Could you believe in God if there was no afterlife ?

Goldenblue

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#51
bunsen burner said:
One thing you didn't take into account:

I base my opinion on what we know, i.e. we have no proof of any God so therefore I'm not going to waste my time believing it. You and others on the otherhand base your beliefs on nothing but are adamant your man is the God and the others are following a charlatan.

Me: We have no proof of any of these Gods therefore it's a waste of time to pick one out and believe in it unconditionally

You: My God is the right one and yours is wrong. There is absolutely no way I'm wrong.

Sorry champ, but there's a bit of a difference in thinking there.
I worship no God. I practise teachings.
 

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#52
Lestat said:
Funny that, nothing there about pork...is there.

however, sounds like homosexuality is accepted in the Bible. I never realised that. :D

After all Birdy...your quote from the Bible above does say....

There is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him. ;)

Its a rather generic statement isn't it, which can be interpreted in any way you like.
lol, well you have Romans 1:24-32. Also the Leviticus law on homosexuals is regarded as a universal moral law, such as do not kill, steal, etc. for a number of good reasons.
 
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#53
Lestat said:
Of course I believe my religon is the right one...you nob. if i didn't believe it was right, then why would I practise it.

Of course I believe that I am right and other beliefs are wrong.
Naturally each individual person would believe their religion is the correct religion and everyone else has it wrong.. that goes without saying.. and most people wouldn't have any problems with anothers beliefs if it weren't for people trying to force their own beliefs on others.

I realize certain religions pass this arrogance off as "spreading the word", but I can assure you trying to forcibly shove a religion down someones throat isn't going to get you very far, especially if that person has very strong beliefs of their own. In fact chances are you are being highly offensive and in their eyes sacriligous. tolerance of religion should be practised by ALL religions .. live and let live.. isn't that how it goes?
 

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#54
Birdy said:
lol, well you have Romans 1:24-32. Also the Leviticus law on homosexuals is regarded as a universal moral law, such as do not kill, steal, etc. for a number of good reasons.

Why not the other Laws in Levictus? You know, the ones forebidding the consumption of shellfish, permitting the stoning of women who commit adultery and dissallowing the wearing of synthetic clothing?
 

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#55
As quoted from another topic.


a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
 

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#56
lol, I would have to ask why PerthCrow and his friends are trying to follow Old Testament law intended specifically for the Israelites? :)
 

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#58
Freo Big Fella said:
So the Levictus passage is different to these how?
The laws of the OT can be grouped into:

universal moral laws: such as do not kill, steal, etc.
cultural universals: such as cultural laws that have developed because of a universal moral law.
ceremonial laws: such as instructions for building the ark of the covenant.

The verse on homosexuality is in the middle of a number of sexual laws such as those prohibiting incest, adultery, and beastiality, the context of these passages is that of universal moral laws.
 

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#60
Birdy said:
Old Testament law? How can there be a contradiction when it's not supposed to be applicable?




As you are aware, I'm a simple uneducated man who is interested in learning about what makes you believers believe what you believe. Can you describe the method you employ to determine which parts of the Bible apply to you and which don't? In my church going days, it was not uncommon for preachers to quote Old Testament verses in their sermons. Is this still the case, and if so, are they wasting their time lecturing their audience on laws that are not applicable.
 

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#61
Birdy said:
The verse on homosexuality is in the middle of a number of sexual laws such as those prohibiting incest, adultery, and beastiality, the context of these passages is that of universal moral laws.
Care to explain what is immoral about homosexuality? (other than "because god said so")
 

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#62
By oneself, indeed, is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself, indeed, is one purified. Purity and impurity depend on oneself.No one purifies another. - Buddha

See Birdy, I can sit here and say my teachings are right and yours are not. What makes you think yours is right?

My teachings are older than yours, I too have scriptures and such, but you say your fairy tale is the way. What gives you the proof to say yours is right?

A bible that contradicts that also contains hatred, jealousy, fear and a vain God?

You can keep your fairy story. I'll see you in Nirvana. ;)
 

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#63
bunsen burner said:
Care to explain what is immoral about homosexuality? (other than "because god said so")
i'm a huge fan of creating debate, but that is a question best left unanswered, as Homosexuality has got itself in that great position that you shut up, Because if you open your mouth you are eitheir one of them or a homophobe. This seems always to be upgraded to "most homophobes are gay and they dont realise it", which really annoys me because my friend is arachnophobic but I'm fairly sure he's not a spider but doesnt realise it yet !!
 

