Injury Could Elliott's career be over?

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TRS and I went further into it via PM. There's another reason I think Collingwood have mismanaged him. But saying it here would be naming a specific person which I didn't want to do. I never claimed to be an expert and openly stated how I formed my opinion. Which mind you, ended up being spot on. Was I probably too harsh in my language relating specifically to what TRS was pissed about? Maybe, but he is hopefully a little clearer on why I said what I said, rightly or wrongly.

I'm well aware I'm not medical expert and have never claimed to be, but let's also not forget, regardless of my Googlefu, don't act like medical malpractice isn't a thing in the real world and there legitimately ARE shitty doctors out there. Even ones who have studied for years to be one. When I sadi Collingwood were mismanaging Jamie, that wasn't specifically aimed at the medicos and maybe I should have been clearer on that. Which is why I brought up the Brisbane thing. The Brisbane situation reeked of the football department strong arming the medicos. Which could be happening with Jamie for all we know.

You were not spot on about your assertions that Collingwood, either medical, physio, condioning staff etc mismanaged Elliott's injury. This has nothing to do whether malpractice exists, of course it does. It's about whether you can form a valid opinion about whether Elliott was mismanaged. You can't and TRS explained that to you.

Not sure what your other reason is but if it doesn't involve detailed inside information obtained about the specifics of Elliott's injury and management, acquired from the club, which has then been reviewed by an independent expert in the field who then subsequently passed their deliberations on to you, then it doesn't change that you don't know.

Sometimes a bit of knowledge is a bad thing when someone doesn't understand their limitations.
 

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I would be happy for Billy to sit out the rest of the season, if it helps him maintain a career thereafter.
We are not finals bound this year and half the team is already lost to injury.
Lets just put everyone who is injured in cotton wool, finish in the bottom six and hopefully get a great run with fixture and injury next year and have a crack at top four.
 
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We just don't have the inside knowledge or expertise to answer this question... One of the things that you learn as you get experience in any field is what you don't know. It informs all the decisions you make.

Testing and re-testing case conceptualisations and hypotheses is core to any applied science (ie medicine and physio). Without humility, the expert does not learn and the client is at risk.
 

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You were not spot on about your assertions that Collingwood, either medical, physio, condioning staff etc mismanaged Elliott's injury. This has nothing to do whether malpractice exists, of course it does. It's about whether you can form a valid opinion about whether Elliott was mismanaged. You can't and TRS explained that to you.

Not sure what your other reason is but if it doesn't involve detailed inside information obtained about the specifics of Elliott's injury and management, acquired from the club, which has then been reviewed by an independent expert in the field who then subsequently passed their deliberations on to you, then it doesn't change that you don't know.

Sometimes a bit of knowledge is a bad thing when someone doesn't understand their limitations.

My "spot on opinion" was more about how I said Jamie was gone for the year. Sorry, there's been some jumping back and forth spread over like 3 threads over this.

In the end, there are certain things I won't back down on and we're going to have to agree to disagree. Surely both yourself and TRS can at the very least concede that doctor's exist that are bad at their profession? Like in any profession? I mean, both yourself and TRS have on occasion questioned players/coaches etc in the club have you not? Despite not being "experts" in the field? None of us are footballers, football coaches, development coaches, recruiters or anything like that yet we've all made disparaging remarks about those in those positions within the club.

Honestly? This just seems like TRS (and yourself it seems now) have taken something personally that I said when there was realistically no reason to because it wasn't aimed at EITHER of you.

I never once claimed to be a medical expert despite both of you continuing to allude to me claiming as much. I think there's a chance that in this particular instance, despite my ADMITTED lack of expertise in the field, some may need to swallow some pride and admit that I may have been right. The club itself is all but admitting it got it wrong by seeing another specialist. We're talking about something that has technically been going on for a year with a diagnosis only officially coming early this year. TRS himself said that if push came to shove, the treatment I suggested is what HE would have gone with!

