Coronavirus/COVID-19

Remove this Banner Ad

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2015
6,293
6,899
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I'm not an expert on administrative law but I'll give you my take:

I don't think the purpose of this case is to make a statement. It's a way to challenge the legitimacy of the curfew through the judiciary.

The state of emergency certainly doesn't mean the rule book goes out the window. What it does is grants the government certain emergency powers. The power in question here is provided in section 200 (1)(a), the power to,"restrict the movement of any person or group of persons within the emergency area." Prima facie the curfew seems to be a perfectly reasonable use of this power. There is a provision in this section which states that use of these powers must be authorised by the CHO.

Where it gets tricky is that there are a bunch of provisions in this Act about evidence-based decision making, not making arbitrary decisions and using the least restrictive measures practicable. The curfew in particular seems like it can be challenged along those lines. My understanding is that Sutton admitted publicly that he did not recommend the curfew. Unless the government can show that it had some form of evidence to suggest that the curfew was necessary as a public health measure, the courts might determine that it's not legitimate. If the aim of the curfew was only to assist law enforcement then the judges may have to decide whether that's a reasonable measure for protecting the public health.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the plaintiff in this case won't be awarded any damages. I'm struggling to see how a curfew could be the main cause of loss of revenue for a cafe. I imagine they know this and don't really want to sue the government here; they just want to get the curfew thrown out.
Perhaps she is positioning for a run at preselection.... even if she fails, she can run with ‘at least I did something’ line.
 

Freshwater

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2014
2,052
3,690
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Economists, scientists, epidemiologists...

Lets just not believe anyone with a degree because they've obviously got idea.

🤔
Everyone is an ‘expert’ these days. We have experts on both sides of the arguments. People with degrees on both sides of the arguments. Some of them must be wrong. Dan Andrews has degrees, how did he go with quarantine management? And is now lying to the investigation about ADF help. So it seems education doesn’t necessarily make you wise and definitely not necessarily a good honest person.
 

Mantis Toboggan

Club Legend
Mar 24, 2018
1,347
2,599
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I'm not an expert on administrative law but I'll give you my take:

I don't think the purpose of this case is to make a statement. It's a way to challenge the legitimacy of the curfew through the judiciary.

The state of emergency certainly doesn't mean the rule book goes out the window. What it does is grants the government certain emergency powers. The power in question here is provided in section 200 (1)(a), the power to,"restrict the movement of any person or group of persons within the emergency area." Prima facie the curfew seems to be a perfectly reasonable use of this power. There is a provision in this section which states that use of these powers must be authorised by the CHO.

Where it gets tricky is that there are a bunch of provisions in this Act about evidence-based decision making, not making arbitrary decisions and using the least restrictive measures practicable. The curfew in particular seems like it can be challenged along those lines. My understanding is that Sutton admitted publicly that he did not recommend the curfew. Unless the government can show that it had some form of evidence to suggest that the curfew was necessary as a public health measure, the courts might determine that it's not legitimate. If the aim of the curfew was only to assist law enforcement then the judges may have to decide whether that's a reasonable measure for protecting the public health.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the plaintiff in this case won't be awarded any damages. I'm struggling to see how a curfew could be the main cause of loss of revenue for a cafe. I imagine they know this and don't really want to sue the government here; they just want to get the curfew thrown out.
Sorry, I didn’t mean the rule book literally goes out the window. I just meant that a State Of Emergency permits government action that would otherwise be unacceptable.

I didn’t know that these actions had to be recommended by Sutton so thanks for teaching me something.

I guess my point is that we are all accepting unfair decisions at the moment because we know it’s for the greater good. The rules around funerals and the inability to visit loved ones in hospital are completely unfair in normal circumstances...but we accept it because the alternative is so much worse.