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#64
Goldenblue said:
You can keep your fairy story. I'll see you in Nirvana. ;)

hmm quote buddha and then refer to the bible has fairly tales - now there is some funny stuff
 

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#65
bunsen burner said:
One thing you didn't take into account:
Yes, after reading your response below, one thing I didn't take into account is your ignorance. I apolgize for taking you seriously.

bunsen burner said:
I base my opinion on what we know, i.e. we have no proof of any God so therefore I'm not going to waste my time believing it.
But you just said that you base your opinion on 'what we know'. 'You' don't have any proof that of the existance of God, however, you also don't have any proof that God doesn't exist. Hence, thats just it, you don't know, do you.

Yet you tell us that you base your opinion on what you know, however, quite clearly, you don't know. So what do you base your opinion on again.

And secondly, my proof of the existance of God, is the Quran. You may not accept that as proof, however, I do, hence I believe in God. For me, the Quran is proof. I've read more books on theology then you, and I'm pretty sure that I've read more books on science then you (my dads a science teacher, I've had science rammed down my throat since the age of 10).

Now I'm not saying for a moment that because I've read more, then I'm somehow more qualified then you....however, what makes you think that your opinion is somehow more valid then mine. Oh thats right...cause its 'your' opinion.

Now, you can't tell me the Quran isn't proof, because you haven't read it have you. So you'll be commenting on something you know nothing about.

Of course, others who have read the Quran can make that claim, however, it is just there opinion. For me, the proof that God exists is the Quran. For Birdy, its the Bible. For Miller, its the Torah. Now we may all disagree with each other, and you may disagree with all of us, and we all believe we are right, and the others are wrong.

This is what makes our beliefs, and what makes us different.

bunsen burner said:
You and others on the otherhand base your beliefs on nothing but are adamant your man is the God and the others are following a charlatan.
And you are adamant that there is no God, and that anyone who believes in God is following an imaginary being that doesn't exist.

Quite an ignorant comment there BB. Why am I surprised.

Its rather obvious that you have no idea what I believe. First of all, I don't believe that any 'man' is my God. The fact that you say that I believe that a 'man' is God tells me that you no nothing about the Islamic religon.

My whole religon is based on the oneness of God (tahweed) and that no man can be elevated to His status. For a muslims to say 'the holy Muhummed' is a huge sin, as we are continuously told that Muhummed was just a man, a prophet. As Jesus was just a man, a prophet.

And I don't believe that others are following a charlaton.

I believe in the same God that the jews, and Christians believe in.
I believe in the same 'great central spirit' that the Red Indians believe in.

It is the characteristics of God that we disagree with.

Much of what FigJam wrote I agree with. Yet he is a self confessed agnostic, whereas I am muslim. There is much that the Quran does not tell me, and as such I am open to a number of beliefs in respect to these areas.

The Quran tells me that God sent over 100,000 prophets to every race, every peoples on the earth. This tells me that there are thousands of prophets who I have no idea about, who I don't even know who they are.

Its very possible that Budha was a prophet of God (many muslims from India believe so). I believe in one God, and one message.

bunsen burner said:
Me: We have no proof of any of these Gods therefore it's a waste of time to pick one out and believe in it unconditionally
However, anyone who does, is wrong. Right?

You: we have no proof that God exists, therefore religon is crap, and athiest beliefs are right, and yours are wrong.

bunsen burner said:
You: My God is the right one and yours is wrong. There is absolutely no way I'm wrong.
How is that different again from what you believe.

Just replace the words 'No God', with 'My God', and this statement could have very easily made by you (and probably has been made, in a number of threads).

Do you think that its possible that I am right, and you are wrong??

bunsen burner said:
Sorry champ, but there's a bit of a difference in thinking there.
No difference whatsoever. However, keep telling yourself that there is.
 

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#66
Blue'n'Gold said:
Naturally each individual person would believe their religion is the correct religion and everyone else has it wrong.. that goes without saying.. and most people wouldn't have any problems with anothers beliefs if it weren't for people trying to force their own beliefs on others.

I realize certain religions pass this arrogance off as "spreading the word", but I can assure you trying to forcibly shove a religion down someones throat isn't going to get you very far, especially if that person has very strong beliefs of their own. In fact chances are you are being highly offensive and in their eyes sacriligous. tolerance of religion should be practised by ALL religions .. live and let live.. isn't that how it goes?
I agree with everything you have said here.

You cannot force a person to believe. That is what many religonists, as well as athiests need to understand.
 

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#68
medusala said:
Well you can cross off gullible for a start. The 70 odd virgins theory puts paid to that.
This coming from one who believes in the concept of the Trinity (which was never actually mentioned once in the Bible), introduced by a man who never actually met Jesus, or heard him speak, and who's idea's are known to have contradicted those of Jesus's(pbuh) apostles (James the Just, Peter).