Not sure how else to interpret that aside from mismanagement. Being pissed about my use of the word "shitty" is arguing semantics. "Shitty", "Mismanaged" whatever. They're all a different way of saying the club got it wrong. Which is all I said to begin with. I never actually said the club doctor's got it wrong. I said THE CLUB got it wrong. There's many ways that can happen. Which is why I also brought up Brisbane, highlighting how the football department can override the medical department.

I fully get what you and TRS are pissed about. I do. I also technically agree with why you're both pissed. I just don't think either of you are right in this case. At this point in this discussion, it seems more about pride now than anything else.
 
My "spot on opinion" was more about how I said Jamie was gone for the year. Sorry, there's been some jumping back and forth spread over like 3 threads over this.

In the end, there are certain things I won't back down on and we're going to have to agree to disagree. Surely both yourself and TRS can at the very least concede that doctor's exist that are bad at their profession? Like in any profession? I mean, both yourself and TRS have on occasion questioned players/coaches etc in the club have you not? Despite not being "experts" in the field? None of us are footballers, football coaches, development coaches, recruiters or anything like that yet we've all made disparaging remarks about those in those positions within the club.

Honestly? This just seems like TRS (and yourself it seems now) have taken something personally that I said when there was realistically no reason to because it wasn't aimed at EITHER of you.

I never once claimed to be a medical expert despite both of you continuing to allude to me claiming as much. I think there's a chance that in this particular instance, despite my ADMITTED lack of expertise in the field, some may need to swallow some pride and admit that I may have been right. The club itself is all but admitting it got it wrong by seeing another specialist. We're talking about something that has technically been going on for a year with a diagnosis only officially coming early this year. TRS himself said that if push came to shove, the treatment I suggested is what HE would have gone with!

Not sure how else to interpret that aside from mismanagement. Being pissed about my use of the word "shitty" is arguing semantics. "Shitty", "Mismanaged" whatever. They're all a different way of saying the club got it wrong. Which is all I said to begin with. I never actually said the club doctor's got it wrong. I said THE CLUB got it wrong. There's many ways that can happen. Which is why I also brought up Brisbane, highlighting how the football department can override the medical department.

I fully get what you and TRS are pissed about. I do. I also technically agree with why you're both pissed. I just don't think either of you are right in this case. At this point in this discussion, it seems more about pride now than anything else.
Re the opinion that Elliott may be out for the year. I think everyone agrees with that there is no dispute.

The only thing I am arguing here is we don't know whether the club mismanaged Elliotts injury. TRS and myself say we don't know because we don't have the information in his case or the information and expertise in my case to know.

Of course medical mismanagement exists, its a massive issue, that's not even under discussion here, not sure why you have bought it up.

To succinct the arguemt

TRS and I know we don't know whether Elliotts injury was mismanaged. You don't know that you don't know.

Still when 2 medical professionals tell you they don't know and you don't know you might stop to listen. There is no one so ignorant as the person who doesn't want to learn.
 
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Re the opinion that Elliott may be out for the year. I think everyone agrees with that there is no dispute.

The only thing I am arguing here is we don't know whether the club mismanaged Elliotts injury. TRS and myself say we don't know because we don't have the information in his case or the information and expertise in my case to know.

Of course medical mismanagement exists, its a massive issue, that's not even under discussion here, not sure why you have bought it up.

To succinct the arguemt

TRS and I know we don't know whether Elliotts injury was mismanaged. You don't know that you don't know.

Still when 2 medical professionals tell you they don't know and you don't know you might stop to listen. There is no one so ignorant as the person who doesn't want to learn.

But I DO want to learn. I've said that sooo many times in other topics.

But seriously dude, come ooooon. The information we have in front of us is pretty damn compelling (plus a bit of info I have separately that I shared with TRS in PM). I mean, I'm more than happy to put it all together in one list to make it clearer.

1. Jamie has had back problems for a year or more FACT
2. The pars defect diagnosis apparently came only early this year
3. The commonly accepted method of treatment (even TRS all but admitted to this) is rest. It is to do nothing.
4. Jamie has repeatedly been seen doing the complete opposite of that. The Club itself has said he's been on a modified training program, which sounds to me, like the complete opposite of the commonly accepted treatment
5. The Club is now seeking advice from a secondary specialist to help Jamie get over this injury. Do you generally get a secondary specialist involved if it worked out swimmingly with the first one?