I’m just frustrated that people want to challenge the things that impact them directly while ignoring the very valid reasoning behind it.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

LittleG

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 18, 2015
6,293
6,899
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Everyone is an ‘expert’ these days. We have experts on both sides of the arguments. People with degrees on both sides of the arguments. Some of them must be wrong. Dan Andrews has degrees, how did he go with quarantine management? And is now lying to the investigation about ADF help. So it seems education doesn’t necessarily make you wise and definitely not necessarily a good honest person.
Perhaps Andrews didn’t get told by the underlings that there was an ADF offer.

It still boggles my mind that anyone would turn down an offer of free bodies to help to quarantine. Eccles and this Chris guy appear to have made decision thinking they knew better than everyone else.
 

Libba39

Premiership Player
Mar 10, 2008
4,288
4,215
Murrumbeena
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Everyone is an ‘expert’ these days. We have experts on both sides of the arguments. People with degrees on both sides of the arguments. Some of them must be wrong. Dan Andrews has degrees, how did he go with quarantine management? And is now lying to the investigation about ADF help. So it seems education doesn’t necessarily make you wise and definitely not necessarily a good honest person.
I understand your feelings but I don't know if anyone has proven to have lied, or even worked out who was in charge of hotel quarrantine. Have they? You seem pretty sure about that...

What I don't understand is how one person becomes the face of the virus itself, to the point where the ACTUAL VIRUS is not even the biggest enemy.

Finally, you would never in 100 years convince me that the initial outbreak would not have been 5 times worse if the opposition had have been in power. They would have caved to pressure to open up and it would have been an absolute disaster.
 

ScragCity

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
9,724
18,955
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Perhaps Andrews didn’t get told by the underlings that there was an ADF offer.

It still boggles my mind that anyone would turn down an offer of free bodies to help to quarantine. Eccles and this Chris guy appear to have made decision thinking they knew better than everyone else.
There's a case to be made for not bringing in the military unless it's absolutely necessary. If they thought private security was sufficient then it would make sense to turn down the military. Obviously, with hindsight we can see that was a bad decision, but you can understand why they might not want to bring in the military at the first opportunity. The optics when you bring in the military aren't good. People will get paranoid about things like martial law if they see the military in the streets of Melbourne. It also gives the "Dictator Dan" crowd a bit more fuel if they can point to him using the military in domestic operations. I'm not arguing that the correct decision was made; I think he should have let military help out and not worry about the optics—just trying to explain what the thought process might have been.
 
Last edited:

Dogs 13

Premiership Player
Nov 13, 2003
3,870
2,685
Werribee
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Western Bulldogs
I understand your feelings but I don't know if anyone has proven to have lied, or even worked out who was in charge of hotel quarrantine. Have they? You seem pretty sure about that...

What I don't understand is how one person becomes the face of the virus itself, to the point where the ACTUAL VIRUS is not even the biggest enemy.

Finally, you would never in 100 years convince me that the initial outbreak would not have been 5 times worse if the opposition had have been in power. They would have caved to pressure to open up and it would have been an absolute disaster.
This is enough of a failure on it's own, that no one knows who had the responsibility for it is a pretty sad indictment.
 

Freshwater

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2014
2,052
3,690
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I understand your feelings but I don't know if anyone has proven to have lied, or even worked out who was in charge of hotel quarrantine. Have they? You seem pretty sure about that...

What I don't understand is how one person becomes the face of the virus itself, to the point where the ACTUAL VIRUS is not even the biggest enemy.

Finally, you would never in 100 years convince me that the initial outbreak would not have been 5 times worse if the opposition had have been in power. They would have caved to pressure to open up and it would have been an absolute disaster.
Andrews even admits that he was in charge. How could he not be?
I agree that the Victorian Libs are terrible, but who knows how they would’ve went. All we do know is our state is and was infinitely worse than every other state combined.
Great article today by Chris Ulman in the Age. He is from the ABC and the Age so a‘left of centre’ voice, writing about all the same concerns we have been trying to highlight. That often gets drowned out by those barracking for their side of politics, saying Andrews can do no wrong. Offering all they same solutions we put forth weeks and months ago. Very much worth a look and read.
 

