Cox v Gawn

[Blackas87]

The point remains, we think of Gawn being a prolific ball winner for a ruck, but Cox was next level.

Don’t think I’ve ever heard of Gawn being a prolific ball winner, Cox, Grundy and Stynes (Stynes on another level) are the big ball winners for ruckman.

Gawn is mobile and uses his endurance to place himself to drop back into defensive marking positions or run forward into marking positions. You might think he’s prolific as I’ve said, he has more impact, you notice him.

 

[Blackas87]

AFL is far more contested now than it was during most of Cox's career, far more contested possessions, marks and tackles, so naturally Gawn is likely to have better stats than Cox in those categories. Todd Goldstein has better averages in contested possessions and tackles and pretty much matches Cox for contested marks (also has more Brownlow votes per game) so by the measurements you're using Goldstein has had more impact than Cox as well. It's like saying that Sav Rocca had a better career than Josh Kennedy because he kicked more goals per game, ignoring the fact that the game was far more high scoring during Rocca's career.

The Brownlow vote comparison doesn't stack up, umpires these days tend not to spread the votes across many players. The top ten current players for votes per game fit in the top 27 players all time. Undisputed legends like Matthews, Carey, Ablett Snr don't even make the top 50. 5 of the last 6 winners have had more than 30 votes which had only happened twice before in the history of the medal. Either we're living in a peak time of champions in the game's history or the umpires focus on less players than they did in the past.

There hasn't been a ruckman who is a better field kick (left and right foot) in the time I've been watching than Cox, he was basically an extra mid once the ball hit the ground. Gawn doesn't compare in that area. Cox had far more impact up forward than Gawn, 3 seasons with 20+ goals which is outstanding for a ruckman. I understand different rucks play different roles within teams but personally I'd rather a ruckman who has an impact on the scoreboard than one that drops behind the footy. If the two of them were lined up in the school yard I'd be taking Cox every lunch time.

For whatever it's worth, the votes in the poll suggest the large majority believe Cox is better too.

The game isn’t that much more contested to where Gawn’s career average 1.96 contested marks to Cox’s 0.85.

Although you don’t want to acknowledge Gawn’s contested work as it’s slightly more contested era but happy to claim Cox’s goals in a higher scoring era. 0.58 goals a game compared to Gawn 0.45, 2011 and 2012 20 goal seasons were when he split ruck duty’s with Naitanui and got to spend more time in the forward 50.

As for the umpires not spreading the Votes, come on, Gawn has more Votes from 134 games (not including current season as votes haven’t been counted) than Cox’s 290, you really think that’s because the umpires don’t spread the votes now? You can look at the era before Cox and ruckman Jim Stynes has more vote than Cox.

You could look at the positioning of where the players finished in the Brownlow, if the votes are higher now the guy that finished first 10 years is still equal of the guy that finishes first this year with higher votes, they are both still first. Gawn has finished much higher in the placing and is often talked as a potential winner where Cox never was.

You could look at the coaches votes as well, Cox finished in the top 20 only once with a 13th place finish, Gawn has been top 20 four times including winning it in 2018, basically considered the best player in the league by the coaches.

 

[blitzer]

I'd say its pretty close but if I had to pick its hard to go past Cox. He was just so good at everything. Was absolutely elite at finding the ball and using it well which for a ruckman was an enormous point of difference. Great tap ruckman without being as dominant as the likes of Gawn, Sandilands or Nic Nat but consistently excellent at directing his taps to his teams advantage. Very clever in marking contests and was not above drawing the odd free or three. Also kicked goals at a pretty good click for a ruck.

Gawn is kind of like the traditional ruckman, but the elite version. Elite ability to win hitouts, great contested marking, wins good amounts of the ball by position. Not the best kick but not terrible for a ruck. Deserves some credit for his great ability to get back in defense and intercept mark - which he probably does as good as any ruck I can really recall. Also a genuine marking threat up forward, only somewhat neutered by his poor goal kicking accuracy.

