Craig & Walker

[*PAF]

Probably more consistency than anything else. Don't get me wrong - his best has been enormous, but his low points have been quite poor. I didn't expect him to dominate the comp or anything but his disappointing weeks have been below the level I had anticipated, and there's been more of them than I had expected.

I wish we had a chance to post something like this about Salter.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Good post Geoffa32

The issue for us fans comes because we want another Tony Modra whereas Neil wants another Scott Stevens.

Craig has talked up aspects of Walker's game in the media, but rarely his goals. Only his pressure, tackles, 1%ers. That's why Walker's absolute lemon of a game last week draws lavish praise from Craig even though he barely touched the footy except for late in the fourth quarter.

For a long time I'm sure, Walker has measured his game purely on the number of goals he has kicked. You can perhaps draw a parallel with Mark Cosgrove, who 'til his last day with the Redbacks believed wholeheartedly that if he made enough runs that would cancel out everything else.

Craig is going to great lengths to make sure that Walker doesn't measure his game purely on goals. There are other boxes that need to be kicked. Craig is worried that the goals plus the surrounding media/fan frenzy will give Walker an inflated belief of his worth.

That's why he has been dropped to the SANFL. Not because he ever fell out of our best 22 players, but to make sure he understood that there were other things to work on and to teach him some humility.

IMO Neil grossly undervalues players who can kick a goal. It's only at times like Q3 of last year's semi when everyone in the Crows' coaching box would give their left nut for a damn goal that they realise just how important goalkickers are.

You only have to look through the Geelong, Hawthorn, Collingwood and St Kilda line ups to see how many opportunistic, natural, sometimes inconsistent forwards they have who can get the ball through the big sticks when it counts. Their coaches know that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. These guys aren't shunted back and forth to the VFL either, they are carried through their lean spells with the coaches safe in the knowledge that the pay off will come.

Craig has never understood this. He wants his forwards to be consistent but the reality is that they never, ever will be and throughout football history never, ever have been. Goals will come in fits and spurts. Opportunities are fleeting. There will be periods of games (or seasons) where the ball just doesn't find you.

Craig's attitude towards forwards is why we see him put defenders like Petrenko and midfielders like Douglas up front so that they can lift our defensive pressure up a notch. He places unrealistic expectations on those who play forward of the footy. At times you'd think he would be happy if our forwards didn't register anything on the scoreboard but chased, harrassed, kept the ball in the area, zoned up well... Give me goals any day of the week please.

 

[Crow-mo]

I would hate to see Walker end up as a "Fevola" type who is capable of kicking bags when everything is Hunkidory but struggles when things don't go his way.

too right. Fev got so many cheap goals in all those dominant Carlton side

 

[Godallblighty]

IMO Neil grossly undervalues players who can kick a goal.....Craig's attitude towards forwards is why we see him put defenders like Petrenko and midfielders like Douglas up front so that they can lift our defensive pressure up a notch. He places unrealistic expectations on those who play forward of the footy. At times you'd think he would be happy if our forwards didn't register anything on the scoreboard but chased, harrassed, kept the ball in the area, zoned up well...

Yep, yep...and yep. This gets to the heart of my misgivings about NC. Which, before all of you on that side of the debate get going, is 'misgivings'...not 'sack him'.

Nicely expressed observation.

 

[macca23]

I think Graig knows walker will be a superstar and for Taylor's own good has always tried to keep a lid on it. The media, the supporters have been going ballistic about the potential of Walker ever since he came on the scene. There is a real danger of someone his age getting caught up in all the hype and thinking they've arrived already, when really he still has so much 'maturing' to go, both as an adult and as a footballer. Craig will help him become that superstar.

Absolutely on the money.

Walker will become the player he should become because of the way that Craig has handled him.

 

[SydCrow]

Craig's attitude towards forwards is why we see him put defenders like Petrenko and midfielders like Douglas up front so that they can lift our defensive pressure up a notch. He places unrealistic expectations on those who play forward of the footy. At times you'd think he would be happy if our forwards didn't register anything on the scoreboard but chased, harrassed, kept the ball in the area, zoned up well... Give me goals any day of the week please.

all teams now emphasise forward pressure as a ton of goals are scored from turnovers - Tex himself is the beneficiary of turned over ball

I think there is a base level of defensive discipline that it required - as long as Tex meets that, Craig will be happy

but I do feel sorry for Pets and Dougie who were expected to tackle for the whole front 6

 

[amer]

You always do your best to subtly weave your conspiracy theories in with "real world examples" Carl but the reality is what you say there is just that; an elaborate expression of conspiracy fear. You're overthinking it, creating something in your head that just ain't reality.

 

[jenny61_99]

Interestingly I heard an interview on the radio while I was driving this arvo of an ex NRL coach and they were asking him about a young gun for his former Club who has come along in leaps and bounds this year, yet he had chosen not to play him when he was coach for the last two years. Apparently he was publicly heavily criticised for doing so. He said that, at the time, whilst the player showed enormous talent, he just wasn't ready to play at senior level and that he had some aspects of his game that needed to be sorted out (specifically defensively) before he was exposed. The three commentators all agreed that this approach was definitely beneficial to the player and that he showed a greater maturity in his game now. Sounded so very similar to the Craig/Walker (actually, Craig/anyone young) situation.