ScragCity

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
9,724
18,955
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Andrews even admits that he was in charge. How could he not be?
I agree that the Victorian Libs are terrible, but who knows how they would’ve went. All we do know is our state is and was infinitely worse than every other state combined.
Great article today by Chris Ulman in the Age. He is from the ABC and the Age so a‘left of centre’ voice, writing about all the same concerns we have been trying to highlight. That often gets drowned out by those barracking for their side of politics, saying Andrews can do no wrong. Offering all they same solutions we put forth weeks and months ago. Very much worth a look and read.
I gave the article a read and I didn't find it very persuasive. I find straw-manning and loaded questions such as,"So, why is it a crime for someone to die of COVID-19 in care but it's OK if they die of absolutely anything else?", to be poor writing. The whole article is incredibly superficial and is just a paraphrasing of months-old discussion points. I was honestly hoping to see a good critique of the government's strategy but was extremely disappointed. I know you're going to dismiss me as a commie Dan-lover but I actually judge what I read on its merits. I think the current "roadmap" is a bit too conversative for my taste and would welcome a better plan.

I have a serious question for the anti-lockdown crowd in here if you're willing to have a good-faith discussion with me:
Given that Victoria is the only state with substantial amount of virus, how would you feel about every state having their borders shut to us until there's a vaccine? Because that is the reality of the situation. No other state will open their borders to us if we decide we are going to open up and just allow the virus to transmit freely. WA and QLD have both shown they won't be bullied into opening their borders by the Feds. If we get this virus down to comparable levels to NSW or even QLD then it's plausible that those of us with family interstate might get to see them before the end of the year. Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere but I haven't read it anywhere.
 
Last edited:

synchrodogcal

Senior List
Dec 17, 2015
195
283
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It still boggles my mind that anyone would turn down an offer of free bodies to help to quarantine. Eccles and this Chris guy appear to have made decision thinking they knew better than everyone else.
were they offered for free? have read elsewhere that they weren't (can't verify this though)
 

Freshwater

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2014
2,052
3,690
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The article highlights what i reckon is Dan main problem and threat is “this is our only option!” He has repeated that ad nauseam. But there are ways out of this, and more importantly than getting out of this, is living with this. The vaccine will never be the panacea some think it will. These viruses mutate every season and the vaccines can never keep up. We are losing billions. Put some of that money, which can be billions of dollars into health and aged care in a much more serious way than now. Employ many more people if needed. Keep those areas monitored and the rest of society opens up. The workers in those areas will be safer than ever. They can have the normal life they need to recharge their batteries so they can be professional. The economy gets going to pay for this and out kids, teenagers especially can not only live their precious youth, but live that youth with courage and hope for the future.
 

Mattdougie

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 29, 2013
16,633
14,907
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
“I don’t know who was in charge”

That comment alone is enough for dismissal.

Dan is lucky the opposition are completely useless as any competent opposition politician would have had him out the door by now.

Quite frightening who is running tis country right now. Every eastboard state is a complete rabble with the Qld “Leader” the gold standard
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

ScragCity

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
9,724
18,955
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
The article highlights what i reckon is Dan main problem and threat is “this is our only option!” He has repeated that ad nauseam. But there are ways out of this, and more importantly than getting out of this, is living with this. The vaccine will never be the panacea some think it will. These viruses mutate every season and the vaccines can never keep up. We are losing billions. Put some of that money, which can be billions of dollars into health and aged care in a much more serious way than now. Employ many more people if needed. Keep those areas monitored and the rest of society opens up. The workers in those areas will be safer than ever. They can have the normal life they need to recharge their batteries so they can be professional. The economy gets going to pay for this and out kids, teenagers especially can not only live their precious youth, but live that youth with courage and hope for the future.
Okay, help me to understand your plan. In this plan are we cutting off the elderly from the rest of society for their own protection? Are we creating some kind of bubble in which aged care workers are shut off from society too, to protect the elderly? Or is the plan to just throw money at the problem indiscriminately and to hope that will fix things? In this plan is there still virus in the general community or has it disappeared on its own? What about the problem of border closures? Are we happy for Victoria to be shut off from the rest of the country? I don't think you've thought this through, FW.
 

