Could Collingwood follow Richmond and the Bulldogs

[Elton Johns Wig]

S'bottom -
--- G-------B-------K-------H-------D--------M-------T

Cotchin -
--- G-------B-------K-------H-------D--------M-------T

I like Sidebottom, I'd take him.

Regarding these stats, it just proves that numbers aren't everything. In the 3/4 years previous, people were (rightly) critical of Cotchin for out the back possessions and looking for the return handball, padded stats if you will. This year, less stats, and most would agree, far more impact.

Now, I didn't watch every Pies game, so I can't fairly comment, but saying Sidey had a better year because his numbers were better can be misleading.

Thanks mate, could argue if we had a year like Richmond then Steele would not be "under the radar" and if they had a year like us then Cotchin would be under the radar

I do struggle with Sidey under the radar. Pendles rightly gets his dues. I really like Adams, people crack at his disposal but I'd rather have him in a midfield rotation than not. Treloar gets his press. Sidebottom seems to miss out. Why is that?


I don't think the Pies list is near as bad as some people are making out. Can definitely make the 8, and anything can happen from there.

augie I don't know what's up your arse, but not every Tiges supporter has been dismissive of the Pies, same as any other club. But you keep seeing what you want to see.

 

[Gone Critical]

Irrespective of the other sides, you still play a considerable amount of football at the ground you play your best footy. Don't worry about the other sides, just hopefully you can maximise your draw and set yourself for top 8, which I think you can.

Ok so it's not an amazing draw just stock standard for a MCG tenant.

Unfortunately I doubt we play well enough at the G to make finals.

 

[Gone Critical]

Going after Wells and Mayne when it was obvious to blind Freddy that the Pies required another quality key forward is one of the more puzzling recruiting strategies of recent years.

Mayne was a disaster but Wells was the right play. You don't find quality KPFs with late draft picks and there were non available to us to trade for in that case off season.

End of 2016 we lost a huge amount of experience and bought in mainly kids to replace them. Getting Mayne, Dunn and Wells at very little cost at least balanced some of the experience lost

Agree we would love another KPF but picking Wells and Mayne isn't what prevented that happening. Think there will be a big play for Lynch if he doesn't sign for GC

 

[Snake_Baker]

Mayne was a disaster but Wells was the right play. You don't find quality KPFs with late draft picks and there were non available to us to trade for in that case off season.

End of 2016 we lost a huge amount of experience and bought in mainly kids to replace them. Getting Mayne, Dunn and Wells at very little cost at least balanced some of the experience lost.

I understand that the opportunity needs to arise also. I wouldn't rate these 3 at (1.5 million?) as "very little cost" though.

Agree we would love another KPF but picking Wells and Mayne isn't what prevented that happening. Think there will be a big play for Lynch if he doesn't sign for GC

If that's the case then there is going to be a fire sale down at Collingwood.

 

[Gone Critical]

I like Sidebottom, I'd take him.

Regarding these stats, it just proves that numbers aren't everything. In the 3/4 years previous, people were (rightly) critical of Cotchin for out the back possessions and looking for the return handball, padded stats if you will. This year, less stats, and most would agree, far more impact.

Now, I didn't watch every Pies game, so I can't fairly comment, but saying Sidey had a better year because his numbers were better can be misleading.



I do struggle with Sidey under the radar. Pendles rightly gets his dues. I really like Adams, people crack at his disposal but I'd rather have him in a midfield rotation than not. Treloar gets his press. Sidebottom seems to miss out. Why is that?


I don't think the Pies list is near as bad as some people are making out. Can definitely make the 8, and anything can happen from there.

augie I don't know what's up your arse, but not every Tiges supporter has been dismissive of the Pies, same as any other club. But you keep seeing what you want to see.

Sidey would get a game at every team and not many Pie players could say that. He is consistent and 2017 was arguably his best season. He is not in the top level of mids but a super dependable consistent B+ type who is someone every team needs.

 

[augie]

I like Sidebottom, I'd take him.

Regarding these stats, it just proves that numbers aren't everything. In the 3/4 years previous, people were (rightly) critical of Cotchin for out the back possessions and looking for the return handball, padded stats if you will. This year, less stats, and most would agree, far more impact.

