Coronavirus/COVID-19

[TommyD13]

The vaccine is not an implant.

I think the point here is missed. The question was what is the difference with people being okay with drug tests but not vaccines. I said that a drug test does not go inside you, nor is it permanent, in the sense that you cannot remove a vaccine. I am explaining why people are hesitant, not what I think is true

 

[Sentinel]

I think the point here is missed. The question was what is the difference with people being okay with drug tests but not vaccines. I said that a drug test does not go inside you, nor is it permanent, in the sense that you cannot remove a vaccine. I am explaining why people are hesitant, not what I think is true

Your body breaks down and removes the injected vaccine itself quite quickly, as it does with other drugs. It is the body's immunological response to the vaccine which is permanent, or at least semi-permanent given it generally wanes over time.

 

[footscray1973]

I think the point here is missed. The question was what is the difference with people being okay with drug tests but not vaccines. I said that a drug test does not go inside you, nor is it permanent, in the sense that you cannot remove a vaccine. I am explaining why people are hesitant, not what I think is true

To take your point further then, I would be curious to know how many of the vaccine hesitants also refuse other vaccines, e.g. flu, their own children's immunisations, vaccines for international travel to various other countries?

Also how many food products do they consume that are packaged o/s where the hygiene protocols are less stringent? How many of these vaccine hesitants drink apple juice for example, the majority of which is not locally produced, but sourced from China, and been shown to contain pesticides and other chemicals?

I know you can't answer that, but I'm betting the majority of vaccine hesitants don't have a blanket policy on screening everything that goes into their body. Yet they're hesitant about being injected with a vaccine that has still managed to go through rigorous trials (regardless of specific vaccine), with scientists from across the globe working together to deliver the safest products they can.

 

[Northernsoul74]

I don’t think workplaces should be made to accommodate staff who, through their own decisions, can no longer work on site.

I agree but how long will they tolerate 100% working from home before they look to let them go? Or will at some point the unvaccinated will be allowed back in once things settle down.

 

[BEaston]

I think the point here is missed. The question was what is the difference with people being okay with drug tests but not vaccines. I said that a drug test does not go inside you, nor is it permanent, in the sense that you cannot remove a vaccine. I am explaining why people are hesitant, not what I think is true

I agree it's different to a drug test. I wasn't addressing that point, rather your understanding of how vaccines work.

 

[ScragCity]

Well once it is in you, you cannot take it out. A drug test is never in you

Thats a bizarre definition of permanent. By that definition eating an apple is permanent once its digested.

 

[ScragCity]

Your body breaks down and removes the injected vaccine itself quite quickly, as it does with other drugs. It is the body's immunological response to the vaccine which is permanent, or at least semi-permanent given it generally wanes over time.

The immune response isn't even close to permanent. Unless you consider 6-12 months to be permanent.

 

[footscray1973]

I agree but how long will they tolerate 100% working from home before they look to let them go? Or will at some point the unvaccinated will be allowed back in once things settle down.

My employer (greater Ballarat area) is mandating vaccinations for staff to return to work, per Vic Govt guidelines. The majority are still working from home, and many unlikely to return to the work place before Christmas. There is a requirement to provide evidence of vaccination (or vaccination booking). They are yet to broach the next steps (I suspect like many employers), and while some staff could theoretically work from home permanently, I can't see them allowing that arrangement in other than very few extreme exceptions. The next 6-12 months will be interesting across the country to see how employers manage that scenario, and also how self-employed who choose to be unvaccinated (e.g. tradies and service industry, etc) will be placed, in terms of govt policy, but also acceptance by their customers, or where they work in tandem with other self-employed, etc.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

The immune response isn't even close to permanent. Unless you consider 6-12 months to be permanent.

That’s right, hence booster shots for quite a number of different vaccines.

 

[TommyD13]

Your body breaks down and removes the injected vaccine itself quite quickly, as it does with other drugs. It is the body's immunological response to the vaccine which is permanent, or at least semi-permanent given it generally wanes over time.

I know. A better way of wording it is probably 'once you are vaccinated you cannot become unvaccinated' is the difference between that and a drug test.

 

[TommyD13]

I agree it's different to a drug test. I wasn't addressing that point, rather your understanding of how vaccines work.

I have a good understanding of how they work. I am suggesting reasons for people who do not, and what reasons they use to rationalise their non-vaccinated status

 

[TommyD13]

Thats a bizarre definition of permanent. By that definition eating an apple is permanent once its digested.

You don't go round having long-lasting effects of eating an apple. An apple a day maybe but not one apple months later.

