And here is another example of a terribly concerning area of information suppression: We like to think that - apart from a few raving loonies in government and the Murdoch press - we generally trust and follow "the science". But what if we're not allowed to hear what science has uncovered?


Is this the open democracy we thought we lived in?

He who pays the piper calls the tune.
 
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LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2015
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37 new cases yesterday and 41 today.

IF anyone can link me O’Briens plan, I would be appreciative. I have seen him call for changing to stage 3 but I was hoping there was more to it than this.
 

dogwatch

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37 new cases yesterday and 41 today.

IF anyone can link me O’Briens plan, I would be appreciative. I have seen him call for changing to stage 3 but I was hoping there was more to it than this.
Yes it'd be interesting to see if it's based on health advice or just a desire to get business up and running. Naturally everybody would like business up and running and more people in employment so it's a natural thing to want, but is there any acknowledgement of the greater difficulty the economy would be in if there was a serious rebound or a third wave? What contingency measures does he propose for that?

Also for anybody who thinks Andrews is fudging things to try to extend Stage 4 (or whatever the accusations and criticisms are): can you tell me what his motivation is? Why would he want Victoria to stay in Stage 4 any longer than necessary if not to save lives and give the economy the best chance of a steady and predictable climb out of its current condition without the upset of repeated lockdowns? It surely can't be to win votes because he seems to be under massive political pressure and he seems to be at risk of losing a lot of long term supporters.

It's a genuine question. I'm not getting what motives might be ascribed to him for his supposed pigheadedness but perhaps I've missed some of the Vic-based commentary.
 

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2015
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Yes it'd be interesting to see if it's based on health advice or just a desire to get business up and running. Naturally everybody would like business up and running and more people in employment so it's a natural thing to want, but is there any acknowledgement of the greater difficulty the economy would be in if there was a serious rebound or a third wave? What contingency measures does he propose for that?

Also for anybody who thinks Andrews is fudging things to try to extend Stage 4 (or whatever the accusations and criticisms are): can you tell me what his motivation is? Why would he want Victoria to stay in Stage 4 any longer than necessary if not to save lives and give the economy the best chance of a steady and predictable climb out of its current condition without the upset of repeated lockdowns? It surely can't be to win votes because he seems to be under massive political pressure and he seems to be at risk of losing a lot of long term supporters.

It's a genuine question. I'm not getting what motives might be ascribed to him for his supposed pigheadedness but perhaps I've missed some of the Vic-based commentary.
Haven’t missed anything that I am aware of. It’s why I asked about a link to O’Brien’s plan. I can’t find it anywhere....
 

Anja_Nees

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 14, 2001
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For those interested in the contact tracing debacle, here’s a pretty interesting article picking it apart.


Coupled with the hotel quarantine issue, one would think that if Dan is to continue his government is going to need a philosophical change.

To reject the Salesforce system offered early on, only to backflip months later when the existing system has spectacularly imploded and the state is in lockdown is embarrassing to say the least.
 

BRWB

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 7, 2012
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For those interested in the contact tracing debacle, here’s a pretty interesting article picking it apart.


Coupled with the hotel quarantine issue, one would think that if Dan is to continue his government is going to need a philosophical change.

To reject the Salesforce system offered early on, only to backflip months later when the existing system has spectacularly imploded and the state is in lockdown is embarrassing to say the least.
Unbelievable rejection of Salesforce. Vic Pol use Saleforce on minor crimes and it was quickly adapted to take every breach report in Vic. It was done quickly and efficiently.

But yet again DHHS know better and fu** things up
 

Anja_Nees

Norm Smith Medallist
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Unbelievable rejection of Salesforce. Vic Pol use Saleforce on minor crimes and it was quickly adapted to take every breach report in Vic. It was fine quickly and efficiently.

But yet again DHHS know better and fu** things up
On both hotel quarantine and contact tracing they’ve rejected offers of assistance and gone their own way, then made an absolute meal of it.

I can understand people wanting to stay the course now that we’re already in the muck or being impressed by Andrews fronting up day after day for press briefings etc, but the mental gymnastics I’ve seen some people pull to avoid making (or hearing) any criticism of his government astonishes me.
 

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2015
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Unbelievable rejection of Salesforce. Vic Pol use Saleforce on minor crimes and it was quickly adapted to take every breach report in Vic. It was done quickly and efficiently.

But yet again DHHS know better and fu** things up
Salesforce is a crappy system IF you start from scratch. The fact they were offered assistance to implement it from the police who know how to use it and ignored them is baffling.

Why not take assistance when offered it?
 

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