Analysis Could the form of our current generation of leaders be a reaction to the club's cutthroat list management?

Yeah it's not our leadership group - but it's our senior crop (although I forgot about Frawley), those we're relying on now that there's no Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis/Buddy/Cyril/Roughead.

I meant all this as more an aside/casual observation rather than a position I hold strongly and will defend to the death.
Sounds more like you're comparing the stars to the current crop, bit criminal to leave Gibbo and Birch out of that list if so

Buddy was a focal point but he wasn't a leader, same with Cyril

McEvoy has played 100 games for the Hawks now, he's pretty senior, played in two flags and is definitely a leader in actions as well as name

Mitchell is a big hole, reckon he'd have been in the leadership group without the injury.

We don't have the same top end talent or leaders, you don't just replace guys like we had though
 

hk89

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I'm not really sure the premise that we've actually been that cutthroat isn't largely a media fabrication.

Seems to me there are other ways of looking at Mitchell and Lewis leaving. They were both contracted, and we allowed them to walk for deals better than what we could offer them. Cutthroat would be have been telling Lewis, "Sorry, we know your body can't handle 3 years, and we know Melbourne are going to offer you a 3 year contract, but we are not going to let you take that because we think we can get one good year of footy out of you, so you can serve out your contract with us, and then take your chances with whoever wants you after that". Mitchell had a nice coaching offer on the table after his 1 year with Eagles, again , we could have said no because he had another year to run on his contract, but let him take the Eagles deal. Sure, clearly some space for Mitchell and JOM would have been in the back of their minds, but unless you think Wright was lying , he claimed we could fit them in and still keep both Mitchell and Lewis.

From memory, Hill was still under contract too? If anything , I reckon we've not been cutthroat enough with our player management. If you want to see cutthroat, look at Geelong forcing Kelly to play out his contract despite citing family reasons for wanting to return home.

Not really sure what happened with Hodge. Seems possible he was pushed and then got a life line from Brisbane, but maybe he decided himself it was time and then got an offer he couldn't refuse from Fagan? We've certainly missed his leadership, and Brisbane have benefited greatly from having him around.

Roughy in the reserves does look pretty ruthless, but I'm pretty sure he'd have been told that was possible at the start of the year, and it isn't like a bunch of fans on this forum were not making the same call (and before this year too).

I think the major issue is that it is easy to look well led when things are going fine on field, and a bit harder when they are not. We haven't had people potting our leaders for a while, but surely that is partly because it has been a while since our on field performance has been as consistently bad as this (start of 2017 was bad, but we were pretty good for the majority of that year - about 6th place if you ignored the first 5 or 6 games). I seem to remember Crawford coming in for criticism as captain during leaner times on field.

I also think the current batch of senior players are simply not blessed with natural on field leadership qualities. Some of them are great individual players, but not necessarily inspirational leaders. We have a few that look like they might be future leader material, but they haven't been at the club long enough to be serious contenders for the role yet. The club took a long time to make a decision on the current captain. Makes me wonder if they'd unofficially decided on Mitchell and then he broke his leg before the announcement.
 
I'm wondering whether it is less of a reaction and more of a consequence. We just don't seem to have the leadership in place. Could JOM have gone to another leadership level had he have played with Mitch/Hodge on field? I don't know. Would it have helped develop leadership skills of TOM to play with Sammy, or harmed him by not giving him as much opportunity?

I think the impact has been the loss of leadership. Not a "recation" as such.
 
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I think we massively overrate match day captaincy.
90% of a captains job is done off-field, other than tossing the coin and running out first, the captains job on field is just doing his job. Nothing else.

We lack leadership cause we are in transition. Some guys have it, others don’t.
Omeara looks an option, but he’s got enough problems to deal with, like dealing with a tag, carrying our midfield and helping worpel be in the right positions etc.

Our inability to kick goals isn’t down to captaincy, it’s simply due to a shallow midfield which leads to protecting the defence which results in slow ball movement and bombing in to the F50
 

wheelie_hawk

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for me this is another problem that has stemmed from us ignoring the draft for too long, mercenaries dont make good leaders usually.

Couldn't agree more! Yes being a destination club and a good trade partner is important, but the draft is critical now more than ever. I was thinking earlier in the year trading smith might be worthwhile. With Impey going down and the leadership he brings, I want to keep him and go to the draft. If we trade our pick away I will not be amused. Yes Lewis has been good this year but we need some more younger players in before pick 45! Re-signing Shaun is a must too. I wouldn't even mind another captain, Pup for mine would be good or smith. Stratton doesn't like the limelight & said earlier in the year he's happy to do this year, which doesn't sound like he'd mind giving it up to much.
 

SuperSic

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While I don’t think that Stratton is the ideal captain for our side, I think we should acknowledge the work that he and the leadership group have done to get the team back firing again since his return from suspension.

We could have thrown in the towel five weeks ago, but we didn’t and now we are a sniff at finals and taking it up to the best teams once again. The leaders have done well to keep the whole group motivated and continually striving for improvement.
 

Tassie Cryptik

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The AFLPA wanted Free Agency. This is the result.
I've been following Hawthorn since 1971.
Greene was my favourite as a kid.
A mid week trade.