Basically you couldn't go wrong with either of these but Cox edges out Gawn as a player overall.

 

[00Stinger]

5 goals from the ruck in a prelim. How many rucks have done that? How many captains have done that?


People are sleeping on Max

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[hotchilli]

Cox for me right now although a big finals campaign from Gawn would be enough to convince me on Gawn.

A good Grand Final performance has me picking Max.

 

[Blackas87]

Huge impact

 

[reggie]

The game isn’t that much more contested to where Gawn’s career average 1.96 contested marks to Cox’s 0.85.

Although you don’t want to acknowledge Gawn’s contested work as it’s slightly more contested era but happy to claim Cox’s goals in a higher scoring era. 0.58 goals a game compared to Gawn 0.45, 2011 and 2012 20 goal seasons were when he split ruck duty’s with Naitanui and got to spend more time in the forward 50.

As for the umpires not spreading the Votes, come on, Gawn has more Votes from 134 games (not including current season as votes haven’t been counted) than Cox’s 290, you really think that’s because the umpires don’t spread the votes now? You can look at the era before Cox and ruckman Jim Stynes has more vote than Cox.

You could look at the positioning of where the players finished in the Brownlow, if the votes are higher now the guy that finished first 10 years is still equal of the guy that finishes first this year with higher votes, they are both still first. Gawn has finished much higher in the placing and is often talked as a potential winner where Cox never was.

You could look at the coaches votes as well, Cox finished in the top 20 only once with a 13th place finish, Gawn has been top 20 four times including winning it in 2018, basically considered the best player in the league by the coaches.

That's the thing with stats, you can always find something that favours your argument over someone elses. Pretty sure given your signature there's no way anyone would be able to change your mind on this anyway.

Having said that, he was off the charts last night.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

A good Grand Final performance has me picking Max.

Not sure how 1 game can make the difference when we are talking about players who have played 290 games (Cox) and someone who will probably reach 250 games (Gawn) when all is said and done.

If you take the 1 game approach you have to weigh Gawns 2018 prelim against his 2021 prelim for example.

In addition if you want to look at GF’s Cox was the dominant ruck in two grand finals including one of which we won.

the fact is both will have a body of work to look at and judge them on.

 

[Blackas87]

That's the thing with stats, you can always find something that favours your argument over someone elses. Pretty sure given your signature there's no way anyone would be able to change your mind on this anyway.

Having said that, he was off the charts last night.

Signature is a Norm Smith quote.

Both are champion players which makes it a good poll, both the best rucks of their era. My opinion though Max is cemented in the top 10 (possibly top 5) players in the league right now, I’m not sure Cox was ever that.

 

[Blackas87]

Not sure how 1 game can make the difference when we are talking about players who have played 290 games (Cox) and someone who will probably reach 250 games (Gawn) when all is said and done.

If you take the 1 game approach you have to weigh Gawns 2018 prelim against his 2021 prelim for example.

In addition if you want to look at GF’s Cox was the dominant ruck in two grand finals including one of which we won.

the fact is both will have a body of work to look at and judge them on.

Don’t think he is looking at one game, Max has 5 All Australians, 2018 coaches champion ect…. As a body of work, Grand Final performance is adding to his resume, and I think he saying that will tip Gawn in favour for him.

If you wanted to start a poll on who will end up playing more career games I’d vote for Cox

 

[hotchilli]

Not sure how 1 game can make the difference when we are talking about players who have played 290 games (Cox) and someone who will probably reach 250 games (Gawn) when all is said and done.

If you take the 1 game approach you have to weigh Gawns 2018 prelim against his 2021 prelim for example.

In addition if you want to look at GF’s Cox was the dominant ruck in two grand finals including one of which we won.

the fact is both will have a body of work to look at and judge them on.

Certainly not basing it off 1 game.

Cox for me right now although a big finals campaign from Gawn would be enough to convince me on Gawn.

