Cox v Gawn

[Happy Mastenator]

Compare the pair:

Games: Gawn x 232 - Cox x 290

Gawn x 7 All Australian - Cox 6
Gawn x 2 B&Fs - Cox 1
Gawn x 1 AFLCA - Cox 0
Gawn x 121 Brownlow Votes from 224 games - Cox x 71 Brownlow Votes from 290 games (Gawn 50 more from 66 less games)

Gawn averages more disposals (even without adjusting 2020 season stats)
Gawn averages more hitouts (x 10 ave - Gawn already more than 1000 ahead)
Gawn averages more tackles
Gawn averages more clearances (845 to 813 ie 32 more from 58 less games)
Gawn averages more contested possessions (45% more)
Gawn averages more contested marks (475 to 246 ie a whopping 229 more from 58 less games)
Cox averages more general marks
Cox averages more goals (0.6 to 0.5)
Cox averages more goal assists

Gawn x 1 premiership
Cox x 1 premiership

Gawn has clearly been the more influential player on the outcome of games. This is recognised by Gawn smashing Cox in Brownlow votes as well as coaches votes.

Not only has Gawn won the AFLCA, he's finished top 20 x 5 times.
Cox has never won it and finished top 20 just once (13th). The award started in 2003 which is 2 years after Cox started his career in 2001. Looking at the stats Cox wouldn't have troubled the voters of the award in his first 2 years had it been around, which is understandable for a 19/20 year old ruck.

Gawn has taken 4+ contested marks in a game 40 times (17.2%). Cox has taken 4+ contested marks in a game 7 times (2.4%). For today's current players Gawn has the most 4+ contested marks in a game with Tom Lynch second on 39.

Most goals in a game: Gawn x 5 (prelim final) - Cox x 5 (H&A)

It doesn't matter how you slice it or dice it Gawn has past Cox as this century's greatest ruckman and in my opinion lays claim to being the greatest ruckman of all time. I saw Simon Madden, who was a great player, but he also spent a lot of time playing as a key forward. As a pure ruckman it's Gawn for me.

A lot of those stats you mention are impacted by a) the game style. Hit out leaders in Coxs time were a long way behind in raw numbers to today for example, and b) cox almost always had a good (Seaby) to great (Nic Nat) that played alongside him and ate into his raw numbers.

Gawn and Cox are both awesome. Would have been good to see them go head to head in their prime.

 

[Trav 20]

A lot of those stats you mention are impacted by a) the game style. Hit out leaders in Coxs time were a long way behind in raw numbers to today for example, and b) cox almost always had a good (Seaby) to great (Nic Nat) that played alongside him and ate into his raw numbers.

Gawn and Cox are both awesome. Would have been good to see them go head to head in their prime.

I agree. I don't put much weight on the raw hitout stats.

One fun fact that I've not read elsewhere is that a very young and raw Max Gawn played in the legend Dean Cox' very last ever AFL game in 2014.

I love that little bit of history between the two.

 

[omgfridge]

If brownlow medal votes are so important can Eagles fans say Matt Priddis was a better footballer than both Christian Petracca

5

Christian Petracca

Age

29

Ht

187cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.4

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

2.5

4star

D

24.4

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.5

3star

T

3.6

4star

CL

3.4

4star

D

19.0

5star

K

7.8

3star

HB

11.2

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.0

4star

and Clayton Oliver

13

Clayton Oliver

Age

28

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.8

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

18.4

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

6.3

5star

CL

6.3

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

19.2

5star

K

4.6

2star

HB

14.6

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.8

5star

?

 

[Trav 20]

If brownlow medal votes are so important can Eagles fans say Matt Priddis was a better footballer than both Christian Petracca and Clayton Oliver?

No, but if Priddis won more All Australians, had a far better record in the Coaches award, kicked more goals, had more score involvements, contested possessions and inside 50s, then you'd have a compelling argument.

Start a thread Priddis v Oliver or Petracca.