The wanted this .
Not my cup of tea, but you make your bed, you lie in it, and get up with fleas.
 
Having had Mitchell and Hodge as captains the bar has been set incredibly high for those who follow. Both were as tough as nails, but also highly skilled with great peripheral vision. Hodgey in particular was one of the great on field leaders, very demanding as regards field position, but always prepared to put his body on the line, when it was his turn to go. Generals like Hodgey seem one in a generation types.

It is hard for our current leaders as they are generally struggling to break even in their position, often because they are targeted by the opposition. Have high hopes for Tom, as he showed at times last year, that he often had the extra second to spare, to get the ball to a player not under pressure. As our best 22 get more games together they will develop more cohesion and confidence, particularly as our A-graders get fitter.

As well as our list being middle of the road we seem to be suffering from a loss of IP and high quality staff to other clubs and the AFL. Evans, Fagan, Rath and Russel and all the other asssistant coaches who have gone to great success with other clubs. Clarko still leads the pack of senior coaches, and I have great faith in Sammy as he gains experience. However I think that our defensive and forward coaches need to tweak their game plans, or have our players develop better skills (longer hand balls, flatter kicks, leading towards the kicker rather than remaining stationary).

Regardless of Hodge's success at Brisbane, and the calls for him to play a third year after leaving us, I am happy with our list management. In hindsight only the forced retirement of Lake causes me regret. We needed to reset after 2016, and with no decent draft picks it is a slow process, hence the reliance of trading and free agency. Of course, either of Zach Merrett instead of Hartung, or Dunkley instead of Lovell would have made our list much more competitive.
 

flinchfree

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Guys like Stratton, Smith, Bruest, Gunston, & Shiels were expected to take over the reins and be our next generation of leaders, but I can't help feel their largely-underwhelming form over the past two years might have partially stemmed from the club questionably parting ways with Mitchell, Lewis & Hodge, and having Roughy play out his career in the reserves.

I'm not suggesting those calls were the wrong ones, the list needed and still needs renewing and such brutal calls were the most expedient way of achieving it. However they created an obvious leadership void and those expected to fill it might now be wondering if busting a gut is worth it if the club is likely to treat them in a similarly heartless manner.

Obviously this is not something unique to Hawthorn when you look at say Boomer Harvey being let go by Norf when he was still among their top 10 players. My concern is that teams live or die by their culture, and making such harsh calls on a routine basis doesn't breed above-and-beyond loyalty, and may even encourage selfishness if veterans are more concerned with playing for their careers fearing the club will give them no leeway if their performances drop off slightly.

I think Leaders are born and if you are one - you're just waiting and champing to get to put the jewels on the line.
You're not disappointed if the previous ones leave regardless of their stature, in fact there's a part of you entirely ok with that happening regardless of the noise accompanying it.
We had some special ones, and I think the genuine ones on the list now were looked over because they'd only been at the club a minute.

Should have been Big Boy Mitch and JOM by game style, infectious nature, positions they play and ability to affect the flow of the game.
 
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Not gonna give him the benefit of linking it here, just saying his relationship with the Hawks was near boiling point because he might not get a send off game.
I had a look I couldn't see anything recent, how long ago did he tweet this?
 

Briar Gold

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Re the OP - reckon it's worth raising. To me, it's probably a mix of injuries (Smith and Gunston), just generally patchy form, and a team in transition that isn't as good as the one that won flags.

There could be an element of looking out for yourself, but my understanding is most of those players are on our 'don't touch' list and you'd assume the club tells them this?

More generally, the players that will us over the line when the going gets tough are Shiels, McEvoy and JOM...with hindsight one of them should be our captain.
 
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Without knowing the ins and outs of the team and it's workings, Smith and Stratts just never seemed like a choice I would have made for leadership.
I love them as players but Smith is a larrakin of the highest order from what I've seen on HFC social media content and Stratts and eclectic 'take me as I am' type of guy.
I can't think of any similar types in leadership roles at other clubs which makes me wonder where the players felt they were going when appointing them.

Was the Mitch/Hodge rule too hardcore, did the new generation feel the need to have a more likeable group etc. I'm not sure but when I think of Geelong, Sydney, Collingwood, WC or other powerhouse teams of this decade, we are really falling short.
 
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If you take us out of the equation, Collingwood have won 1 flag and lost 2 GF, Sydney lost 2 and made finals every year, only Geelong and WC could match that. I do concede Collingwood haven't been at the top the whole time but still fare better than all others not mentioned and have created a no nonsense culture since getting rid of the rat pack. Yes, some have breached it but Bucks has been pretty consistent with his buy in mentality.
 
If you take us out of the equation, Collingwood have won 1 flag and lost 2 GF, Sydney lost 2 and made finals every year, only Geelong and WC could match that. I do concede Collingwood haven't been at the top the whole time but still fare better than all others not mentioned and have created a no nonsense culture since getting rid of the rat pack. Yes, some have breached it but Bucks has been pretty consistent with his buy in mentality.

Didn't Sydney win in 2012 ? I seem to remember some very bad feelings around that time.
 
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