My original post that seemed to rile up TRS was this one.

It's asking the question. There's nothing wrong with the thread title. Read up about the injury, given the shitty, unprofessional way in which the club is managing it, there's every chance we've prematurely ended his career.

Hopefully that's not the case because Elliott is one of the few genuinely classy players we have on the list.

I said THE CLUB has been mismanaging the injury. I didn't take specific aim at the medicos, which is how TRS took it and took offence like I was telling him he's s**t at his job or something. He then told me mentioning BRisbane was pointless when it wasn't. I used those old Brisbane articles to highlight how a football department can override medical staff. But in the end? Medical staff can be wrong too.

The fact that "someone who doesn't know s**t" may be accusing medical staff of being wrong doesn't change whether or not that they are does it?

In the end, all available information more than points at at least SOME kind of mismanagement of Jamie's injury by the club. My lack of knowledge in the field of medicine is irrelevant when basic reading comprehension and taking the club on face value seems to work well enough in this particular case. I mean christ, how often do you see me even get this involved in discussing player injuries in this kind of detail? Never, for the exact reason you're pointing out. But in Jamie's case, I decided to look a bit deeper after hearing that both Pendles and Buckley had this condition and not only did none of us know, it didn't seem to even interrupt their playing careers from the outside looking in.

Pendlebury has been playing for Collingwood for 10 years. So as recently as that, we've had doctor's in place who managed to treat this injury successfully in the recent past yes? Yet it's not working with Jamie. Why is that? Because as TRS said, all players are different and their physiology/make up etc varies so different treatments will respond differently. So clearly with Pendlebury, given we've barely seen him miss more than a few matches the method of resting wasn't required. HE seemed to get over his pars defect without being required to rest for months.

Clearly though, this isn't the way for Jamie. Maybe with Jamie they SHOULD try the months of rest method, given it is the commonly accepted best practice no?
 

The Dawes

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We can't just assume that Elliot's injury has been mismanaged because it appears that he will miss the entire season as none of us possesses all the facts or all the specific knowledge to make that determination.

To assume without the facts or the knowledge is pure guesswork; nothing more, nothing less.
 
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We can't just assume that Elliot's injury has been mismanaged because it appears that he will miss the entire season as none of us possesses all the facts or all the specific knowledge to make that determination.

To assume without the facts or the knowledge is pure guesswork; nothing more, nothing less.

You're right, but we can't assume a lot of things about Collingwood without all the facts, yet we all do so on a daily basis and we do that based on the information we have at hand.
 
But I DO want to learn. I've said that sooo many times in other topics.

But seriously dude, come ooooon. The information we have in front of us is pretty damn compelling (plus a bit of info I have separately that I shared with TRS in PM). I mean, I'm more than happy to put it all together in one list to make it clearer.

1. Jamie has had back problems for a year or more FACT
2. The pars defect diagnosis apparently came only early this year
3. The commonly accepted method of treatment (even TRS all but admitted to this) is rest. It is to do nothing.
4. Jamie has repeatedly been seen doing the complete opposite of that. The Club itself has said he's been on a modified training program, which sounds to me, like the complete opposite of the commonly accepted treatment
5. The Club is now seeking advice from a secondary specialist to help Jamie get over this injury. Do you generally get a secondary specialist involved if it worked out swimmingly with the first one?

My original post that seemed to rile up TRS was this one.



I said THE CLUB has been mismanaging the injury. I didn't take specific aim at the medicos, which is how TRS took it and took offence like I was telling him he's s**t at his job or something. He then told me mentioning BRisbane was pointless when it wasn't. I used those old Brisbane articles to highlight how a football department can override medical staff. But in the end? Medical staff can be wrong too.

The fact that "someone who doesn't know s**t" may be accusing medical staff of being wrong doesn't change whether or not that they are does it?

