Game Day Crap selection and game plan

Remove this Banner Ad

hutchy31

Norm Smith Medallist
May 25, 2014
6,567
8,950
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Everyone knows it we are a team of A to A plus midfielders. A handful of skilful non key position players such as Caleb and Daniel. One key position topliner in Naughton who cannot kick. One ruckman that is very good around the ground and terrible in the ruck with no backup. We have couple of B graders like Keath and Bruce when fit. The rest are C or D graders at present with couple of the young ones such as Jamarra and Sam Darcy when he gets on the park the chance to be very good.

When we get the game on our terms and execute well we are capable of being a top 4 team as proven in the finals last season. When we do not we are very average like our last 7 H &A games (21/22) one win.

I will pluck a team to compare our team at the moment. Just at random the Blues who still have a lot to prove and have an the advantage of early picks for being crap for so long. They are probably still a bit behind us in the midfield however head shoulders above us in key position with Mckay, Curnow, Weitering and improved McGovern down back. A bash and crash ruckman in Pittonet and up and coming De Koning.


So it is what is dominate the midfield or we get beat. It got us to the GF in 2021 but it is hard to see us going that far this season.
Would have to agree.

If we look at premiers from the past decade or so, obviously two lists stand out - Hawks and Tigers. They drafted their core (like most sides do), but traded or went to free agency for players who were key to taking them over the top and/or keeping them there - Burgoyne/Gunston/Gibson/Lake, Prestia/Nankervis/Lynch/Caddy etc. They were willing to part with draft capital because they knew they needed to get there and stay there.

Melbourne obviously identified KPD as an area of weakness when their build elsewhere looked fairly solid, giving up a lot of draft capital and presumably salary cap for May and Lever. Didn't look like a certainty at the time, but became one of the foundational pieces of their flag and potentially an era of dominance. Their weakness might be KPFs - if one came on the market in the next year or two my guess is that they'd trade or give up picks to get that done.

The dogs have been hamstrung to some extent by JUH and Darcy bids - but if that's the case then how about sacrificing some depth in established areas to get it done? Most of us might not like it in isolation, but trade out a Dunkley (or whoever will get you that capital) and try and address the weaknesses on the list.

Good list managers or GMs in other sports swing for the fences when they can to maximise when they're competitive - I know a lot of people don't like parallels with US sports but with drafting, some trading and free agency it's probably the best comparison we have. Toronto aren't a destination club in the NBA, but they had a contending list that couldn't get to the end of the postseason so put a lot in a trade for effectively one year of Kawhi Leonard and they won a title. LA Rams have just won a superbowl by mortgaging their draft future. I don't think any of those fan bases will look back on those with regret.

Now there are obviously other instances where teams tried similar things, it didn't work out and the club cratered. I don't know about anyone else, but I think/hope I'd be understanding if we traded out e.g. Dunkley and Dale plus out next two first rounders and it got us AFL-standard ruck/KPD performers in an effort to balance the team and maximise the prime of the majority of this list.
 

Bulldog in Kiev

Senior List
May 22, 2011
156
174
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Jordon Lewis also stated similar to Fagan that our approach to the stand rule is not working.
The question is will Bevo relent or persevere? I think it’s BS myself, good to be different but sometimes conventional wisdom is correct.
 

Mr. Walker

Premiership Player
Apr 15, 2002
3,700
3,625
PO Box. 7 Powelltown
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
As well as being agreeable to trading away a player in a playing position we are strong in we also need to do it earlier.

IMO Lipinski is a case in point. We waited to long, his desire to leave placed us in a difficult position and we had to take unders. We will never know but my guess is if we went a year earlier the trade would have been in our favour ( assuming he agreed to go while under contract)
 

Log in to remove this ad.

immortalmike

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 11, 2008
15,188
26,465
West Footscray
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
As well as being agreeable to trading away a player in a playing position we are strong in we also need to do it earlier.

IMO Lipinski is a case in point. We waited to long, his desire to leave placed us in a difficult position and we had to take unders. We will never know but my guess is if we went a year earlier the trade would have been in our favour ( assuming he agreed to go while under contract)
Dunkley is mine.
We should have used his desire to leave in 2020 to our favour.
 