Now, I didn't watch every Pies game, so I can't fairly comment, but saying Sidey had a better year because his numbers were better can be misleading.



I do struggle with Sidey under the radar. Pendles rightly gets his dues. I really like Adams, people crack at his disposal but I'd rather have him in a midfield rotation than not. Treloar gets his press. Sidebottom seems to miss out. Why is that?


I don't think the Pies list is near as bad as some people are making out. Can definitely make the 8, and anything can happen from there.

augie I don't know what's up your arse, but not every Tiges supporter has been dismissive of the Pies, same as any other club. But you keep seeing what you want to see.

What I said was that Richmond supporters were comfortably the most unequivocal that Collingwood can't do it. It was an observation from reading all the posts in the thread, and it seemed a pretty obvious one at that. Go and have a read through yourself. Maybe one post that could be interpreted as positive, one or two neither positive or negative and all others very negative. I'm not concerned about it. Just found it interesting and thought it was noteworthy in terms of an example of supporter mindset.

 

[Gone Critical]

I understand that the opportunity needs to arise also. I wouldn't rate these 3 at (1.5 million?) as "very little cost" though.


.

Once Brown, Marsh and Frost went off the list at the end of 2016 we were very exposed for KPBs. Dunn has been an excellent pick up for the short term, fixed a real need while hopefully McLarty and Moore develop for now.

Wells provided something we lack massively in a mid with elite disposal. We won mostly when he played in 2017 because he just corrects us so much. The only real question there for me was giving him 3 years

Mayne is just scratch your head and wonder what Gubby was thinking.

The low cost was in the pick up price. With the list where it's at the cap should have some wriggle room anyway. Mayne for 4 years will be the anchor that weighs us down.

 

[Gone Critical]

If that's the case then there is going to be a fire sale down at Collingwood.

Don't think so. He has been in the planning so I suspect the cap has been adjusted to allow a big bid to be made.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Don't think so. He has been in the planning so I suspect the cap has been adjusted to allow a big bid to be made.

Assuming the Pies cap is maxed out, who do you see making way for the coin (~$1.3 mill?) to become available?

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

What I said was that Richmond supporters were comfortably the most unequivocal that Collingwood can't do it. It was an observation from reading all the posts in the thread, and it seemed a pretty obvious one at that. Go and have a read through yourself. Maybe one post that could be interpreted as positive, one or two neither positive or negative and all others very negative. I'm not concerned about it. Just found it interesting and thought it was noteworthy in terms of an example of supporter mindset.

I've had a read, that's why I commented. As I said, you see what you want to see. Yes, there are some very dismissive Tiger posters in here, but none more than other clubs. I've read every post. I found that Wells stat a real eye opener. He needs to stay fit. Elliott too.

Interesting you talk about supporter mindset. Reckon your head isn't in the game if you are focusing on which supporters are dismissing you the most.

 

[Gone Critical]

Assuming the Pies cap is maxed out, who do you see making way for the coin (~$1.3 mill?) to become available?

The assumption I am making is the cap isn't maxed out and some provision has been made for making a play for him. I think the Pies have been in his ear for awhile.

Not a lot of natural attrition in the list at seasons end. Blair, Goldsack and Dunn may all make way depending on form but no big contracts there. Don't see much other obvious movement apart from borderline players like Aish, Scharenberg, Broomhead, Wills, Thomas, Smith and even Cal Brown, Daicos and Kirby who all need to show something in 2018 to make sure they are not the ones who get delisted, a few from that group will go.

Hopefully the club has something already allowed for although I am not really in favour of going too far in the offer for one player. Could unbalance th list just as much going forward. If Cox steps up a bit this year will lessen the need anyway and he has showed promise.

 

[boncer34]

Assuming the Pies cap is maxed out, who do you see making way for the coin (~$1.3 mill?) to become available?

Do you just assume every cap is maxed out except Norths?

 

[Richo83]

Whilst I agree the list is unbalanced, I disagree the list cannot improve as a whole and build a game plan to it's strengths which it has not to date. You mention poor skills from a number of players, yet I've previously mentioned the club is addressing this and a myriad of other issues. Again you're hypothesizing on what you've seen and speculating the future in a worst outcome view or may I say wishful thinking - that's fair we can only speculate. Your posts give the impression there is at best bare minimum improvement where as many would argue that an improvement in disposal efficiency alone will have dramatic effect given the ball winning ability - not to mention a game plan tweak.

