Analysis Could the form of our current generation of leaders be a reaction to the club's cutthroat list management?

[A Cut Above]

Guys like Stratton, Smith, Bruest, Gunston, & Shiels were expected to take over the reins and be our next generation of leaders, but I can't help feel their largely-underwhelming form over the past two years might have partially stemmed from the club questionably parting ways with Mitchell, Lewis & Hodge, and having Roughy play out his career in the reserves.

I'm not suggesting those calls were the wrong ones, the list needed and still needs renewing and such brutal calls were the most expedient way of achieving it. However they created an obvious leadership void and those expected to fill it might now be wondering if busting a gut is worth it if the club is likely to treat them in a similarly heartless manner.

Obviously this is not something unique to Hawthorn when you look at say Boomer Harvey being let go by Norf when he was still among their top 10 players. My concern is that teams live or die by their culture, and making such harsh calls on a routine basis doesn't breed above-and-beyond loyalty, and may even encourage selfishness if veterans are more concerned with playing for their careers fearing the club will give them no leeway if their performances drop off slightly.

 

[TAITA]

No.

 

[Noneedforaname]

Could be tears over who was, and who wasn't made captain.

Could be sick of hearing Clarkos voice.

Could be complacent.

Could just be not very good leaders.

Could be people cracking the shits because we value end of season shopping over developing and rewarding our own.

Could be dozens of reasons, for each and every player on the list.

Amongst it thougjh, I wouldn't doubt the effect of what you suggest. Players would likely understand the reasons for it., and even agree, yet subconsciously feel aggrieved. That's balanced by the loyalty to Rough, Birch and even the way the Cyril situation was handled.
Professional, not callous like some might suggest.

 

[Hawk_francais]

No, I don't think so. We've had a change of captain and hiccups are normal. We've grown accustomed to smooth sailing

 

[Jaeger]

They were all pretty good last year, weren't they?

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Breust - forward pocket
Gunston - half forward
Smith - Wing
Puopolo - forward pocket
Stratton - small/mid defender.

I'm old fashioned in that I think leadership goes hand in hand with how much you can influence a game.
Compare to the guys that we moved on/on the slide:
Hodge - 'quarterback' set up play and organised
Mitchell - midfielder, always got 30 touches and brought others into the game
Roughy - key forward, could comfortably kick 4 or 5 if let off the chain. Rolled through the centre square for some extra drive.
Lewis - midfielder, used around the place wherever we needed class, but was an inside mid
Burgoyne - anywhere. Centre square game breaker

In fact - of the the crop of senior players Shiels is the only one really standing up.
The other guys standing up:
Worpel
Sicily (has dropped off last couple of games)
McEvoy
O'Meara for the first 4-6 games.
Worpel
Note how they lift regardless of whether we're winning or losing. They tend to win their position most weeks (except Worps, but I can't fault him)

Leadership is many things - and I've really oversimplified it here - but sometimes the simplest answer is the best. It's damn hard to lift a team from the edges.

Look at the captains of the other clubs:
Adelaide - Walker CHF and mifielder Sloane
Brisbane - Zorko - midfielder
Carlton - Cripps - midfielder
Collingwood - Pendlebury - midfielder
Fremantle - Fyfe - midfielder
Geelong - Selwood - midfielder (more outside now)
Gold Coast - David Swallow (midfielder) Witts (ruck)
GWS - Callan Ward (mid) David (Full Back)
Hawthorn - Ben Stratton - back pocket ?????
Melbourne - Nathan Jones - midfielder
North - Ziebell - midfielder/forward flanker
Richmond - Cotchin - midfielder
Saint Kilda - Geary - back pocket
Sydney - Kennedy and Parker (midfielders) (And Dane Rampe but he's been a disaster - back pocket)
Western Bulldogs - Easton Wood - CHB
West Coast - Hurn - CHB.

There's only two clubs who picked a back pocket and the one that isn't hawthorn is one of the worst ******* clubs of all time, of any sport.
Sure - we don't have to fall into group think but there's a reason why most clubs automatically pick a key playmaker, someone who is involved inthe play most of the time, as captain.

Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy, Shiels, Gunston are the guys that can really lift us or save us in a game. And they all do it with work ethic, not flashes of brilliance. What how much better we are when these guys are on the park together (and fit!) and the players around the edges can have that core to work off.

 

[amofootyfan]

Breust - forward pocket
Gunston - half forward
Smith - Wing
Puopolo - forward pocket
Stratton - small/mid defender.

I'm old fashioned in that I think leadership goes hand in hand with how much you can influence a game.
Compare to the guys that we moved on/on the slide:
Hodge - 'quarterback' set up play and organised
Mitchell - midfielder, always got 30 touches and brought others into the game
Roughy - key forward, could comfortably kick 4 or 5 if let off the chain. Rolled through the centre square for some extra drive.
Lewis - midfielder, used around the place wherever we needed class, but was an inside mid
Burgoyne - anywhere. Centre square game breaker

In fact - of the the crop of senior players Shiels is the only one really standing up.
The other guys standing up:
Worpel
Sicily (has dropped off last couple of games)
McEvoy
O'Meara for the first 4-6 games.
Worpel
Note how they lift regardless of whether we're winning or losing. They tend to win their position most weeks (except Worps, but I can't fault him)

Leadership is many things - and I've really oversimplified it here - but sometimes the simplest answer is the best. It's damn hard to lift a team from the edges.

Look at the captains of the other clubs:
Adelaide - Walker CHF and mifielder Sloane
Brisbane - Zorko - midfielder
Carlton - Cripps - midfielder
Collingwood - Pendlebury - midfielder
Fremantle - Fyfe - midfielder
Geelong - Selwood - midfielder (more outside now)
Gold Coast - David Swallow (midfielder) Witts (ruck)
GWS - Callan Ward (mid) David (Full Back)
Hawthorn - Ben Stratton - back pocket ?????
Melbourne - Nathan Jones - midfielder
North - Ziebell - midfielder/forward flanker
Richmond - Cotchin - midfielder
Saint Kilda - Geary - back pocket
Sydney - Kennedy and Parker (midfielders) (And Dane Rampe but he's been a disaster - back pocket)
Western Bulldogs - Easton Wood - CHB
West Coast - Hurn - CHB.

There's only two clubs who picked a back pocket and the one that isn't hawthorn is one of the worst ******* clubs of all time, of any sport.
Sure - we don't have to fall into group think but there's a reason why most clubs automatically pick a key playmaker, someone who is involved inthe play most of the time, as captain.

Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy, Shiels, Gunston are the guys that can really lift us or save us in a game. And they all do it with work ethic, not flashes of brilliance. What how much better we are when these guys are on the park together (and fit!) and the players around the edges can have that core to work off.

Leather
I assume from your knowledge and posts you are my age or older and have seen Hawks at their best. Just to be clear im a hawk from 1983.
We made top 4 last year and went out in straight sets which started some alarms for me, even though we had Tom
We lose Tom pre-season and our weakness is now amplified.
We were up and lost to Saints, Demons, Dogs, Lions i first half season
We have 55 inside 50s against bombers in first half with 0 marks.

i fear the 2nd half of the season
My 15 year old has not seen us win this year
BUT i told her. we are the most succesful club since 1970 and we will be again

GO HAwkS

 

[Dewnior]

There's only two clubs who picked a back pocket and the one that isn't hawthorn is one of the worst ******* clubs of all time, of any sport.

Actually, there's another club with a captain who plays in the back pocket and has done so for years. And he just happens to be the reigning premiership captain.

Where a captain plays on the field is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is his ability to inspire the team to do great things.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Leather
I assume from your knowledge and posts you are my age or older and have seen Hawks at their best. Just to be clear im a hawk from 1983.
We made top 4 last year and went out in straight sets which started some alarms for me, even though we had Tom
We lose Tom pre-season and our weakness is now amplified.
We were up and lost to Saints, Demons, Dogs, Lions i first half season
We have 55 inside 50s against bombers in first half with 0 marks.

i fear the 2nd half of the season
My 15 year old has not seen us win this year
BUT i told her. we are the most succesful club since 1970 and we will be again

GO HAwkS

I was born in 83, so yep, I'm used to us winning.