Freshwater

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2014
2,052
3,690
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Okay, help me to understand your plan. In this plan are we cutting off the elderly from the rest of society for their own protection? Are we creating some kind of bubble in which aged care workers are shut off from society too, to protect the elderly? Or is the plan to just throw money at the problem indiscriminately and to hope that will fix things? In this plan is there still virus in the general community or has it disappeared on its own? What about the problem of border closures? Are we happy for Victoria to be shut off from the rest of the country? I don't think you've thought this through, FW.
We will never get elimination, just suppression, that’s all Andrews wants or could sensibly achieve. 95% of the cases are going to be in those fields. This will be out reality soon anyway when we are open again. The health care and aged care workers will still be in those jobs. Maybe we could give them help with time in their shifts to protect themselves better, by more staff help, hence the money. They are going to have to get some sort of immunity anyway, like they are to the other thousands of types of viruses that take out old and vulnerable each year. All health care staff live with this, it’s a work place hazard and their mortality is no greater than other professions. Builders have lower life expectancy rates so there is no extra danger they are facing in reality. As was mentioned this virus is a lot more mild than the Spanish flu and we were able to get on with life after that. Are people more panic stricken these days? If they needed more time off let’s do that, shorter hours? There are many things we could do but they cost money. Throwing money at things doesn’t help but having a good plan and spending wisely does. But healthcare workers don’t have to be anything special in the community. We all have our roles to play.
What happens with our border is not our decision but other states. DAn has already said he is open to other states. In that regard he has a good idea. Either way this is our reality soon. Lockdowns are not achievable long term for many reasons and Victorian’s seem to be some of the most docile to authority in the civilised world.
 

King Harold

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 23, 2013
5,950
8,145
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Cleveland Indians
Andrews even admits that he was in charge. How could he not be?
I agree that the Victorian Libs are terrible, but who knows how they would’ve went. All we do know is our state is and was infinitely worse than every other state combined.
Great article today by Chris Ulman in the Age. He is from the ABC and the Age so a‘left of centre’ voice, writing about all the same concerns we have been trying to highlight. That often gets drowned out by those barracking for their side of politics, saying Andrews can do no wrong. Offering all they same solutions we put forth weeks and months ago. Very much worth a look and read.
Here you go again , people saying “ Andrews can do no wrong “
Who exactly has said that ?

Dont think I don’t sympathies with you and anyone else this is impacting badly on.
But continually trying to demonise someone with throw away lines is not a solution.
Has he made mistakes , yes !
Did he deliberately make mistakes to make your life miserable ? Don’t think so.
Does he think the course he has taken to be the best one for us all ? Yes !

From my observation looking around the world , no one has got it all right.
I said when this all started , this is a very difficult no win situation and politicians of all colours are going to be faced with the biggest challenge of their tenure.

Who has got it right ? Would be interested to know Your thoughts on this ?

if we had followed your advise 10 pages back , instead of 50 cases a day what would they be now , and then what ?
thats a question for you !
 