A concept which claims that 1+1+1 = 1 (father+son+holy spirit = 1 God), and only came into being 300 years after the death of Jesus (pbuh).

I wouldn't be call others gullible if I were you. Is it warm in that glass house that your sitting in at the moment.

(PS. So how you celebrating the winter solstice tomorrow Medusala...

Happy pagan day Medusala, and may Osiris bless you).
 

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#69
Capitalist said:
i'm a huge fan of creating debate but that is a question best left unanswered as Homosexuality has got itself in that great position that your shut up cause if you open your mouth you are eitheir one of them or a homophobe (which is always upgraded to "most homophobes are gay and they dont realise it" which really annoys be because my friend is arachnophobic but I'm fairly sure he's not a spider but doesnt realise it yet !!)
??????? Ever heard of full stops? Care to write that again in English?

Unanswered? The only people who want it left unanswered are the ones who can't answer it. Such as thickheads like yourself and Birdy.

But before you answer it maybe you should learn English.
 

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#70
bunsen burner said:
Care to explain what is immoral about homosexuality? (other than "because god said so")
IMO, any fornication (sex outside of marriage) is a sin.

Hence, since any homosexual act outside of marriage (which is all gay acts, since marriage is union between a man and woman) is therefore a sin, as is any hetrosexual act outside of marriage.
 

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#71
bunsen burner said:
??????? Ever heard of full stops? Care to write that again in English?

Unanswered? The only people who want it left unanswered are the ones who can't answer it. Such as thickheads like yourself and Birdy.

But before you answer it maybe you should learn English.

I'm hardly a thinkhead because I'm lazy with my grammar christmas eve(day) at 8.30 in the morning - I didnt say I didnt want it answered, I just said I don't personally want to answer it due to the ramifications on this board.

but at your most lovely request i will run through that post again and add a couple of full stops for your reading pleasure

and I suppose the appropriate question to your homo question would be which persons morals are we basing these judgements on - you say because god said so as not being an appropriate answer, so does this rule out looking at it from the point of view of a religion ?

But for me even if look at it from a society view its immoral becasue the majority of people feels it contradicts the established moral principles ( I love the dictionary) of current society. therfore you can say it is immoral from that point of view - however this principles are changing so in 10 years time it may not be seen as being immoral
 

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#72
Lestat said:
But you just said that you base your opinion on 'what we know'. 'You' don't have any proof that of the existance of God, however, you also don't have any proof that God doesn't exist. Hence, thats just it, you don't know, do you.
Please find where I have said 'I know'. You say you know, I say we don't. There's the difference. All a bit hard for you isn't it Dumbo?

Yet you tell us that you base your opinion on what you know, however, quite clearly, you don't know. So what do you base your opinion on again.
I've told you, I base my opinion on the knowns. We have no proof that God exists therefore I'm not going to watse my time believing it. For some reason you keep interpreting this as "We have no proof therefore God doesn't exist". This is not what I'm saying.

And secondly, my proof of the existance of God, is the Quran. You may not accept that as proof, however, I do, hence I believe in God. For me, the Quran is proof. I've read more books on theology then you, and I'm pretty sure that I've read more books on science then you (my dads a science teacher, I've had science rammed down my throat since the age of 10).
I pity a person who thinks they're smarter than someone else just because they've read more books. You have a habit of reading mountains of propaganda that align with your views and then trying to tell people that you are right and they are wrong because you've read more. Just means that you're more biased and gullible.

Now I'm not saying for a moment that because I've read more, then I'm somehow more qualified then you....
Get your hand off it. I've seen you say that on countless occasions.

Now, you can't tell me the Quran isn't proof, because you haven't read it have you. So you'll be commenting on something you know nothing about.
I don't have to read it to know it's not proof. How can it possible be proof? How can you make that leap?


And you are adamant that there is no God
No I'm not. Why can't you get this through your thick head? I've been saying that it's fruitless to put so much energy into something that is unproven.

You: we have no proof that God exists, therefore religon is crap, and athiest beliefs are right, and yours are wrong.
Nup. Making stuff up.


Just replace the words 'No God', with 'My God', and this statement could have very easily made by you (and probably has been made, in a number of threads).
This is not my argument. There's almost no point in talking to you because you fabricate other people's arguments.
 

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#73
Lestat said:
IMO, any fornication (sex outside of marriage) is a sin.