 

[Aura]

Trav 20 it’s pretty clear who’s had the better career and yes, it’s the answer you’re hoping for. But does the fact that Max Gawn

11

Max Gawn

Age

33

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.7

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

35.3

5star

D

18.5

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

7.0

4star

CL

3.5

4star

HO

29.2

5star

D

8.4

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

15.6

5star

took years to breakout before dominating against us, if I’m remembering correctly, count against him? Whereas Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

44

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

was pretty much up in that insane Eagles midfield right from the get go?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Trav 20 it’s pretty clear who’s had the better career and yes, it’s the answer you’re hoping for. But does the fact that Max Gawn took years to breakout before dominating against us, if I’m remembering correctly, count against him? Whereas Dean Cox was pretty much up in that insane Eagles midfield right from the get go?

To be fair to Gawn, he had a couple of knee reco's to get through first.

 

[Trav 20]

Trav 20 it’s pretty clear who’s had the better career and yes, it’s the answer you’re hoping for. But does the fact that Max Gawn took years to breakout before dominating against us, if I’m remembering correctly, count against him? Whereas Dean Cox was pretty much up in that insane Eagles midfield right from the get go?

Yes, his breakout game was in Corey Enright's 300th in 2015.

2015 is a long time ago and Max is still at the top of his game, so, for me, that longevity overcomes a slow start. One of the reasons he had a slow start is that he did his second ACL early in his time at the Dees. Smoking darts on the way to training probably didn't help.

His first AA came at the age of 24, which is still pretty young for a ruck.

Cox played his last game when he was younger than Max is now. Does it count against Cox that Gawn is still being best on ground at an age when Cox had had enough ?

Ultimately, players are judged on games played. By the end of his career Gawn will go close to matching Cox' 290.

Btw, I don't think people mark down Gary Ablett Jr even though he only averaged 15 disposals per game for his first 100. It was his 6th season before he took off. So I could ask you the same question.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Yes, his breakout game was in Corey Enright's 300th in 2015.

2015 is a long time ago and Max is still at the top of his game, so, for me, that longevity overcomes a slow start. One of the reasons he had a slow start is that he did his second ACL early in his time at the Dees. Smoking darts on the way to training probably didn't help.

His first AA came at the age of 24, which is still pretty young for a ruck.

Cox played his last game when he was younger than Max is now. Does it count against Cox that Gawn is still being best on ground at an age when Cox had had enough ?

Ultimately, players are judged on games played. By the end of his career Gawn will go close to matching Cox' 290.

Btw, I don't think people mark down Gary Ablett Jr even though he only averaged 15 disposals per game for his first 100. It was his 6th season before he took off. So I could ask you the same question.

This is where i have to push back. Dean Cox is something like 6th? All time in games played by predominately WA based players. Behind from memory, only Mundy, Pav, Hurn, Darling, JK?

The travel toll, especially on a 200cm+ player from WA is immense. Cox playing 290 is frankly incredible.

 

[Young Redleg]

Against the worst team in the comp, not sure that’s the gotcha you think it is.

Lame excuse. There have been plenty of second rate rucks in the past who have been able to put up a decent effort against Gawn.

 

[Blackas87]

This is where i have to push back. Dean Cox is something like 6th? All time in games played by predominately WA based players. Behind from memory, only Mundy, Pav, Hurn, Darling, JK?

The travel toll, especially on a 200cm+ player from WA is immense. Cox playing 290 is frankly incredible.

I’m very skeptical on this travel toll costing players games when David Mundy is top 10 all time for games played, Pav just outside the top 20.

In West Coasts existence since 1987 Some clubs like Adelaide, Brisbane and Geelong have 5 players going past 300 games, other clubs like Melbourne, Collingwood and West Coast have 2 (I’m including Darling). Essendon have only 1 in Dustin Fletcher.

As for Cox retiring on 290, he was still good enough to keep playing another season or more. He just retired saying “he wasn’t impacting the games like he used to” but he was still one of the better ruckman in the league, I think he just retired because didn’t want to completely fall off a cliff.