In the end, all available information more than points at at least SOME kind of mismanagement of Jamie's injury by the club. My lack of knowledge in the field of medicine is irrelevant when basic reading comprehension and taking the club on face value seems to work well enough in this particular case. I mean christ, how often do you see me even get this involved in discussing player injuries in this kind of detail? Never, for the exact reason you're pointing out. But in Jamie's case, I decided to look a bit deeper after hearing that both Pendles and Buckley had this condition and not only did none of us know, it didn't seem to even interrupt their playing careers from the outside looking in.

Pendlebury has been playing for Collingwood for 10 years. So as recently as that, we've had doctor's in place who managed to treat this injury successfully in the recent past yes? Yet it's not working with Jamie. Why is that? Because as TRS said, all players are different and their physiology/make up etc varies so different treatments will respond differently. So clearly with Pendlebury, given we've barely seen him miss more than a few matches the method of resting wasn't required. HE seemed to get over his pars defect without being required to rest for months.

Clearly though, this isn't the way for Jamie. Maybe with Jamie they SHOULD try the months of rest method, given it is the commonly accepted best practice no?


I think the point you are missing is the information we have and you present above isn't compelling. I do have medical expertise and I have read about Pars Defects since Elliott was injured just for my own information. Still just the same I have no idea at all whether Elliott has been mismanaged. I am not taking this personally and I am definitely not setting out to defend medicos.

So if we both have the same information at hand and I say I have no idea whether Elliott has been mismanaged or not, does that at least make you question a little your seemingly strongly held view that he has.
 
Surely both yourself and TRS can at the very least concede that doctor's exist that are bad at their profession? Like in any profession?
Of course! No-brainer.

The club itself is all but admitting it got it wrong by seeing another specialist.
Disagree with that. Specialists are not just specialists in an area of the body, they can be specialists in a particular philosophy (i.e. conservative management vs. surgical) or even a particular surgical procedure for a given area of the body. You want to consult people who have the most knowledge and experience possible.

TRS himself said that if push came to shove, the treatment I suggested is what HE would have gone with!
No, I said if push came to shove I would also have predicted he'd be out for the season.
 
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I think the point you are missing is the information we have and you present above isn't compelling. I do have medical expertise and I have read about Pars Defects since Elliott was injured just for my own information. Still just the same I have no idea at all whether Elliott has been mismanaged. I am not taking this personally and I am definitely not setting out to defend medicos.

So if we both have the same information at hand and I say I have no idea whether Elliott has been mismanaged or not, does that at least make you question a little your seemingly strongly held view that he has.

To an extent I guess. But then maybe that problem steams from my/your and TRS' expectations of the recovery from the injury?

Now THIS is where my lack of knowledge really comes to play. You and The Royal Sampler will obviously have a better idea of what the recovery time will be for such an injury. I don't. I just know that it's been a year and he's still having issues. Bucks and Pendles had the same condition and no one even knew. So in MY less experienced eyes, I see a year as a tipping point where it seems to have been mismanaged. Combined with the club openly stating they're seeking further assistance with it.

This....

I see then that I've failed in my explanation. The setback was not caused by the high-performance team overloading Elliott. The setback was caused by Elliott's (stress) fractured vertebra failing to achieve union.

There are known knowns and known unknowns here; we know (as of this year) that Elliott has a pars defect causing his back pain. Last year this was a known unknown. Now the known unknown is how long Elliott's vertebra will take to heal. Months? Six months? Never?

So the club has allocated Elliott a period of rest; we're not sure how long exactly but some rest and then a graduated return to running, kicking drills, etc. This may not equate to what is considered best practice for a non-athlete but as I have explained elsewhere, elite athletes have access to greater resources and so their rehab can be "optimised" in ways that are impractical for the average Joe.

It's important to remember that many people out there in the community have pars defects and are asymptomatic. So when Elliott returns from his period of rest, we start loading him up and see how he responds. We do not scan him every week to see how his vertebra is healing, because even if the vertebra hasn't united, he may still be symptom free.

It's also important to realise that up to a point, Elliott was symptom free, but the task that caused the "setback" (I am not a fan of the term "setback" here, what we've really done is just find Elliott's current limit before reporting symptoms, it's disappointing but he hasn't been "set back") was a kicking drill. He wasn't being asked to do anything over and above what would be required of him to play a game of football anyway. This is why I disagree that the high-performance department overloaded him, a kicking drill is far from an unreasonable demand to place on Elliott's back.