Mr. Walker

Premiership Player
Apr 15, 2002
3,700
3,625
PO Box. 7 Powelltown
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Just noticed that GWS coach Leon Cameron is quoted as saying “ Clearly we need to take two big men in to combat Gawn and Jackson”.

Maybe it’s not so clear. I can think of someone who doesn’t seem to think that way. Just saying.
 

Optimistic Dog

Club Legend
Oct 11, 2014
2,495
4,066
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Just noticed that GWS coach Leon Cameron is quoted as saying “ Clearly we need to take two big men in to combat Gawn and Jackson”.

Maybe it’s not so clear. I can think of someone who doesn’t seem to think that way. Just saying.

Left field Bevo we use Bont as a backup ruck and stand 5 metres behind the mark. Bevo would probably go to a gunfight with a knife an expect to win. :)
 
Last edited:

Charlie Bucket

Premiership Player
Nov 16, 2015
4,066
6,285
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Jordon Lewis also stated similar to Fagan that our approach to the stand rule is not working.
The question is will Bevo relent or persevere? I think it’s BS myself, good to be different but sometimes conventional wisdom is correct.

Both are being a bit loose in what they are saying.

It’s pretty clear the 5 metres is to stop an opposition player hitting up a 45 degree handball to a runner, to get the ball moving quickly.

We do that very well, so it would make sense that we may do something to try and combatant similar. Not sure what the results have been, because it’s not a measurable skill/stat.

I’d stop short saying it’s the reason we’re losing. If we kicked straighter in front of goals and were 3-1, it probably wouldn’t get a mention.
 

ScragCity

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
14,166
30,848
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Just noticed that GWS coach Leon Cameron is quoted as saying “ Clearly we need to take two big men in to combat Gawn and Jackson”.

Maybe it’s not so clear. I can think of someone who doesn’t seem to think that way. Just saying.

How many flags does old mate Cameron have as a coach? If Bevo had access to a list with as many early draft picks he would have 5 flags by now.
 

ScragCity

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
14,166
30,848
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Both are being a bit loose in what they are saying.

It’s pretty clear the 5 metres is to stop an opposition player hitting up a 45 degree handball to a runner, to get the ball moving quickly.

We do that very well, so it would make sense that we may do something to try and combatant similar. Not sure what the results have been, because it’s not a measurable skill/stat.

I’d stop short saying it’s the reason we’re losing. If we kicked straighter in front of goals and were 3-1, it probably wouldn’t get a mention.

I hope we have some internal metrics that our data analysts can use to assess whether the "outside 5" strategy is working. I'm sure we would. Unfortunately, morons in the media are more than happy to haphazardly assign causality whenever it creates an easy narrative and doesn't require any actual analysis. "It's clearly not working because they are losing," is a very stupid assertion. There will be thousands of explanatory variables that contribute to the outcome of each match. If you want to look for correlation to determine the impact of the manning the mark strategy it has to be a hell of a lot more specific and narrow than win/loss.
 

Golden_6

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 15, 2014
7,612
14,345
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
Both are being a bit loose in what they are saying.

It’s pretty clear the 5 metres is to stop an opposition player hitting up a 45 degree handball to a runner, to get the ball moving quickly.

We do that very well, so it would make sense that we may do something to try and combatant similar. Not sure what the results have been, because it’s not a measurable skill/stat.

I’d stop short saying it’s the reason we’re losing. If we kicked straighter in front of goals and were 3-1, it probably wouldn’t get a mention.
Does anybody realise that we did this the entirety of last year? No one mentioned it in the slightest so it’s only as issue now that we’re losing.

I do agree that we need to tweak how we do it. I don’t think we should be doing in the back half of the ground but I understand it in our forward half where the opposition looks to change angle and cut back through the corridor.
 

Deadly Dunkley

Club Legend
Dec 18, 2015
2,261
3,864
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arizona Cardinals
Bevo is cooked - unfortunately he has free reign of the club for the next 12 years because he fluked a flag.