 

[ScragCity]

You don't go round having long-lasting effects of eating an apple. An apple a day maybe but not one apple months later.

So now you're changing your definition of permanence from "cannot be removed from one's body" to "having long-lasting effects"? How long do these effects need to last for you to consider them permanent? If vaccine immunity lasts 6-12 months, as seems to be the case, do you consider that permanent?

 

[ScragCity]

I know. A better way of wording it is probably 'once you are vaccinated you cannot become unvaccinated' is the difference between that and a drug test.

Thats also silly. You could also say that "once you have been drug tested you cannot become undrug-tested." It makes no sense. Just admit that there's nothing permanent about the vaccines and you can save yourself from playing these mental gymnastics.

 

[TommyD13]

Thats also silly. You could also say that "once you have been drug tested you cannot become undrug-tested." It makes no sense. Just admit that there's nothing permanent about the vaccines and you can save yourself from playing these mental gymnastics.

I know the vaccines are not permanent. I am saying why OTHERS are refusing the vaccine, is because it cannot be removed from them and they are not sold on what is in it. You made the comparison to a drug test, which I believe to be a relatively poor example. I have had my first jab (awaiting the time to lapse for my second) and have no issue with the vaccine having passed the regulatory requirements and believe for someone who has no experience in the medical industry, have a reasonable level of understanding on how they work.

I think you have become too invested in my precise words, rather than the general point I am trying to make. Maybe a better comparison to the drug test is a covid test? No one really refuses them. But people are refusing the vaccine. That is because the vaccine is injected into them, rather than pissing in a cup or pulling some hair out, or shoving a stick up your nose. It is a fluid going inside you that once it is in, such procedure cannot be undone. Obviously a drug test cannot be undone. But it is not going inside you, its just you pissing so there would never be any need for it to be undone. People are uncertain on this vaccine because they do not want something going in them that they may later regret due to unforeseen longer-term effects. I do not have such hesitation, but some people do. I think the comparison to the drug test is simply invalid, on the sole basis that one is going in and one is coming out. If you made a different comparison for another drug being compulsory for someone to continue their occupation (perhaps another vaccine, the flu shot) then yeah that is a good comparison. But a drug test is not.

 

[dogwatch]

Why all the pedantry and shooting of the messenger? Have I missed something?

I've come in late but it seems all Tommy was trying to say was that people would see a drug test as quite different to having a vaccination.
One takes a small amount of stuff out of your body (usually without needing to puncture your skin to do it) and the other puts stuff into your body via a needle.

I can't see why that concept is so difficult. We don't have to agree with the people Tommy's talking about. I don't think even he does.

 

[TommyD13]

Why all the pedantry and shooting of the messenger? Have I missed something?

I've come in late but it seems all Tommy was trying to say was that people would see a drug test as quite different to having a vaccination.
One takes a small amount of stuff out of your body (usually without needing to puncture your skin to do it) and the other puts stuff into your body via a needle.

I can't see why that concept is so difficult. We don't have to agree with the people Tommy's talking about. I don't think even he does.

Thank you. I disagree with them as much as the next person here. I am trying to provide some insight (particularly as I have a few relatives who often trumpet to me their reasons not getting vaccinated) on why people are hesitant.

 

[ScragCity]

I know the vaccines are not permanent. I am saying why OTHERS are refusing the vaccine, is because it cannot be removed from them and they are not sold on what is in it. You made the comparison to a drug test, which I believe to be a relatively poor example. I have had my first jab (awaiting the time to lapse for my second) and have no issue with the vaccine having passed the regulatory requirements and believe for someone who has no experience in the medical industry, have a reasonable level of understanding on how they work.

I think you have become too invested in my precise words, rather than the general point I am trying to make. Maybe a better comparison to the drug test is a covid test? No one really refuses them. But people are refusing the vaccine. That is because the vaccine is injected into them, rather than pissing in a cup or pulling some hair out, or shoving a stick up your nose. It is a fluid going inside you that once it is in, such procedure cannot be undone. Obviously a drug test cannot be undone. But it is not going inside you, its just you pissing so there would never be any need for it to be undone. People are uncertain on this vaccine because they do not want something going in them that they may later regret due to unforeseen longer-term effects. I do not have such hesitation, but some people do. I think the comparison to the drug test is simply invalid, on the sole basis that one is going in and one is coming out. If you made a different comparison for another drug being compulsory for someone to continue their occupation (perhaps another vaccine, the flu shot) then yeah that is a good comparison. But a drug test is not.