So now that we've gained some evidence that managed conservatively (i.e. non-surgically) Elliott's vertebra is unlikely to gain enough strength to allow him to play football. He didn't get to the point of contact, tackling, full training or limited game time in the VFL. His back said "enough!" on a kicking drill. If Collingwood's Twitter account is to be believed, we are now seeking the opinion of a new specialist, and I wouldn't be surprised if that is a specialist who advocates surgery in these instances. Time will tell.


See above. Progressively increasing the demands placed on his back, has revealed it wasn't strong enough to stand up to football after being allowed to heal on its own. It wasn't that their advice was working, working, working - then stopped working. More like they built a bridge then saw progressively how many cars they could drive over it at once until it collapsed. Now they know it's not enough cars to meet the demands of the city, they decide whether to change the flow of traffic or build a stronger bridge.

Is the sort of post I would have preferred from TRS initially in response to me as opposed to "you're talking out of your arse" because he took a post personally that was never intended as such.

I've generally had a good relationship with TRS on here up until yesterday where a post of mine obviously triggered in a way others haven't. That's fine in isolation, but not when my post was not only not aimed at him, it wasn't even aimed directly at people in his designated field of study. It was at the Collingwood Football Club.

But the above post is great. I can learn something from that.

No, I said if push came to shove I would also have predicted he'd be out for the season.

Sorry, I misunderstood then. So out of curiosity while we're on the topic, what would YOU have done here? What advice would you have given Jamie/Collingwood?
 
Sorry, I misunderstood then. So out of curiosity while we're on the topic, what would YOU have done here? What advice would you have given Jamie/Collingwood?
No worries. The short answer is I can't answer that question, because I don't know enough about Jamie's history or symptoms.
 

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No worries. The short answer is I can't answer that question, because I don't know enough about Jamie's history or symptoms.

Take a stab dude. We're on a discussion forum, no one is going to hold it against you.
 
To an extent I guess. But then maybe that problem steams from my/your and TRS' expectations of the recovery from the injury?

Now THIS is where my lack of knowledge really comes to play. You and The Royal Sampler will obviously have a better idea of what the recovery time will be for such an injury.

Think this is the point you are missing. I don't profess to have any expectation about how the injury should be recovering. That's the whole point. I don't have a better idea than you a essentially, all I am doing is understanding I don't know
 
Take a stab dude. We're on a discussion forum, no one is going to hold it against you.
That's kinda the whole point. TRS could have a stab at it but would be essentailly meaningless because he doesn't have information on the specifiics. Without it an opinion becomes essentially of no practical worth.
 
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That's kinda the whole point. TRS could have a stab at it but would be essentailly meaningless because he doesn't have information on the specifiics. Without it an opinion becomes essentially of no practical worth.

So should we just stop talking about everything ever and shut down the forum because none of us work at the football club?
 
Disagree with that. Specialists are not just specialists in an area of the body, they can be specialists in a particular philosophy (i.e. conservative management vs. surgical) or even a particular surgical procedure for a given area of the body. You want to consult people who have the most knowledge and experience possible.

.

Further to that 2nd opinions are never a worry. I often ask collegues myself for a 2nd opinion about a difficult management problem. It can be obtained from someone as TRS says who has a different skillset within the same speciality or just because its good to get another view of a problem from someone who has the same skillset.

That in no way implies medical mismanagement. Its usually the opposite, a wise use of expertise.
 
So should we just stop talking about everything ever and shut down the forum because none of us work at the football club?
No we can have plenty of legit opinions on footy and many other matters, its just in this case we cant know.
 

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Take a stab dude. We're on a discussion forum, no one is going to hold it against you.

we can all discuss various issues on this forum re the pies - form, player's ability, the coach, game plan etc because we all have the opportunity to see them play, train and form our opinions based on this opportunity - where it gets tricky is discussing injury management because we simply aren't privy to what happens between the player and the medicos - therefore all we can do is speculate. You can't talk specifically, only in generalities.

