Could NAS be the best indigenous player ever?

[Spook]

For those who never saw Stephen Michael play, not only was he the best player to never move to the VFL but also easily top 5 aboriginal players ever.
Just because he never played VFL, he still played state of origin and played 17 state games. So we could judge him against the very best the game had to offer.
In 1983 he was best on ground in both games vs SA and Vic. He was also named captain of the All Australian Team.

1983 Australian Football Championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I think Farmer, Buddy and Goodes are probably at the top of the tree. He’s a very, very long way behind them currently.

To put it into perspective, NAS is now 23. By age 21, Buddy Franklin had already kicked 100 goals in a season (first player in eons to do so), won a B&F in a flag team, finished an unlucky runner up to peak Ablett Jnr in the MVP and was EASILY the best key position player in the game (with 250+ goals to his name already). That's at 2 years younger than NAS is now.

In other words, he is already well, well behind on career to date and those players (Franklin, Goodes, etc) continued to be superstars for well over a decade after this point in their career. It would take something truly extraordinary for NAS to catch them (he'd essentially need to become the obvious best player in the league overnight and maintain that for about a decade to even enter the conversation).

(I think top 10 might be a more realistic goal)

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

For St Kilda its a yes, he can. Winmar is the only one ahead of him.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

To put it into perspective, here is an approximate top 10:

1. L. Franklin
2. A. Goodes
3. G. Farmer
4. S. Michael
5. A. McLeod
6. B. Cable
7. P. Matera
8. G. Wanganeen
9. M. Rioli
10. E. Betts

Unlucky: C. Rioli, N. Winmar, M. Long, S. Burgoyne, S. Jackson, J. Krakouer, J. Farmer, C. Johnson, P. Krakouer, S. May, etc, etc. Not sure if Wayne Carey counts also?

Still a long, long way to go to get into that top 10, let alone No 1.

 

[Spook]

To put it into perspective, NAS is now 23. By age 21, Buddy Franklin had already kicked 100 goals in a season (first player in eons to do so), won a B&F in a flag team, finished an unlucky runner up to peak Ablett Jnr in the MVP and was EASILY the best key position player in the game (with 250+ goals to his name already). That's at 2 years younger than NAS is now.

In other words, he is already well, well behind on career to date and those players (Franklin, Goodes, etc) continued to be superstars for well over a decade after this point in their career. It would take something truly extraordinary for NAS to catch them (he'd essentially need to become the obvious best player in the league overnight and maintain that for about a decade to even enter the conversation).

(I think top 10 might be a more realistic goal)

Now that is putting it in perspective. Well said.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Most comparable player in the above list is probably Andrew McLeod

Andrew Mcleod

Age

49

Ht

181cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.8

5star

K

13.1

5star

HB

6.7

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.2

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

1.0

1star

T

1.6

4star

.

McLeod played 226 games across half back and midfield with silky skills and high impact. He won 2 Norm Smiths, 3 best and fairests, 5 All Australians, an MVP and 2 flags.

At the age NAS is now, he already had 2 flags, 2 Norms, 2 AA's and a B&F.

I reckon NAS could potentially match McLeod, though he has some catching up to do.

 

[DangerSloane]

Please.

When he racks up 400+ games and 4 Premierships from 35 finals appearances like Silk, then we'll talk.

Silk isnt in the top 5 indigenous players.
As much respect as he deserves, he would admit that himself. Longevity isnt necessarily quality.

 

[Freomaniac]

Please.

When he racks up 400+ games and 4 Premierships from 35 finals appearances like Silk, then we'll talk.

Regardless of race or background or being Indigenous or Non Indigenous, Shaun Silk Burgoyne 400 games has been good. 35 finals and 4 premierships is lovely to look back on.

 

[Freomaniac]

Silk isnt in the top 5 indigenous players.
As much respect as he deserves, he would admit that himself. Longevity isnt necessarily quality.

If Shaun Silk Burgoyne isn't in the top 5, he is in the top 10

 

[Romeoh1]

Great footballer and I really enjoy watching him. I look forward to watching him for many years.