 

[Allefgib]

Team benefitting greatly by pushing aside some of the oldies and playing the young guys now.

Sure, some of that has been forced - but it didn't have to be that way and so far many of the young guys are benefitting more from getting game time as opposed to being 'exposed'.

Sure that exposure could be coming but I personally believe Craigy is a touch conservative in pushing the youngsters along.. or possibly holds on a touch hard with his older players. Just listen to his presser where he is still praising the senior players as the source of all goodness.

 

[marvin]

You only have to look through the Geelong, Hawthorn, Collingwood and St Kilda line ups to see how many opportunistic, natural, sometimes inconsistent forwards they have who can get the ball through the big sticks when it counts. Their coaches know that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. These guys aren't shunted back and forth to the VFL either, they are carried through their lean spells with the coaches safe in the knowledge that the pay off will come.

I'm sure Stephen Milne will be happy to learn that Ross Lyon didn't actually drop him 2 years ago. Medhurst has been dropped a few times too. John Anthony led the goalkicking at Collingwood last season, now he kicks the dew off the ground in the VFL. Other coaches have exactly the same attitude.

Craig's attitude towards forwards is why we see him put defenders like Petrenko and midfielders like Douglas up front so that they can lift our defensive pressure up a notch. He places unrealistic expectations on those who play forward of the footy. At times you'd think he would be happy if our forwards didn't register anything on the scoreboard but chased, harrassed, kept the ball in the area, zoned up well... Give me goals any day of the week please.

I'd disagree with that for a few reasons.

For starters, Geelong love to play Max Rooke as a forward - not because he's a great forward (he hasn't kicked more than 2 goals in a game since 2006) but because he's a defensive animal. I would also argue that our best forward line under Craig was probably the early 2006 model, and a key component of that team was Matthew Bode, who's value was not his goal kicking, but that he was a one man pressure machine who gave defenders headaches.

Secondly, Burton and Hentschel under Craig have moved from midfield and defence to forward - not because of their chasing and harrassment, but their ability to create something out of nothing (and occasionally, nothing out of something). I think that Craig does love a goal kicking forward, but he's been a bit careful with a talent like Walker - too careful for mine, but that's what he's done.

The most exciting bit of play Tex turned on on Saturday wasn't that left foot snap (though that was instinctive and special) - it was the spin out of the pack on 50 and the beautifully weighted left foot kick to Danger in the goalsquare for our 1st goal. You can't teach that, either.

Plus, if he was really trying to turn Walker into Stevens, Tex would have lined up at CHB by now....

 

[spexau]

I think the thing with Walker is previously when he wasn't kicking 3-4 goals a game he was basically doing nothing. Making him work harder defensively will make him more of an asset to the team when he isn't kicking goals. He's only young and you can't expect him to kick 5 goals a game every game but when he's kicking 4, handing out 2 or 3 and still working his ass off in every contest then he'll be a superstar. There's no way he's going to get there with out some guidance, whether Craig's is incorrect or correct only time will tell.

 

[srv23]

Team benefitting greatly by pushing aside some of the oldies and playing the young guys now.

Sure, some of that has been forced - but it didn't have to be that way and so far many of the young guys are benefitting more from getting game time as opposed to being 'exposed'.

Sure that exposure could be coming but I personally believe Craigy is a touch conservative in pushing the youngsters along.. or possibly holds on a touch hard with his older players. Just listen to his presser where he is still praising the senior players as the source of all goodness.[/quote]

I heard that too and found it an interesting take on the situation to say the least.

 

[OldCrowBloke]

I feel that Walker has done very well despite how he has been handled by Craig and that Craig resents this.
I know logically it can't be like this but it seems Craig could not have done more to erode his confidence over the last year.

But as you say, it is working - Walker was good again tonite. Really enjoyed his game last week as well.

The key thing is that it IS working.
We want Tex to be as complete a player as possible - not a new-age Fev.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I'm sure Stephen Milne will be happy to learn that Ross Lyon didn't actually drop him 2 years ago. Medhurst has been dropped a few times too. John Anthony led the goalkicking at Collingwood last season, now he kicks the dew off the ground in the VFL. Other coaches have exactly the same attitude.

Dropped once in a couple of hundred games... I wouldn't exactly call Milne a yo yo! Medhurst has only ever played reserves under Malthouse when coming back from injury and Anthony has essentially been replaced by Dawes who has emerged as a player who will kick more goals.

I'd disagree with that for a few reasons.

For starters, Geelong love to play Max Rooke as a forward - not because he's a great forward (he hasn't kicked more than 2 goals in a game since 2006) but because he's a defensive animal. I would also argue that our best forward line under Craig was probably the early 2006 model, and a key component of that team was Matthew Bode, who's value was not his goal kicking, but that he was a one man pressure machine who gave defenders headaches.

Yeah, fair point with Rooke. There's enough genuine goalkickers around him though plus goalkicking midfielders/ruckmen to include a defense-first player up there. We certainly don't have that luxury. Bode kicked 32 goals in 2006.