Discussions are almost rendered meaningless on this topic because we just don't know.
 
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we can all discuss various issues on this forum re the pies - form, player's ability, the coach, game plan etc because we all have the opportunity to see them play, train and form our opinions based on this opportunity - where it gets tricky is discussing injury management because we simply aren't privy to what happens between the player and the medicos - therefore all we can do is speculate. You can't talk specifically, only in generalities.

Discussions are almost rendered meaningless on this topic because we just don't know.

Sorry, don't buy it. Same goes for all other topics.

This whole board is of the opinion that Sinclair sucks and shouldn't be playing games. A small handful of us are of the opposite opinion despite what the stats say. But obviously, Nathan Buckley is playing him despite popular opinion. But ultimately, none of us KNOW what measure Bucks is using to justify his selection.

We're all merely speculating. See?
 

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This has been an interesting discussion and one that highlights a bit of a frustration I have had of recent times. Probably not hard to guess but I am going into bat for TRS here. Here is a poster who has more practical and intellectual knowledge of this area than anyone else on our board. He is clearly stating that on the information available to us and with the medical knowledge most on this board have there is no way of saying whether Elliott's par defect has been expertly managed or mismanaged. It a question we can't answer. The same rule applies to most of the medical and fitness management at the Collingwood FC. We just don't have the inside knowledge or expertise to answer this question. Seems to me when TRS says that anyone else on the board should perhaps sit back and assess whether their previously strongly held beliefs are valid.

Just want to tell a little story to try and flesh out why some posters should review their position. I have been working as a doctor for over 30 years now. Started as a medical student in 1980 and graduated in 1985. 6 years of cramming all sorts of medical knowledge into my head. Pre clinical years of anatomy, physiology, pathology etc etc. Clinical years , hours and hours of study of all sorts of disease processes and information. Came out a newly qualified quack at the start of 1986. I had a mass of knowledge in my head. 6 years worth.

Remember clearly my 1st week on the job. Got called to the ward by a nurse who had a problem with a surgical patient with a fever. I raced up there with all the knowledge I could muster. I stammered around for a while going through lists of problems in my mind. What should I do here? Fortunately the nurse, who I know was laughing to herself, put me out of my misery.

All she wanted, as she told me , was for me to write a panadol order on the drug chart. The last thing she wanted me to do was to make any type of decision about what should be done with her patient. She knew, and I soon learned, that I had a lot of knowledge but I knew nothing. It was of great relief to me. I soon realised I could do some paper work and clerking while I started to learn how to be a doctor. I worked for 2 years and then began working and studying for another 7 years to become a specialist. And the further I went the more learnt about the things I didn't know. I learnt more about the nuances of my profession, the variations and things that I couldn't learn just from reading a book or journal. I realised there was always more to learn and understand and that each day these things learned added to my craft.

So here I sit with all that medical knowledge but very little of it directed towards management of football injuries. Still that knowledge allows me to know that when TRS says we can have no idea about how good the management of Elliott's injury has been he is correct. I know it because I deal with medical issues everyday and I know what it takes in general terms to make such a judgement. I also know based on my working experience even though I have knowledge I know nothing about managing a pars defect.

Still I see Shepshal Ed say he has googled articles and read things so he knows Collingwood have managed Elliott "shittily". Ed, TRS tried to explain to you in pretty nice terms that you know nothing. Dr Google just doesn't allow you to understand the nuances of the management of a pars defect and you don't have any real knowledge about his management anyway. Eat some humble pie and understand when a qualified physio who works in the area explains to you why you can't make the judgements you are making they have a bank of knowledge but more importantly "know" the field in a way you can't just by getting into Google. One of the things that you learn as you get experience in any field is what you don't know. It informs all the decisions you make. When TRS tells you you don't know think why that may be.


Sorry for the rant.

i read the early part of your post. I drifted off after a while but it did cross my mind that you should offer your services to the club....you appear to have been a "natural" from the first moment of starting your career. I think our current medical staff could use learn a trick or two from yourself.
 

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