Clarkson has always tried to build teams that don't have a single point of failure. When Buddy was the best forward in the lead and kicked 100 goals he moved him to a HFF and changed the gameplan completely.

Last year - Tom Mitchell had a brilliant season - but we clearly relied on him way too much. It's clear as day right now. Doesn't help that Wingard hasn't fired a shot either as Wingas has the talent and ability to lift our midfield output significantly.

The stats you highlight show a team devoid of confidence. Leaders, when low on confidence - go hard at the basics and try to make those around them better. Those who aren't naturally leaders go hard at making sure they're 'doing the right thing' and 'not stuffing up'. I think we're seeing a lot of that second set at the moment.

Impey is showing great signs of onfield leadership. Attacks the footy so hard, tackles hard, takes the game on. Sicily does it too. I don't care if he shanks some kicks or gets caught HTB a few times because he's CREATING and trying something to break the game open.

We'll get there - but we're not there. Consolidation year this year. We've seen a few of these in our time.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Actually, there's another club with a captain who plays in the back pocket and has done so for years. And he just happens to be the reigning premiership captain.

Where a captain plays on the field is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is his ability to inspire the team to do great things.

Hurn might be written as back pocket on the team sheet, but he's getting 25 touches a game that set up scoring runs. He does that in hand with all the dour hard defensive acts you'd expect of a leader. Massive inspiration - you're right about that.

 

[Dewnior]

Hurn might be written as back pocket on the team sheet, but he's getting 25 touches a game that set up scoring runs. He does that in hand with all the dour hard defensive acts you'd expect of a leader. Massive inspiration - you're right about that.

But that's my point. You can't criticise Stratton for playing the role of a small defensive lockdown defender while wearing the captain's badge, but you can criticise him for how well he plays that role and the influence it has on others.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

But that's my point. You can't criticise Stratton for playing the role of a small defensive lockdown defender while wearing the captain's badge, but you can criticise him for how well he plays that role and the influence it has on others.

I'm saying that even if you play a lock down defender role perfectly (or forward pocket, or wingman) - the chances you lifting the team and turning momentum when the chips are down are extremely low.

 

[amofootyfan]

Love the passion from Leather and Dew
We are a very different hawthorn team since 1983. But we know post 1991 we had some raw years. I was lucky enough to see 83, 86, 88, 89, 01, 08, 13,14,15.
Between 01 and 08 we had some bad years, Then it took 5 years to win another in 2013
So stay fat everyone

 

[big_rig]

I think people are underrating how good the crop that just left was. There seems to be an assumption that the younger guys would "step up". I'm not disagreeing that they could step up more than they have - but where do we expect them to step up to? The three-peat Hawks are one of the best teams ...ever. Those guys were some of the best leaders ever.

 

[Dewnior]

I'm saying that even if you play a lock down defender role perfectly (or forward pocket, or wingman) - the chances you lifting the team and turning momentum when the chips are down are extremely low.

Thats why there is a leadership team because it's not just the captain's responsibility to lift the team and turn momentum. Unfortunately, most of the current leaders are also having poor seasons.

Having said that, the lockdown defender role is not the only role Stratton plays. He also plays the extra defender / 3rd up spoiler role which Hodgey played while he was captain.

 

[Gralin]

Breust - forward pocket
Gunston - half forward
Smith - Wing
Puopolo - forward pocket
Stratton - small/mid defender.

I'm old fashioned in that I think leadership goes hand in hand with how much you can influence a game.
Compare to the guys that we moved on/on the slide:
Hodge - 'quarterback' set up play and organised
Mitchell - midfielder, always got 30 touches and brought others into the game
Roughy - key forward, could comfortably kick 4 or 5 if let off the chain. Rolled through the centre square for some extra drive.
Lewis - midfielder, used around the place wherever we needed class, but was an inside mid
Burgoyne - anywhere. Centre square game breaker

In fact - of the the crop of senior players Shiels is the only one really standing up.
The other guys standing up:
Worpel
Sicily (has dropped off last couple of games)
McEvoy
O'Meara for the first 4-6 games.
Worpel
Note how they lift regardless of whether we're winning or losing. They tend to win their position most weeks (except Worps, but I can't fault him)

Leadership is many things - and I've really oversimplified it here - but sometimes the simplest answer is the best. It's damn hard to lift a team from the edges.