 

[DangerSloane]

If Shaun Silk Burgoyne isn't in the top 5, he is in the top 10

I cant have him ahead of Buddy, Goodes, McLeod, Polly Farmer, Wanganeen.

But yes I would be certain id find a place for him in the next 5.

I think Peter Burgoyne was the better footballer in the family but didnt play for the same amount of time or in the successful team that Shaun did.

 

[Freomaniac]

I cant have him ahead of Buddy, Goodes, McLeod, Polly Farmer, Wanganeen.

But yes I would be certain id find a place for him in the next 5.

I think Peter Burgoyne was the better footballer in the family but didnt play for the same amount of time or in the successful team that Shaun did.

Fair enough. I know you would put Andrew McCloud on the upper tier.

Where would you rank Graham Johncock?

 

[DangerSloane]

Fair enough. I know you would put Andrew McCloud on the upper tier.

Where would you rank Graham Johncock?

Loved stiffy as a player but hes a couple of tiers below the top echelon.

That next 20 after the top 5 gets very crowded, Matera, Riolis, Burgoynes, Betts, Long, Winmar, Krakoers and many more I've forgotten or before my time.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I cant have him ahead of Buddy, Goodes, McLeod, Polly Farmer, Wanganeen.

But yes I would be certain id find a place for him in the next 5.

I think Peter Burgoyne was the better footballer in the family but didnt play for the same amount of time or in the successful team that Shaun did.

This was my attempt at a top 10 from a few posts up...

1. L. Franklin
2. A. Goodes
3. G. Farmer
4. S. Michael
5. A. McLeod
6. B. Cable
7. P. Matera
8. G. Wanganeen
9. M. Rioli
10. E. Betts

Unlucky: C. Rioli, N. Winmar, M. Long, S. Burgoyne, S. Jackson, J. Krakouer, J. Farmer, C. Johnson, P. Krakouer, S. May, etc, etc. Not sure if Wayne Carey counts also?

I absolutely loved Silk as a player but it's a pretty hard top 10 to break into...

 

[Cyclops]

Polly Farmer anyone?
Arguably ahead of Goodes

Zero argument from all i have been told, Polly is in the mix for absolute GOAT.

Goodes a superb versatile atar of the game, but not within a bulls roar of Polly.

Buddy superb, years and years at the top. Better than Goodes? Definitely worried me more.

I know Cable is a scumbag person, can we talk about his footy?

Silk isnt in the top 5 indigenous players.
As much respect as he deserves, he would admit that himself. Longevity isnt necessarily quality.

A counter argument would be there has to be a mix, or Fred Fanning is the GOAT full forward.

Burgoyne was flashy and inconsistent at first but built into such a lethal team player.

I wish we had a generally accepted measure, like a journalist free AA panel.

 

[iameviljez]

If Shaun Silk Burgoyne isn't in the top 5, he is in the top 10

To put it into perspective, here is an approximate top 10:

1. L. Franklin
2. A. Goodes
3. G. Farmer
4. S. Michael
5. A. McLeod
6. B. Cable
7. P. Matera
8. G. Wanganeen
9. M. Rioli
10. E. Betts

Unlucky: C. Rioli, N. Winmar, M. Long, S. Burgoyne, S. Jackson, J. Krakouer, J. Farmer, C. Johnson, P. Krakouer, S. May, etc, etc. Not sure if Wayne Carey counts also?

Still a long, long way to go to get into that top 10, let alone No 1.

I would probably put him ahead of Wanganeen, to be honest. Winning a Brownlow in a very even year elevated Wanganeen slightly beyond his status.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Silk isnt in the top 5 indigenous players.
As much respect as he deserves, he would admit that himself. Longevity isnt necessarily quality.

I have him at 5 in my time watching the game.

Goodes
Franklin
Mcleod
Wanganeen
S.Burgoyne

My point being, until Nas reaches that level, he's not in the convo imo.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I would probably put him ahead of Wanganeen, to be honest. Winning a Brownlow in a very even year elevated Wanganeen slightly beyond his status.