I'll admit that the drug test comparison was not a good one at all. I just wanted to push back on the idea that the vaccines are permanent. We might one day learn that there was some unforeseen side-effects that show up years down the track and are permanent, but there's no reason to think that they will.

 

[Sentinel]

I know the vaccines are not permanent. I am saying why OTHERS are refusing the vaccine, is because it cannot be removed from them and they are not sold on what is in it. You made the comparison to a drug test, which I believe to be a relatively poor example. I have had my first jab (awaiting the time to lapse for my second) and have no issue with the vaccine having passed the regulatory requirements and believe for someone who has no experience in the medical industry, have a reasonable level of understanding on how they work.

I think you have become too invested in my precise words, rather than the general point I am trying to make. Maybe a better comparison to the drug test is a covid test? No one really refuses them. But people are refusing the vaccine. That is because the vaccine is injected into them, rather than pissing in a cup or pulling some hair out, or shoving a stick up your nose. It is a fluid going inside you that once it is in, such procedure cannot be undone. Obviously a drug test cannot be undone. But it is not going inside you, its just you pissing so there would never be any need for it to be undone. People are uncertain on this vaccine because they do not want something going in them that they may later regret due to unforeseen longer-term effects. I do not have such hesitation, but some people do. I think the comparison to the drug test is simply invalid, on the sole basis that one is going in and one is coming out. If you made a different comparison for another drug being compulsory for someone to continue their occupation (perhaps another vaccine, the flu shot) then yeah that is a good comparison. But a drug test is not.

I agree that a drug test is a probably not a great example given your points about one being internal and one being external. I guess in the case of an AFL footballer, which is where this originally started, they would be instructed to follow a specific diet and be prescribed certain painkillers, I'm not actually sure of the professional consequences should they refuse that?

I also believe that the 'unknown long term side effects' line is significantly overplayed in the same way that certain people push that this is an 'experimental' vaccine. It is a topic which has been covered before and I think that many people who use it as a reason to not take the vaccine are either innocently or willfully ignorant towards both the studies and the mechanism of the vaccines and what it means (or doesn't mean) long term.

 

[dogwatch]

Thank you. I disagree with them as much as the next person here. I am trying to provide some insight (particularly as I have a few relatives who often trumpet to me their reasons not getting vaccinated) on why people are hesitant.

I think it's just what happens during the long dreary months of the off season.

We all need something to do. My project is researching the Scragg name and family history. It seems there was a Dennis Scragg that arrived in the 1850s on the good ship Samuel Boddington (hic!).



While some Scraggs are from Norfolk (England) and Peebles-shire (Scotland), there's also a town called Scragg in Co Tipperary. (Maybe it has become a city?)

Anyway, go the Scraggers!!

 

[TommyD13]

I'll admit that the drug test comparison was not a good one at all. I just wanted to push back on the idea that the vaccines are permanent. We might one day learn that there was some unforeseen side-effects that show up years down the track and are permanent, but there's no reason to think that they will.

I agree. The chances are very slim, and most of us are willing to take the chance. But some are not, and my view is that most of the time their reason for this is that the vaccine 'cannot be undone' (whichever way you want to word this, I don't mind, but I hope by now you understand my gist of what I am saying they mean ), and also that I do not agree with this perspective!

 

[TommyD13]

I agree that a drug test is a probably not a great example given your points about one being internal and one being external. I guess in the case of an AFL footballer, which is where this originally started, they would be instructed to follow a specific diet and be prescribed certain painkillers, I'm not actually sure of the professional consequences should they refuse that?

I also believe that the 'unknown long term side effects' line is significantly overplayed in the same way that certain people push that this is an 'experimental' vaccine. It is a topic which has been covered before and I think that many people who use it as a reason to not take the vaccine are either innocently or willfully ignorant towards both the studies and the mechanism of the vaccines and what it means (or doesn't mean) long term.

I suppose that’s the best comparison. Is there anything AFL players must have in their body at this point, to the point where there is ramifications? I’m not sure, genuine question. Flu shot maybe?

 

[Chicago1]

Good news: I figured out a way to get my Covid-19 Digital Certificate onto my ancient Samsung Galaxy S4 phone. Please don't laugh.

 

[footscray1973]

Good news: I figured out a way to get my Covid-19 Digital Certificate onto my ancient Samsung Galaxy S4 phone. Please don't laugh.

You could have printed a hard copy and stuck it to your phone!

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

You could have printed a hard copy and stuck it to your phone!

Take a photo of it with your phone.