You see spuds because of extremely poor management and development, I see massive potential untapped for the same reason.

Many would've said the same for Richmond this time a year ago, yet I get the impression you're just trying to will bad fortune on us with your bleak views

Collingwood's main strengths list wise are midfielders. Buckley has built a team around winning the contested ball, playing a possession game and clogging the midfield with players (i.e. Buckley doesn't throw men back or forward as much as other coaches, he tends to leave as much players between the arcs as possible). So it's hard to really say he's created a gamestyle that doesn't suit your list.

It's possible that his possession style of play doesn't suit your midfield group, given there aren't that many elite kicks among them (Penblebury is elite, Sidebottom fluffs too many kicks to be considered elite, the rest aren't elite). Yet Collingwood's midfield seems to get the ball in there enough, it's just that, for whatever reason, it breaks down inside 50.

If it's the midfield's fault, then maybe this vaunted midfield isn't that good, and needs to play more direct (playing more direct stops the defence from flooding back, allowing your forwards to win the ball easier, even if it's not an accurate kick, and playing more direct reduces the number of possessions you need to get inside 50, and reduces the risk of turnovers outside of inside 50).

If it's the forwardline's fault, then it's just an issue of personnel, not gamestyle. I think Collingwood gets enough inside 50s per game to win, but their forwardline lets it down.

I think Buckley need to take some blame, but generally when a side consistently struggles like Collingwood has, it's a combination of talent and structure. It's interesting that at times, Collingwood seem to be playing an almost Hawthorn type chip and slice style of gameplan but can't pull it off due to the footskills of the team. Not sure if that's Buckley being stubborn or the Collingwood players just not being able to dispose of the football properly.

 

[Richo83]

Mayne was a disaster but Wells was the right play. You don't find quality KPFs with late draft picks and there were non available to us to trade for in that case off season.

End of 2016 we lost a huge amount of experience and bought in mainly kids to replace them. Getting Mayne, Dunn and Wells at very little cost at least balanced some of the experience lost

Agree we would love another KPF but picking Wells and Mayne isn't what prevented that happening. Think there will be a big play for Lynch if he doesn't sign for GC

I'll be genuinely surprised if Wells plays a full season with Collingwood... ever. He's nearly 33 and not exactly a guy you can build the team around long term. I also think it's odd that pies are a team which think it has to settle for B-grade off-cuts from non-finalist teams who are, what, over 30 or nearing it? Why can't Collingwood land someone good like Trengove or Rockliff? Instead they land someone who, in 2016, finished his career playing seconds for a team which finished 11th and needed defenders.

 

[00Stinger]

There is simply no comparison between Richmond and Collingwood or the Bulldogs and Collingwood.

Richmond is more comparable to Geelong 05-07. They made three consecutive finals series then had a bad year and bounced back.

The Bulldogs are comparable to Hawthorn in 08. A young team on the rise that pinched a flag before it's time.

Collingwood have regressed each year for 5 years under an ordinary coach. They have an ordinary forward line and backline. They have a pretty good young ruckman and a midfield stacked with turnover merchants other than Pendelbury.

I keep on hearing the media and their supporters telling everyone that Wells will be the one to propel them up the ladder but the fact is he will be 33 at the start of the 2018 season and has managed to only play 41 games over the last 4 seasons. He has always been a good player but geez he seems to have gotten better in people minds since he hasn't been playing.

Anything could happen but I reckon it would be a mini miracle if Collingwood even made the finals let alone won the premiership. The only teams that I could see them potentially over taking that finished in front of them last year would be possibly West Coast, St Kilda and Hawthorn. But I wouldn't be surprised if Fremantle and possibly Brisbane over took them this year

 

[Richo83]

Do you just assume every cap is maxed out except Norths?

To be fair to snakey boy, I have seen pies fans claim that the team's ability to recruit was limited by the Mayne deal, so there may be a kernel of truth to this.

I'm genuinely interested how much Collingwood gave to Dunn, Wells and Mayne. Madness if they're all combined getting anything close to $1.5 a year.