Sandilands played until he was nearly 37 and he was completely banged up, Cox I’m sure had a few more seasons left in him.

West Coadt were also very well off in the ruck stocks with Nic Nat, Lycett and Sinclair on the books, I wonder if that also played part in him wanting to move on?

 

[Blackas87]

8 x All Australian

 

[My Tilly]

Gawn's gone flying past Coxy now.
It was a conversation a couple of years ago but not anymore.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

8 x All Australian

I love Maxy and wouldn't make an argument either way for him or Cox. Think they are both at legend status.

But, Maxxy is benefitting from his reputation a bit now, like all 5+ AA reps. 2024 he was dominant, but 2025, 2022 and 2021 good arguments could have been made for others.

In the AFL Ratings for rucks in his AA years.

2025 - 3rd
2024 - 1st
2022 - 6th
2021 - 5th
2020 - 2nd
2019 - 1st
2018 - 1st
2016 - 1st

 

[Trav 20]

I love Maxy and wouldn't make an argument either way for him or Cox. Think they are both at legend status.

But, Maxxy is benefitting from his reputation a bit now, like all 5+ AA reps. 2024 he was dominant, but 2025, 2022 and 2021 good arguments could have been made for others.

In the AFL Ratings for rucks in his AA years.

2025 - 3rd
2024 - 1st
2022 - 6th
2021 - 5th
2020 - 2nd
2019 - 1st
2018 - 1st
2016 - 1st

You should learn how to use your eyes.

Tell me who you think was more deserving ?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

You should learn how to use your eyes.

Tell me who you think was more deserving ?

I said good arguments could be made for others in some of those years.

The incumbent multiple time AA gets the benefit of the doubt, just like Danger, GAJ and other mids have over time. Not saying right or wrong.

2025 - Xerri and Grundy would have been right there in the discussion.


2022 - English, Witts, O'Brien, Goldy all in the discussion


2021 - Nic Nat was in, but on the bench, Grundy, Hickey????, Darcy, Marshall. O'Brien all in the mix.

 

[Trav 20]

I said good arguments could be made for others in some of those years.

The incumbent multiple time AA gets the benefit of the doubt, just like Danger, GAJ and other mids have over time. Not saying right or wrong.

2025 - Xerri and Grundy would have been right there in the discussion.
View attachment 2411104

2022 - English, Witts, O'Brien, Goldy all in the discussion
View attachment 2411105

2021 - Nic Nat was in, but on the bench, Grundy, Hickey????, Darcy, Marshall. O'Brien all in the mix.
View attachment 2411106

I said tell me who YOU think is MORE deserving.

I'm well aware of CDs rubbish statistics.

 

[yulong]

I love Maxy and wouldn't make an argument either way for him or Cox. Think they are both at legend status.

But, Maxxy is benefitting from his reputation a bit now, like all 5+ AA reps. 2024 he was dominant, but 2025, 2022 and 2021 good arguments could have been made for others.

In the AFL Ratings for rucks in his AA years.

2025 - 3rd
2024 - 1st
2022 - 6th
2021 - 5th
2020 - 2nd
2019 - 1st
2018 - 1st
2016 - 1st

Every commentator gave Max the nod. If you watched enough games this year you'd get it. And are you saying Cox never had competition for his spot?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

I said tell me who YOU think is MORE deserving.

I'm well aware of CDs rubbish statistics.

I said arguments could be made for others, not that he wasn't most deserving, but that rather he got the benefit of the doubt.

Especially in 21 and 22, strong arguments could have been made for others.

Look i think Max is the best ruckman if his generation, just like Cox was the best of his. Both absolute machines. I just don't think total AA is the be all and end all. I think Coxy got a couple of lucky ones there as well when he got the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Trav 20]

I said arguments could be made for others, not that he wasn't most deserving, but that rather he got the benefit of the doubt.