King Harold

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 23, 2013
5,950
8,145
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Cleveland Indians
We will never get elimination, just suppression, that’s all Andrews wants or could sensibly achieve. 95% of the cases are going to be in those fields. This will be out reality soon anyway when we are open again. The health care and aged care workers will still be in those jobs. Maybe we could give them help with time in their shifts to protect themselves better, by more staff help, hence the money. They are going to have to get some sort of immunity anyway, like they are to the other thousands of types of viruses that take out old and vulnerable each year. All health care staff live with this, it’s a work place hazard and their mortality is no greater than other professions. Builders have lower life expectancy rates so there is no extra danger they are facing in reality. As was mentioned this virus is a lot more mild than the Spanish flu and we were able to get on with life after that. Are people more panic stricken these days? If they needed more time off let’s do that, shorter hours? There are many things we could do but they cost money. Throwing money at things doesn’t help but having a good plan and spending wisely does. But healthcare workers don’t have to be anything special in the community. We all have our roles to play.
What happens with our border is not our decision but other states. DAn has already said he is open to other states. In that regard he has a good idea. Either way this is our reality soon. Lockdowns are not achievable long term for many reasons and Victorian’s seem to be some of the most docile to authority in the civilised world.
Just read this - wow , you literally have no clue or handle on history.
I have a friend that works in aged care , just recovered from COVID. Shame you can’t talk to him !

The rest of it , I wouldn’t know where to start !
 

Freshwater

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2014
2,052
3,690
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Just read this - wow , you literally have no clue or handle on history.
I have a friend that works in aged care , just recovered from COVID. Shame you can’t talk to him !

The rest of it , I wouldn’t know where to start !
Chris Ulman wrote a good article, I was having a civilised discussion with Scrag and whoever else is reading and you come in “here you go again....” I have a view which I feel is not based on ideology like our governmental feel wil work, and in reality is how we will have to live soon enough anyway. You obviously don’t agree but this is a forum for ideas. Lose the self-righteousness and provide an argument without the personal put downs all the time.
 

wayniac

Premium Platinum
Sep 28, 2009
870
697
Geelong
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Leeds, Leeds, Leeds. MOT.
Just read this - wow , you literally have no clue or handle on history.
I have a friend that works in aged care , just recovered from COVID. Shame you can’t talk to him !

The rest of it , I wouldn’t know where to start !
Your friend in aged care? How bad was the Covid? Worse than flu? Has he/she ever had a bad dose of flu? What is their general state of health? Do they maintain adequate Vitamin D, Zinc, Magnesium in their diet? What was their treatment regime? We are 8 months into this pandemic and this is the first second-hand anecdote I've heard about Covid. I'm really interested to know more because none of my extended family have caught this virus and I have old school friends travelling to Europe now (Greece, Italy). The Italian guy just got back from Italy and said it's over.

In Sweden, it's over:


STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Sweden last week recorded no excess mortality compared to the average of the past five years for the first time since COVID-19 struck a country whose death toll in the pandemic has eclipsed that of its neighbours, statistics showed on Monday.
Preliminary data from Statistics Sweden showed the country registered 1,524 deaths last week, slightly lower than the average for 2015–2019, which was 1,569 deaths.


If you could be bothered to watch the Irish statistician presentation I put up earlier, you would understand the numbers better around the reason for excess death differences in the Nordic countries.

Denmark finds a different way to kill:

For many years life expectancy in Denmark has improved less than in other comparable western countries, e.g. Sweden. An unhealthy life style, in particular the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, has often been mentioned as a possible explanation. Life expectancy and mortality in Denmark and Sweden has been compared by means of nationwide cause of death registries. Alcohol- and tobacco-related deaths are defined from death certificate diagnoses. The comparisons between the two countries are made by age standardised mortality rates and life expectancies for the period 1997-2001. 50 years ago Denmark had one of the highest life expectancies in the world, but is now at the bottom of the list when compared to similar countries. Life expectancy in Sweden is now almost three years longer than in Denmark. Before the age of 75 there were a total of 3700 premature deaths among Danish men and 3400 among Danish women. Relative excess mortality was highest among Danish men aged 35-64 with a relative excess mortality at 40-50%. Among women excess mortality was 50-60% in the age group 35-74 years. Overall, alcohol and smoking account for almost the entire difference between Danish and Swedish men and for 75% of the difference between Danish and Swedish women. A very substantial part of the Danish excess mortality and low life expectancy compared to Sweden can be attributed to high mortality related to alcohol and tobacco consumption. A reduction of this difference in life expectancy does not seem realistic without a reduction in the consumption of tobacco and alcohol.
 

wayniac

Premium Platinum
Sep 28, 2009
870
697
Geelong
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Leeds, Leeds, Leeds. MOT.
Economists, scientists, epidemiologists...