But I don’t say this lightly, he’s not very good. Great people person, unfortunately these players have heard it all before, there’s only so much that can be said to get us up and about week in week out. We have seen ZERO development in our game plan in 6 years, we have never made the top 4 because we cannot play consistent footy. We rely on individual player brilliance and 120% effort at the ball carrier which is NOT sustainable week in week out.

Good teams have a system in place which allows them to the be a little bit down from time to time and grind out wins anyway - we are not and have NEVER been a good team under Bev.

I’m sorry but why do you think we miss easy goals? We battle undermanned in every position on the ground and are expected to pressure 100% of the time - our players are rooted.

So much needs to change yet we have a coach who cannot adapt whether that’s because he just doesn’t have the ability or because he refuses to be wrong I’m not sure, probably the latter. Watch him double down this week on his mistakes, we’ll pants North and he’ll be seen as a hero internally again and go on his merry ways for the next 12 years.

Honestly. If you disagree with me answer this, have we as a football team, improved over the past 6 years? Has our gameplan developed with the times? Have individual players improved? Absolutely they have, but have we?

That’s all that needs to be said really, time to go Bev - I really hope he has the decency to go himself because unfortunately the club just won’t do it.

Ummm. We were in the Grand Final last year. If we hadn’t had to circle the globe to there we might not have run out of legs…. Don’t think he fluked a flag - we’ve never had a run consistently up the top like we have had under Bevo.

By the end of this year, JUH will have played more games so can contribute more and Bruce should be back kicking goals. Huge difference and this board will lift accordingly.
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
19,690
21,650
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Does anybody realise that we did this the entirety of last year? No one mentioned it in the slightest so it’s only as issue now that we’re losing.

I do agree that we need to tweak how we do it. I don’t think we should be doing in the back half of the ground but I understand it in our forward half where the opposition looks to change angle and cut back through the corridor.
I don’t think we did it anywhere near as aggressively last year. My problem is with the 100% have to do it every time attitude towards it, like you said there should be times we do it and times we don’t. You’d expect players to be able to work this out it’s not exactly rocket science - but I’ve seen players do it and take the mark back inside defensive 50 which is ridiculous. A lot of players also go back 5m but stay in line with the opposition ie on the boundary - this achieves zero. Go back 5 and cover the corridor sure - but if we’re doing this we’ve also got to back our defensive talls to win the contest if we force them down the line - then we go in undersized?

My problem is not with the tactic in isolation but it seems it goes against the way we play and our usual strengths, how does a defensive tactic which is supposed to force oppo to kick to contests, help a team which is always undersized and sucks aerially?

Also we press our defensive 50 up high as a general rule, then we give the ball carrier space and time to get it in long over the back? How is that a good idea? Maybe with Melbournes defensive style where the backline sits back and waits in position then sure allowing the ball carrier 5m in the hope of forcing them long down the line may be a good idea.

It’s very very amateur stuff to be completely honest, either that or the players just have not got it right but again it’s not exactly complicated.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

D Mitchell

Premiership Player
Jul 28, 2006
4,326
1,847
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray Football Club
..... obvious fluke all things considered though.

.....
Innovation: Handball in a telephone box and 3rd man up
Personnel: Boyd and Roughead as ruckmen. Why leave that marking ability and ball sense stranded at opposite ends of the ground ?
Players' roles: Older Picken as a predatory small forward, M Boyd to steady the defence both replaced in the midfield by younger more skilled. Defensive tall forward Cordy
Mental: Hamling, Roberts, Smith played the best football of their lives in the finals, the team all bouoght in
Timing: Bev had the team peak at just the right time.

It wasn't a fluke.

I might just go and watch the last quarter again
 

dogwatch

Premium Platinum
Jun 17, 2009
25,474
41,033
Canberra
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Arsenal
Innovation: Handball in a telephone box and 3rd man up
Personnel: Boyd and Roughead as ruckmen. Why leave that marking ability and ball sense stranded at opposite ends of the ground ?
Players' roles: Older Picken as a predatory small forward, M Boyd to steady the defence both replaced in the midfield by younger more skilled. Defensive tall forward Cordy
Mental: Hamling, Roberts, Smith played the best football of their lives in the finals, the team all bouoght in
Timing: Bev had the team peak at just the right time.