Especially in 21 and 22, strong arguments could have been made for others.

Look i think Max is the best ruckman if his generation, just like Cox was the best of his. Both absolute machines. I just don't think total AA is the be all and end all. I think Coxy got a couple of lucky ones there as well when he got the benefit of the doubt.

Look, I disagree vehemently.

The only other rucks to challenge him were Grundy and Xerri. He beat them for disposals, marks, contested marks, intercepts, score involvements, contested possessions, and their actual ruckwork was similar. They win on clearances and tackles.

Gawn polled coaches votes in 16 of 23 games compared to Grundy's 11.

Gawn came 5th on 92 votes in the coaches votes. And you don't hear any opposition supporters question his selection, except you.

And, head to head, Gawn beat Grundy and polled coaches votes in their matchup.

No other ruck influences games like Gawn. Opposition coaches talk about how they try and bypass him.

What other ruck in the competition has the opposition changing their game-plan. None.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Both are true champions of the game and you can't go wrong with either choice, but Maxy for me, the romantic in me remembers just how dominant Max was in their drought breaking 2021 season, amongst the most impressive single individual seasons by a ruckman i have ever seen.

Genuinely feel there is no right or wrong answer in this, Cox was a master and champion ruck in his own right for so long too.

2 Literal and metaphorical giants of the game

 

[Blackas87]

I love Maxy and wouldn't make an argument either way for him or Cox. Think they are both at legend status.

But, Maxxy is benefitting from his reputation a bit now, like all 5+ AA reps. 2024 he was dominant, but 2025, 2022 and 2021 good arguments could have been made for others.

In the AFL Ratings for rucks in his AA years.

2025 - 3rd
2024 - 1st
2022 - 6th
2021 - 5th
2020 - 2nd
2019 - 1st
2018 - 1st
2016 - 1st

Ratings are stupid, that’s not how you should judge players.

Living off reputation?

Max had career highs in disposals, marks, clearances this year. Come on he’s as good as he’s ever been.

He was 5th in the coaches association player of the year for all players this year. He has as much influence as he’s always had.

 

[danster168]

I love Maxy and wouldn't make an argument either way for him or Cox. Think they are both at legend status.

But, Maxxy is benefitting from his reputation a bit now, like all 5+ AA reps. 2024 he was dominant, but 2025, 2022 and 2021 good arguments could have been made for others.

In the AFL Ratings for rucks in his AA years.

2025 - 3rd
2024 - 1st
2022 - 6th
2021 - 5th
2020 - 2nd
2019 - 1st
2018 - 1st
2016 - 1st

lol no they couldn't. It was never going to be anyone but Gawn this year. Also, Brodie Grundy cost Gawn a 9th AA. IF Grundy didn't come to melbourne for that 1 season then he would've been AA in my mind that year.

Gawn has had a career year this year. Absolutely dominated. Like educate yourself on his season before saying whacky stuff like that. Playing the best footy of his life. Absolutely nothing about his reputation got him this one.

p.s. no-one uses AFL ratings lol

 

[kid_a]

I’m very skeptical on this travel toll costing players games when David Mundy is top 10 all time for games played, Pav just outside the top 20.

How to say you're a Vic without saying you're a Vic

If anything having a one singular WA based player in the top 20 kind of proves that the travel is a a physical constraints on a players longevity...or at least doesn't do the argument any harm

 

[kozi]

I could be wrong but Cox was a bit better tap ruck from memory. Gawn is a lot more dominant though around the ground especially. At the end of both their careers I’d say Gawn and it’s not really close

 

[Blackas87]

How to say you're a Vic without saying you're a Vic

If anything having a one singular WA based player in the top 20 kind of proves that the travel is a a physical constraints on a players longevity...or at least doesn't do the argument any harm

How to say you’re from WA without saying you’re from WA

Melbourne football club have zero in the top 20. Is that because they travel so much?

2 WA based players have played 350 games plus. This proves that travel is not a physical constraint on players longevity.