Lets just not believe anyone with a degree because they've obviously got idea.

🤔
Paul Keating "world's greatest treasurer" didn't have a degree. Claims to be an auto-didact. Insiders said he had no grip on economics, just a very big mouth. For some people he pulled it off. Yeah, nah.
 

King Harold

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 23, 2013
5,950
8,145
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Cleveland Indians
Your friend in aged care? How bad was the Covid? Worse than flu? Has he/she ever had a bad dose of flu? What is their general state of health? Do they maintain adequate Vitamin D, Zinc, Magnesium in their diet? What was their treatment regime? We are 8 months into this pandemic and this is the first second-hand anecdote I've heard about Covid. I'm really interested to know more because none of my extended family have caught this virus and I have old school friends travelling to Europe now (Greece, Italy). The Italian guy just got back from Italy and said it's over.

In Sweden, it's over:


STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Sweden last week recorded no excess mortality compared to the average of the past five years for the first time since COVID-19 struck a country whose death toll in the pandemic has eclipsed that of its neighbours, statistics showed on Monday.
Preliminary data from Statistics Sweden showed the country registered 1,524 deaths last week, slightly lower than the average for 2015–2019, which was 1,569 deaths.


If you could be bothered to watch the Irish statistician presentation I put up earlier, you would understand the numbers better around the reason for excess death differences in the Nordic countries.

Denmark finds a different way to kill:

For many years life expectancy in Denmark has improved less than in other comparable western countries, e.g. Sweden. An unhealthy life style, in particular the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, has often been mentioned as a possible explanation. Life expectancy and mortality in Denmark and Sweden has been compared by means of nationwide cause of death registries. Alcohol- and tobacco-related deaths are defined from death certificate diagnoses. The comparisons between the two countries are made by age standardised mortality rates and life expectancies for the period 1997-2001. 50 years ago Denmark had one of the highest life expectancies in the world, but is now at the bottom of the list when compared to similar countries. Life expectancy in Sweden is now almost three years longer than in Denmark. Before the age of 75 there were a total of 3700 premature deaths among Danish men and 3400 among Danish women. Relative excess mortality was highest among Danish men aged 35-64 with a relative excess mortality at 40-50%. Among women excess mortality was 50-60% in the age group 35-74 years. Overall, alcohol and smoking account for almost the entire difference between Danish and Swedish men and for 75% of the difference between Danish and Swedish women. A very substantial part of the Danish excess mortality and low life expectancy compared to Sweden can be attributed to high mortality related to alcohol and tobacco consumption. A reduction of this difference in life expectancy does not seem realistic without a reduction in the consumption of tobacco and alcohol.
For him pretty bad ( from Japara ,Sunbury facility ) he was ok , symptoms akin to a bad flu.
Not sure the exact numbers , but a fair proportion of the staff contracted the virus and had to isolate.
For 2 of his colleagues ( both older ) things were far more perilous. Not sure what their situation is now.
Of course the residents fared far worse and died regularly.
Now as he says the staff “ get used “ to old people dying , but this was a lot different.
More numbers , multiples per day. Working longer hours because of staff attrition.
Dealing with it mentally was and still is the biggest challenge.

By the way , they don’t get paid a fortune to do this job.
And yes it annoys me when people play this down as nothing more than the flu.
Common sense should tell you governments of all colours around the world don’t shut down economies for the flu.

Plenty of articles available about this facility if your interested.
 