Secondly, Burton and Hentschel under Craig have moved from midfield and defence to forward - not because of their chasing and harrassment, but their ability to create something out of nothing (and occasionally, nothing out of something). I think that Craig does love a goal kicking forward, but he's been a bit careful with a talent like Walker - too careful for mine, but that's what he's done.

Disagree here. I reckon Burton was shifted off the wing because his brain snaps and turnovers would do the least damage deep in the forward line with 160+ metres between the ball and the opposition goals. And Hentschel ended up forward because Bock and Rutten couldn't play there. The defensive posts were full.

 

[marvin]

Dropped once in a couple of hundred games... I wouldn't exactly call Milne a yo yo! Medhurst has only ever played reserves under Malthouse when coming back from injury and Anthony has essentially been replaced by Dawes who has emerged as a player who will kick more goals.

If you don't count the fact he got dropped after the Melbourne draw 3 weeks ago.

Leon Davis has tested Mick's patience now too.

Disagree here. I reckon Burton was shifted off the wing because his brain snaps and turnovers would do the least damage deep in the forward line with 160+ metres between the ball and the opposition goals. And Hentschel ended up forward because Bock and Rutten couldn't play there. The defensive posts were full.

You're probably right with both of those, but I didn't make my argument well. What I should have said is that neither Burton nor Hentschel are noted as forwards with brilliant defensive skills, but neither have been dispatched back to the SANFL to work on their chasing and tackling.

 

[Crow-mo]

coaches ruin players all the time. they make mistakes, miscalculations etc. of course they do. however, they get to then hide behind things like "attitude problem", "didn't work hard enough" etc. when it works out, then it is because of their genius.

the next time you think a coach, any coach, always knows best take a look at all the players who have flourished at other clubs.

whether Craig has had a positive or detrimental effect on Walker is pure supposition and speculation, but this idea that he "knows" what he is doing is nonsense. He is doing what he probably thinks is the right thing to do, which is not the same thing as "knowing".

 

[amer]

coaches ruin players all the time. they make mistakes, miscalculations etc. of course they do. however, they get to then hide behind things like "attitude problem", "didn't work hard enough" etc. when it works out, then it is because of their genius.

the next time you think a coach, any coach, always knows best take a look at all the players who have flourished at other clubs.

whether Craig has had a positive or detrimental effect on Walker is pure supposition and speculation, but this idea that he "knows" what he is doing is nonsense. He is doing what he probably thinks is the right thing to do, which is not the same thing as "knowing".

Got some examples there son?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

If you don't count the fact he got dropped after the Melbourne draw 3 weeks ago.

Ok... ... but his ankle is clearly stuffed at the moment.

Leon Davis has tested Mick's patience now too.

Out injured this week but Mick has stuck by him steadfastly, despite his Porplyzia-esque form.

You're probably right with both of those, but I didn't make my argument well. What I should have said is that neither Burton nor Hentschel are noted as forwards with brilliant defensive skills, but neither have been dispatched back to the SANFL to work on their chasing and tackling.

Fair point.

 

[Allbetsroff]

Got some examples there son?

Why does he need examples kid?

 

[Allefgib]

Got some examples there son?

mattner, symes..

you know you love that cm

 

[Crow-mo]

Got some examples there son?

son?

good grief.

 

[TDRP]

son?

good grief.

Has there been a correlation between your absence from BF and our 3/4 winning streak? Red cards anyone?

Jokes...

 

[Crow-mo]

Has there been a correlation between your absence from BF and our 3/4 winning streak? Red cards anyone?

Jokes...

the biggest correlation in last few games is shit teams at home.

 

[amer]

son?

good grief.

Lad? Sonny jim? Ah c'mon, lighten up mate.

Good and grief are no doubt code for Goodwin and Grief(fen), which is what he caused us prior to the little patchity patch he has experienced of late (which still hasn't been killer mind you). Being a bit harsh on Goody though crow-mo, bloke's slapped up 280 odd games.

But no, ruined players is an interesting one. Got any good examples crow-mo bruz?

Can't really think of any at the crows...allefgib threw Matts out there but he was always a bit of a silly footballer with a predictable, but admittedly exciting edge. Struggled with opposition attention after a good 05.

 

[conVINCEd]

coaches ruin players all the time. they make mistakes, miscalculations etc. of course they do. however, they get to then hide behind things like "attitude problem", "didn't work hard enough" etc. when it works out, then it is because of their genius.

the next time you think a coach, any coach, always knows best take a look at all the players who have flourished at other clubs.

whether Craig has had a positive or detrimental effect on Walker is pure supposition and speculation, but this idea that he "knows" what he is doing is nonsense. He is doing what he probably thinks is the right thing to do, which is not the same thing as "knowing".

Crow-mo, this is nothing but fluff.

If it is always a coach's fault when a player doesn't make it, then it must 'always' be entirely the result of great coaching when a player does succeed. And that is rubbish.

Craig doesn't know that what he has done and is doing with Walker will turn out perfectly, but he 'knows' exactly what he is trying to achieve.