Hence, since any homosexual act outside of marriage (which is all gay acts, since marriage is union between a man and woman) is therefore a sin, as is any hetrosexual act outside of marriage.
So do you beleive gay people should be able to get married and if not, why?
 

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#74
bunsen burner said:
Please find where I have said 'I know'. You say you know, I say we don't. There's the difference. All a bit hard for you isn't it Dumbo?
Gee...I don't know, plenty of threads and a number of posts where you ridicule others who believe in God, and numerous statements where you claim that God is 'an imaginary being'.

Are you deny that you have said as such.

That would indicate to me that 'you know' and that we 'don't know'.

Now get your hand of it mate, just admit that you believe that you are right, and I am wrong.

bunsen burner said:
I've told you, I base my opinion on the knowns. We have no proof that God exists therefore I'm not going to watse my time believing it.
How dumb are you??

You say you base your opinion of the knowns. Fine, you don't have any proof that God exists. However, as I said, you don't have any proof that God doesn't exist either. So how the hell are you basing your opinion on the knowns?? You don't know!

Now read it really slowly, just to give your pea-sized brain the opportunity to understand!

bunsen burner said:
For some reason you keep interpreting this as "We have no proof therefore God doesn't exist". This is not what I'm saying.
Well, you did say that you base your opinion of the 'known'. Now do you 'KNOW' that God doesn't exist??

bunsen burner said:
I pity a person who thinks they're smarter than someone else just because they've read more books. You have a habit of reading mountains of propaganda that align with your views and then trying to tell people that you are right and they are wrong because you've read more. Just means that you're more biased and gullible.
lol...you have no idea what I have or haven't read. So how can you say its propaganda??

I have read Charles Darwin's 'The origin of Species'. So tell me, is this included in the mountains of propaganda that align with my views.

I have also read 'The history of Time' by Stephen Hawking. Once again....is that propaganda that aligns with my views.

Just as with my religous beliefs, you have no idea as to what I have/haven't read. Once again, you make comment on something you know absolutely nothing about.

Then again, I can't really blame you. If you were to only post on topics which you knowledgable, then you really wouldn't have much to say, would you.

bunsen burner said:
Get your hand off it. I've seen you say that on countless occasions.
If your talking about my comment on Mike Moore and his books, then I stand by that. I find it astounding that you can make comment on any Mike Moore book, when you've never actually read any of his work.

bunsen burner said:
I don't have to read it to know it's not proof. How can it possible be proof?
Pretty much says it all. How do you know its not proof, when you haven't read it.

Once again, you are commenting on a book which you really have no idea of its contents.

bunsen burner said:
How can you make that leap?
You should be asking yourself that.

I've got my reasons....the Quran has proofs, both spiritual and scientific. many scientific claims which are in the Quran, have been scientifically proven.

The big bang, the miracle of Birth, and the creation of life are but a few.

Now how can you make the leap, that there is no proof in the Quran, when you haven't read it, and have absolutely no idea of its contents??

bunsen burner said:
No I'm not. Why can't you get this through your thick head? I've been saying that it's fruitless to put so much energy into something that is unproven.
So what your saying is that you don't know??

But 2 minutes ago, you said that you make your opinion from what you 'know'.

bunsen burner said:
Nup. Making stuff up.
F(ck your a hypocrite.

You just made a statement making up a line attributed to what I 'supposedly' believe.

Yet when I reciprocate, and do the same to you, you say that I'm making stuff up.

Well hello......isn't that exactly what you just did...dimwit.

bunsen burner said:
This is not my argument. There's almost no point in talking to you because you fabricate other people's arguments.
You have a habit of continuously moving the goal post whenever your 'argument' is shattered into peices.

And here you are, doing it again.

Ok sunshine, tell me, what is your argument.

Do you believe God exists, or doesn't. Stop sitting on the fence.
 

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#75
bunsen burner said:
So do you beleive gay people should be able to get married and if not, why?
To be honest, I don't really care. If they want to get married, then they can, I don't care. Its no skin of my ass.

However, what I think is irrelevant. Whether I believe they should get married or not is totally irrelevant...and what you think is also irrelevant.

I'm not the one who will judge them.

The Quran says that marriage is between a man and woman.

So do I believe that gay people should be able to get married. If they want....go for it. Like I said, makes no difference to me.

However, will it be recognised and blessed by God. I don't believe it will.

However, doesn't really matter does it. You don't believe God exists, so for you its a non-issue.

So to answer your question. Yes, they should be allowed to get married. But I still believe it is a sin, as I believe that the marriage will not be recognised by God.

However....I am not God, so what I believe is irrelevant!
 
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