 

[theyellowsash]

Gawn is the best right now. But cox was something else. A legit midfielder as well as the best ruckman. For all gawn does, he's not quite at that same level.

 

[reggie]

Signature is a Norm Smith quote.

Both are champion players which makes it a good poll, both the best rucks of their era. My opinion though Max is cemented in the top 10 (possibly top 5) players in the league right now, I’m not sure Cox was ever that.

Mike Sheahan had Cox at 12 in his best players from 1990-2015 and regularly in his top 10 each season but hey, one man's opinion against another. As I said, I don't think anyone or a Big Footy poll result will convince you that Cox might possibly have had as much impact as Max

 

[Blackas87]

Mike Sheahan had Cox at 12 in his best players from 1990-2015 and regularly in his top 10 each season but hey, one man's opinion against another. As I said, I don't think anyone or a Big Footy poll result will convince you that Cox might possibly have had as much impact as Max

Above Buckley, Buddy, McLeod, Simon Black, Goodes, Riewoldt. Interesting

 

[schmuttt]

Reading this thread just makes me think Goldstein is probably the most underrated player since 2000.

 

[Islanda22]

Cox was a pioneer for huge ruckman racking up touches and being decent by foot

He use to get the handball receives which tells you how good he was by foot at 204cm/110kg

Gawn is far better defensively and his marking

 

[Sully90]

Cox at the moment for me. Although I don't think I've seen a ruckman do what Gawn did in the preliminary final before.

 

[Trav 20]

It's getting very close.

Cox a better follower with better footskills and Gawn the better ruck and without looking at the stats I'd say contested mark.

If Gawn plays another 4-5 years and captains the Dees to another flag then he might scrape past Cox. But I'd never argue the point with anyone, as I've always considered Cox the best ruckman since Madden.

 

[schmuttt]

It's getting very close.

Cox a better follower with better footskills and Gawn the better ruck and without looking at the stats I'd say contested mark.

If Gawn plays another 4-5 years and captains the Dees to another flag then he might scrape past Cox. But I'd never argue the point with anyone, as I've always considered Cox the best ruckman since Madden.

Agree with this. Gawn would have to get at least one more AA and captain another flag then I'd probably have him over Cox.

 

[00Stinger]

Agree with this. Gawn would have to get at least one more AA and captain another flag then I'd probably have him over Cox.

captaining the team to a flag should have no bearing on the discussion tbf

 

[schmuttt]

captaining the team to a flag should have no bearing on the discussion tbf

You are correct, meant more playing a critical role in a second premiership team.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

You are correct, meant more playing a critical role in a second premiership team.

Dean Cox 2006 GF > Max Gawn 2021 GF

Dean Cox 2005 GF > Max Gawn 2021 GF

 

[Trav 20]

Dean Cox 2006 GF > Max Gawn 2021 GF

Dean Cox 2005 GF > Max Gawn 2021 GF

The memory is hazy, but your assertions certainly aren't backed by stats.

Similar disposals, hitouts, etc.

 

[nickcat0]

Reckon Max has a bigger impact.

Cox got around the ground getting more possessions and more marks getting involved a lot, but Max gets into positions where he impacts with more contested marks and possession, more clearances and tackles.

Cox had 71 Brownlow votes from 290 games, Not including the current season but Max is already on 73 votes from 134 games suggesting the bigger impact he has.

Do you always agree with the Umpires' decisions and always applaud their decisions, even when they penalise your team?

If, as I suspect, the answer is "no"; then why do you give such credence to who they think is best on ground?

 

[Blackas87]

Do you always agree with the Umpires' decisions and always applaud their decisions, even when they penalise your team?

If, as I suspect, the answer is "no"; then why do you give such credence to who they think is best on ground?

you suspect? Generally the umpires make the right decisions, fans just get frustrated when the umpire penalises their team.

The Brownlow is the leagues official award for best player of the season, I think it holds some weight, but maybe you prefer the coaches award, the one Max Gawn won in 2018.