King Harold

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 23, 2013
5,950
8,145
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Cleveland Indians
Paul Keating "world's greatest treasurer" didn't have a degree. Claims to be an auto-didact. Insiders said he had no grip on economics, just a very big mouth. For some people he pulled it off. Yeah, nah.
All that Superannuation sloshing around now , You can thank Keating for.
I well remember the fight he had to get employer contribution for working people.
Its a matter of history the Liberals fought tooth and nail to stop it.
According to them the sky would fall in.
 

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,133
6,340
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Your friend in aged care? How bad was the Covid? Worse than flu? Has he/she ever had a bad dose of flu? What is their general state of health? Do they maintain adequate Vitamin D, Zinc, Magnesium in their diet? What was their treatment regime? We are 8 months into this pandemic and this is the first second-hand anecdote I've heard about Covid. I'm really interested to know more because none of my extended family have caught this virus and I have old school friends travelling to Europe now (Greece, Italy). The Italian guy just got back from Italy and said it's over.

In Sweden, it's over:


STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Sweden last week recorded no excess mortality compared to the average of the past five years for the first time since COVID-19 struck a country whose death toll in the pandemic has eclipsed that of its neighbours, statistics showed on Monday.
Preliminary data from Statistics Sweden showed the country registered 1,524 deaths last week, slightly lower than the average for 2015–2019, which was 1,569 deaths.


If you could be bothered to watch the Irish statistician presentation I put up earlier, you would understand the numbers better around the reason for excess death differences in the Nordic countries.

Denmark finds a different way to kill:

For many years life expectancy in Denmark has improved less than in other comparable western countries, e.g. Sweden. An unhealthy life style, in particular the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, has often been mentioned as a possible explanation. Life expectancy and mortality in Denmark and Sweden has been compared by means of nationwide cause of death registries. Alcohol- and tobacco-related deaths are defined from death certificate diagnoses. The comparisons between the two countries are made by age standardised mortality rates and life expectancies for the period 1997-2001. 50 years ago Denmark had one of the highest life expectancies in the world, but is now at the bottom of the list when compared to similar countries. Life expectancy in Sweden is now almost three years longer than in Denmark. Before the age of 75 there were a total of 3700 premature deaths among Danish men and 3400 among Danish women. Relative excess mortality was highest among Danish men aged 35-64 with a relative excess mortality at 40-50%. Among women excess mortality was 50-60% in the age group 35-74 years. Overall, alcohol and smoking account for almost the entire difference between Danish and Swedish men and for 75% of the difference between Danish and Swedish women. A very substantial part of the Danish excess mortality and low life expectancy compared to Sweden can be attributed to high mortality related to alcohol and tobacco consumption. A reduction of this difference in life expectancy does not seem realistic without a reduction in the consumption of tobacco and alcohol.
This doesn't seem like it's copy pasted from a conspiracy website again, but could you at least post the links to where you copy paste from so we can read in context?
 

dogwatch

Premium Platinum
Jun 17, 2009
20,342
30,378
Canberra
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arsenal
Mike Cannon-Brookes (the young Australian billionaire, co-founder of tech company Atlassian) has just called Morrison's bluff on the gas-fired recovery from the Covid19 recession.

He's prepared to put up what he claims will be a reliable, inexpensive power solution that is based on renewables and not fossil fuels. According to Morrison's rhetoric low cost and high reliability are the key criteria.

Morrison's hand-picked team to advise him on how to navigate out of the recession is stacked with names from the fossil fuel industry, especially the gas people. So clearly he only wanted and expected one answer. He has barely tried to disguise that.

MCB has called on the PM to issue a technology-neutral Request for Tender to which he and probably Elon Musk (of Tesla fame) will be happy to respond.

Whatever the correct solution ends up being, this is a great development. It aims to bring the debate about the roadmap out into the open (just as the other roadmap should be). I expect there will be strong resistance to MCB's overtures and I doubt he'll get far but it'll make fascinating viewing. The fossil fuel industry doesn't take kindly to anything standing in their way, whether they be companies, governments or individuals. They have their men in Canberra and would have assumed the gas route was a lay down misere.

Watch this space.

 

Top Bottom