 

[Richo83]

There is simply no comparison between Richmond and Collingwood or the Bulldogs and Collingwood.

Richmond is more comparable to Geelong 05-07. They made three consecutive finals series then had a bad year and bounced back.

The Bulldogs are comparable to Hawthorn in 08. A young team on the rise that pinched a flag before it's time.

Collingwood have regressed each year for 5 years under an ordinary coach. They have an ordinary forward line and backline. They have a pretty good young ruckman and a midfield stacked with turnover merchants other than Pendelbury.

I keep on hearing the media and their supporters telling everyone that Wells will be the one to propel them up the ladder but the fact is he will be 33 at the start of the 2018 season and has managed to only play 41 games over the last 4 seasons. He has always been a good player but geez he seems to have gotten better in people minds since he hasn't been playing.

Anything could happen but I reckon it would be a mini miracle if Collingwood even made the finals let alone won the premiership. The only teams that I could see them potentially over taking that finished in front of them last year would be possibly West Coast, St Kilda and Hawthorn. But I wouldn't be surprised if Fremantle and possibly Brisbane over took them this year

This. Relying on Wells is fool's gold since he's incredibly injury prone. The last time he played a full season was in 2013.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Do you just assume every cap is maxed out except Norths?

It's based upon several issues. List age, depth, position type, quality of players etc.

In regards to North, we are in an unusual position of having 18 kids on one year contracts next season, another couple of pending retirees taking up a million plus dollars (Waite & Thompson), and another couple that might not get back from injury (Wright & Jacobs).

That's half the list right there.

 

[prodigy1311]

Yes.

The Pies probably have a better list than either of the other sides.

Adam Treloar, is that you?

 

[Gone Critical]

This. Relying on Wells is fool's gold since he's incredibly injury prone. The last time he played a full season was in 2013.

19 games in 2016 would be a full season. He is short term but gee he addresses a big big weakness for us and gives us system that hopefully the likes of De Goey, Stephenson etc can develop and give us better disposal by foot

 

[Snake_Baker]

19 games in 2016 would be a full season. He is short term but gee he addresses a big big weakness for us and gives us system that hopefully the likes of De Goey, Stephenson etc can develop and give us better disposal by foot

He's a star, but at 31 and with his history it was a big risk, and lets be frank, Wells would improve any side, but it's not as if Collingwood were struggling for running midfielders in the first place.

 

[TwentyNine]

See, this is the big myth about Collingwood - you say that the gameplan/coach are awful but the list is good, when the reality is that the list is actually also awful.

 

[Bulldog1954]

See, this is the big myth about Collingwood - you say that the gameplan/coach are awful but the list is good, when the reality is that the list is actually also awful.

Exactly. Collingwood are a huge team that sells newspapers and attracts viewers. As a result, each year they are touted as a big improver, but the fact is their list is miles behind the dogs 2016 list and the tigers 2017 list.

 

[demondavey]

For me that's the most frustrating thing about us at the moment. We have a good list and we just bolstered out deficiencies in the rookie draft (KPD) which has proven effective for us in the past. But something just seems to be slightly off, and it's the difference between winning and losing individual games, over and over again.

I don't think it's a case of "Buckley can't coach, get him out", it's a case of "Buckley has the midfield firing and our defense has been very good despite it's limitations, so maybe he needs to tweak the forward line".

If our list was truly crap, more people would be in this thread saying "No ******* way are they even making finals" but we're in a bit of limbo where we have the potential but there's something missing.

I think you're forward line is the weak link, your defence is firm enough if Moore comes on down there. You definitely have a very good chance of playing finals, and it's baffling people will just write them off.

You need one big target to kick to, that player doesn't have to be a Lynch or Franklin, but a player that can keep a KPD busy and can give you 30-40 goals. The trick is rolling your midfielders and half forwards around to add the pressure (demonstrated by the WB & Richmond).

Your list? Definitely capable of the 8.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Yes.

The Pies probably have a better list than either of the other sides.

The Dogs have beat Collingwood 5 times in a row and finished ahead of them the last 3 seasons, winning a Premiership in that time. But their list is better??

It seems stupid to even have to say it, but no, Collingwoods list is not better than the last 2 Premiership sides. It's a crap list, that hasn't undergone the proper rebuild it needed to.