Look at the captains of the other clubs:
Adelaide - Walker CHF and mifielder Sloane
Brisbane - Zorko - midfielder
Carlton - Cripps - midfielder
Collingwood - Pendlebury - midfielder
Fremantle - Fyfe - midfielder
Geelong - Selwood - midfielder (more outside now)
Gold Coast - David Swallow (midfielder) Witts (ruck)
GWS - Callan Ward (mid) David (Full Back)
Hawthorn - Ben Stratton - back pocket ?????
Melbourne - Nathan Jones - midfielder
North - Ziebell - midfielder/forward flanker
Richmond - Cotchin - midfielder
Saint Kilda - Geary - back pocket
Sydney - Kennedy and Parker (midfielders) (And Dane Rampe but he's been a disaster - back pocket)
Western Bulldogs - Easton Wood - CHB
West Coast - Hurn - CHB.

There's only two clubs who picked a back pocket and the one that isn't hawthorn is one of the worst ******* clubs of all time, of any sport.
Sure - we don't have to fall into group think but there's a reason why most clubs automatically pick a key playmaker, someone who is involved inthe play most of the time, as captain.

Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy, Shiels, Gunston are the guys that can really lift us or save us in a game. And they all do it with work ethic, not flashes of brilliance. What how much better we are when these guys are on the park together (and fit!) and the players around the edges can have that core to work off.

That's not our leadership group
This is
HAWTHORN
Ben Stratton — Captain - Defender
Jack Gunston — Vice-Captain - Forward/Utility
Liam Shiels - Mid
Isaac Smith - Mid
Ben McEvoy - Ruck
Jaeger O’Meara - Mid

 

[Davo-27]

1980's-early 90's Ayres, Tuck, Dipper, Dunstall, Brereton ect
mid/late 90's-early 2000's Crawf and Vanders (very little success)
drafted leaders in Hodge and Sam Mitchell(2001) and a few years later Rough, Buddy and Lewis(2004)

right now Rough is the only leader of value we have left but he has reached the end of his career and we need to draft leaders for the next generation of Hawthorn Premiers.

for me this is another problem that has stemmed from us ignoring the draft for too long, mercenaries dont make good leaders usually.

 

[hawkermitch]

1980's-early 90's Ayres, Tuck, Dipper, Dunstall, Brereton ect
mid/late 90's-early 2000's Crawf and Vanders (very little success)
drafted leaders in Hodge and Sam Mitchell(2001) and a few years later Rough, Buddy and Lewis(2004)

right now Rough is the only leader of value we have left but he has reached the end of his career and we need to draft leaders for the next generation of Hawthorn Premiers.

for me this is another problem that has stemmed from us ignoring the draft for too long, mercenaries dont make good leaders usually.

Davo - Good points made on the current and past condition of the side.
How I wish for a Lethal type to one day be in the side again.
Conan - Ayres was an inspiration player, loved when he went into the midfield.
Crawf - a great player with little help, I'd take a time like him in the current and future sides.

I know this year there is minimal hope of finals action, need to go to the draft this year, get 2 x 1st round players,
a FA of two and then there is Scotty's son Finn Maginness and then who knows.

Loved going to the grand finals as a teen; at that time I thought we'd played Grand Finals each and it happened from 83-89.
Then a Grand Final win at our current home VFL Park in 1991, the only one played there and we'll be leaving it when Dingley is ready.
A huge dry spell from then to 2008, felt like a lifetime, now it's time to wait since the 3 peat, can never keen the hawks down long term.

I am hopeful the side will be great again.

 

[threesixpio]

Breust - forward pocket
Gunston - half forward
Smith - Wing
Puopolo - forward pocket
Stratton - small/mid defender.