Fair enough. It was an even year and a low tally. He did win All Australian honours 5 times though (and was 1 vote off another Brownlow 10 years later). Deservedly raised as a back pocket option in most iterations of a 'Team of the 21st Century".

 

[DangerSloane]

I have him at 5 in my time watching the game.

Goodes
Franklin
Mcleod
Wanganeen
S.Burgoyne

My point being, until Nas reaches that level, he's not in the convo imo.

Nas has a long way to go to reach the heights of those players.
I do think he has the skillset to do it though, but does he have what it takes upstairs to play for 350 odd games a high level?

 

[masai tu]

Polly Farmer anyone?
Arguably ahead of Goodes

Not an argument required.

Polly is numero uno.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Too young to see Polly Farmer play, so have always been curious as to exactly why he's regarded as the best?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I think Peter Burgoyne was the better footballer in the family...

I've heard this said before - mostly by Port supporters - and I'm just not sure it is accurate. The argument is that Port supports saw both play at their club and that Peter was the better player. The thing is, Peter was a number of years older than Shaun (debuting 5 years earlier) so much of their mutual time at Port Adelaide was with Peter at his peak and Shaun as a young, developing player. Of course during that phase of their careers, Peter was the better player. The argument then goes that Shaun's best football was at Port (2006) and therefore it is fair to assume that a comparison of their time at Port is enough to judge Peter as the better player. The problem with this argument is that whilst it is true that Shaun's best season was at Port (which was the best season by either player), 8 of Shaun's best 10 seasons were all at Hawthorn.

When making the comparison, Port supporters seem to forget that Shaun only spent around a third of his career at Port and that his time at Hawthorn was longer than Peter's entire career. Any close analysis backs up that Shaun not only has the longevity but also had a higher peak and more elite seasons.

Shaun is the only one of the two to make the All Australian side. Whilst coaches votes wasn't a thing early in Peter's career, his highest season tally was 33 coaches votes. Shaun received 79 one year, 46 another year, etc. Peter's career high Brownlow tally was 10 votes. Shaun went 15+ multiple times. Shaun also made the AA squad multiple extra times (not a thing in Peter's time). People seem to say of Shaun 'just longevity and part of a successful side' but I think that is underselling it. Shaun was the 'go to' guy in tight finals to get us over the line time and time again. He wasn't just an 'old' passenger racking up the games in a good side - multiple years he was the player that dragged us across the line in Prelims, etc - there would be absolutely no threepeat without him. In fact, he was clearly a top 5 player in one of the greatest sides of all time and finished top 6 in the B&F in every one of the threepeat flag years (and made the AA squad in 2 of the 3). Longevity in and of itself doesn't trump a player if they were clearly better but if two players were relatively even in quality, playing nearly twice as many games should count for a hell of a lot, especially when the player with the much longer career also had a higher peak and sustained a very high level throughout the 400+ games.

 

[DangerSloane]

Also why was he ca

I've heard this said before - mostly by Port supporters - and I'm just not sure it is accurate. The argument is that Port supports saw both play at their club and that Peter was the better player. The thing is, Peter was a number of years older than Shaun (debuting 5 years earlier) so much of their mutual time at Port Adelaide was with Peter at his peak and Shaun as a young, developing player. Of course during that phase of their careers, Peter was the better player. The argument then goes that Shaun's best football was at Port (2006) and therefore it is fair to assume that a comparison of their time at Port is enough to judge Peter as the better player. The problem with this argument is that whilst it is true that Shaun's best season was at Port (which was the best season by either player), 8 of Shaun's best 10 seasons were all at Hawthorn.

When making the comparison, Port supporters seem to forget that Shaun only spent around a third of his career at Port and that his time at Hawthorn was longer than Peter's entire career. Any close analysis backs up that Shaun not only has the longevity but also had a higher peak and more elite seasons.