I'm old fashioned in that I think leadership goes hand in hand with how much you can influence a game.
Compare to the guys that we moved on/on the slide:
Hodge - 'quarterback' set up play and organised
Mitchell - midfielder, always got 30 touches and brought others into the game
Roughy - key forward, could comfortably kick 4 or 5 if let off the chain. Rolled through the centre square for some extra drive.
Lewis - midfielder, used around the place wherever we needed class, but was an inside mid
Burgoyne - anywhere. Centre square game breaker

In fact - of the the crop of senior players Shiels is the only one really standing up.
The other guys standing up:
Worpel
Sicily (has dropped off last couple of games)
McEvoy
O'Meara for the first 4-6 games.
Worpel
Note how they lift regardless of whether we're winning or losing. They tend to win their position most weeks (except Worps, but I can't fault him)

Leadership is many things - and I've really oversimplified it here - but sometimes the simplest answer is the best. It's damn hard to lift a team from the edges.

Look at the captains of the other clubs:
Adelaide - Walker CHF and mifielder Sloane
Brisbane - Zorko - midfielder
Carlton - Cripps - midfielder
Collingwood - Pendlebury - midfielder
Fremantle - Fyfe - midfielder
Geelong - Selwood - midfielder (more outside now)
Gold Coast - David Swallow (midfielder) Witts (ruck)
GWS - Callan Ward (mid) David (Full Back)
Hawthorn - Ben Stratton - back pocket ?????
Melbourne - Nathan Jones - midfielder
North - Ziebell - midfielder/forward flanker
Richmond - Cotchin - midfielder
Saint Kilda - Geary - back pocket
Sydney - Kennedy and Parker (midfielders) (And Dane Rampe but he's been a disaster - back pocket)
Western Bulldogs - Easton Wood - CHB
West Coast - Hurn - CHB.

There's only two clubs who picked a back pocket and the one that isn't hawthorn is one of the worst ******* clubs of all time, of any sport.
Sure - we don't have to fall into group think but there's a reason why most clubs automatically pick a key playmaker, someone who is involved inthe play most of the time, as captain.

Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy, Shiels, Gunston are the guys that can really lift us or save us in a game. And they all do it with work ethic, not flashes of brilliance. What how much better we are when these guys are on the park together (and fit!) and the players around the edges can have that core to work off.

Do you think O’Meara would have been a good choice?


(joke)

 

[TAITA]

I am hopeful the side will be great again.

This club is great.

It has given me more joy and success than any other club has in my lifetime.

Politely * OFF campaigner.

 

[The Chad and I]

Players in peripheral roles don't make the best leaders IMO.

We should stop messing about next year and just appoint TOM/JOM Captain & VC.
Either order would suit me just fine.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

That's not our leadership group
This is
HAWTHORN
Ben Stratton — Captain - Defender
Jack Gunston — Vice-Captain - Forward/Utility
Liam Shiels - Mid
Isaac Smith - Mid
Ben McEvoy - Ruck
Jaeger O’Meara - Mid

Yeah it's not our leadership group - but it's our senior crop (although I forgot about Frawley), those we're relying on now that there's no Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis/Buddy/Cyril/Roughead.

I meant all this as more an aside/casual observation rather than a position I hold strongly and will defend to the death.

 

[TAITA]

Players in peripheral roles don't make the best leaders IMO.

We should stop messing about next year and just appoint TOM/JOM Captain & VC.
Either order would suit me just fine.

Because that will make all the ******* difference. I have to ask - have you played footy at all in your life? Vanders was probably the best captain we've had this century.

 

[hawkermitch]

This club is great.

It has given me more joy and success than any other club has in my lifetime.

Politely **** OFF campaigner.

Well truth be told the club is struggling on field ATM.
I'm hanging in there as there will be good times again.
BTW I was referring to the years of mid 90s to early 00's for that.
I have a right to my opinion, as do you.
Next week I'll be getting my 40 years membership presentation at the MCG when we play the WCE.
A day I'm looking forward to as I am loyal but realistic...

 

[TAITA]

Well truth be told the club is struggling on field ATM.
I'm hanging in there as there will be good times again.
BTW I was referring to the years of mid 90s to early 00's for that.
I have a right to my opinion, as do you.
Next week I'll be getting my 40 years membership presentation at the MCG when we play the WCE.
A day I'm looking forward to as I am loyal but realistic...

That's all good mate - congratulations on 40 years - but bare down, bite down and harden up.

We want our guys to run through walls, so should we.

We are Hawthorn