Shaun is the only one of the two to make the All Australian side. Whilst coaches votes wasn't a thing early in Peter's career, his highest season tally was 33 coaches votes. Shaun received 79 one year, 46 another year, etc. Peter's career high Brownlow tally was 10 votes. Shaun went 15+ multiple times. Shaun also made the AA squad multiple extra times (not a thing in Peter's time). People seem to say of Shaun 'just longevity and part of a successful side' but I think that is underselling it. Shaun was the 'go to' guy in tight finals to get us over the line time and time again. He wasn't just an 'old' passenger racking up the games in a good side - multiple years he was the player that dragged us across the line in Prelims, etc - there would be absolutely no threepeat without him. In fact, he was clearly a top 5 player in one of the greatest sides of all time and finished top 6 in the B&F in every one of the threepeat flag years (and made the AA squad in 2 of the 3). Longevity in and of itself doesn't trump a player if they were clearly better but if two players were relatively even in quality, playing nearly twice as many games should count for a hell of a lot, especially when the player with the much longer career also had a higher peak and sustained a very high level throughout the 400+ games.

Well I'm as far from a Port supporter as you can get, but as I mentioned in the previous post Peter suffered from playing outside Melbourne, for a largely average team. His first few years there was no Port AFL team so one could argue he started a few years behind in development compared with Shaun. Still went on to play 270 games which is nothing to sneeze at. He also started in the days where if you started on the bench you could be there for over half the game.

It's not an argument worth having but Peter's ceiling was higher in my opinion purely due to his game breaking ability. The votes thing is very dependent on the team you're in. If your team wins more games, you're going to get more coaches votes and Brownlow votes no matter what.

The thing with Silk is he was ultra consistent after his first few years, did anything and everything a team or coach would ask of him and stood up in the big moments.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Also why was he ca


Well I'm as far from a Port supporter as you can get, but as I mentioned in the previous post Peter suffered from playing outside Melbourne, for a largely average team. His first few years there was no Port AFL team so one could argue he started a few years behind in development compared with Shaun. Still went on to play 270 games which is nothing to sneeze at. He also started in the days where if you started on the bench you could be there for over half the game.

It's not an argument worth having but Peter's ceiling was higher in my opinion purely due to his game breaking ability. The votes thing is very dependent on the team you're in. If your team wins more games, you're going to get more coaches votes and Brownlow votes no matter what.

The thing with Silk is he was ultra consistent after his first few years, did anything and everything a team or coach would ask of him and stood up in the big moments.

A few corrections if I may - Peter was drafted as a foundation Port selection at 18 years old. His first season on the list (as an 18 year old turning 19) was Port's first season in the AFL - he didn't miss any top flight footy and actually debuted in the AFL younger than Shaun did (the confusion comes from the fact he played some SANFL as a pre-draft junior in 1996). He also played 240 AFL games - you can't count games where he was dropped from the AFL side back to the SANFL (or his handful of pre-draft games) in his tally.

As for the votes thing you mentioned, that actually comes from when both were in the same side. Shaun's AA season, his 79 (and 46) coaches vote seasons and his 2 15+ Brownlow vote seasons were all at Port, playing alongside his brother (so team strength can't be the reason, especially given Port were a force in the early 2000's during Peter's peak). In Fact, you mention that Port were largely average so Peter gets less recognition but Peter's peak (like most players) were ages 24-30. In that time, Port finished 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st, won the flag, 8th, missed finals then made the Grand Final. Port were one of the dominant sides of that era and their players were highly regarded and awarded - Tredrea, the Cornes brothers, etc all won swathes of AA's.

Agree to disagree on the superior 'game breaking' ability. Shaun was Hawthorn's 'break glass in case of emergency' type player, where we would deploy him wherever was needed for a quarter to win us high pressure games and finals. Down by 20 in the last in a Prelim? - send Shaun to the midfield to win us the game - and much more often than not, he did. In fact, I would probably argue the best player in the threepeat side for 'game breaking' ability.

 

[00Stinger]

Are we still pretending that Nas is as good as Kossie?