It wasn't a fluke.

I might just go and watch the last quarter again
Be careful DM. Don't erupt in your pants.
 

ScragCity

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
14,166
30,848
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
If you look at the fixture, there's no reason we shouldn't win our next 9 games. Port in Adelaide and Geelong at Marvel are the two harder ones but both of those are winnable. Then Brisbane at the Gabba in round 16 is our next really tough game.
 

Munnez

Club Legend
Apr 2, 2018
2,583
2,596
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
We asked an appropriate price for him but Essendon wouldn’t pay
If there wasn't a willing trade target picks would have been chewed up by JUH bid. Power would have explored options my guess there wasn't anyone who we wanted in order to do a deal for that could be pried out of their current club.
So trading for picks wasn't in our best interest.
 

Maverick Dog

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2003
1,164
1,521
Kennel
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Innovation: Handball in a telephone box and 3rd man up
Personnel: Boyd and Roughead as ruckmen. Why leave that marking ability and ball sense stranded at opposite ends of the ground ?
Players' roles: Older Picken as a predatory small forward, M Boyd to steady the defence both replaced in the midfield by younger more skilled. Defensive tall forward Cordy
Mental: Hamling, Roberts, Smith played the best football of their lives in the finals, the team all bouoght in
Timing: Bev had the team peak at just the right time.

It wasn't a fluke.

I might just go and watch the last quarter again
I agree with the above.

The only thing I would add is that since Bevo has taken over the umps have loved us. I always thought the umpires costs us Grand Finals and potential Premierships with Wallace and Eade, we were always on the wrong side of the green. 50/50 decisions went against us, especially the Saints Prelim. There were many incorrect decisions that costs us.

With Bevo, the 50/50 frees go our way and yes we are very discipline but there is no doubt we have received The rub of the green with Bevo
 

ScragCity

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 7, 2015
14,166
30,848
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I agree with the above.

The only thing I would add is that since Bevo has taken over the umps have loved us. I always thought the umpires costs us Grand Finals and potential Premierships with Wallace and Eade, we were always on the wrong side of the green. 50/50 decisions went against us, especially the Saints Prelim. There were many incorrect decisions that costs us.

With Bevo, the 50/50 frees go our way and yes we are very discipline but there is no doubt we have received The rub of the green with Bevo

Do you have any hypothesis about the cause of this? What accounts for the "rub of the green" that we consistently get? Obviously it's not just luck. Do the umpires like us more than other teams for some reason?

This might sound like I'm trolling but I'm genuinely asking what you think might be happening here. I have a hypothesis or two of my own but I want to hear yours first.
 

Unorth

Club Legend
Apr 3, 2014
1,809
5,948
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Do you have any hypothesis about the cause of this? What accounts for the "rub of the green" that we consistently get? Obviously it's not just luck. Do the umpires like us more than other teams for some reason?

This might sound like I'm trolling but I'm genuinely asking what you think might be happening here. I have a hypothesis or two of my own but I want to hear yours first.

I’m more interested in how we stack up for free kicks given. Surely we are last since Bev took over?

If so I think it could simply be savvy coaching. Eg in 2015/16 we really popularised the ‘drop the ball if you think you’re about to get tackled’. We also have a couple of guys that are very good at disguising throws.

We also know Bev values discipline to a painful, sometimes frustrating (for supporters) degree. Give up a dumb free or 50 and we’ve seen him immediately pull players to the bench to presumably drag them. And even drop them.

We win a lot of frees because our midfield is basically always dominant, no conspiracies there. I just think bevs emphasis on discipline + yes maybe some sneaky coaching means we end up with the disparities.

Bev has at times been a headache for the afl, and I don’t see why we would be the beneficiaries of a conspiracy. Even if you wanted to argue us as the fairytale of 2016, why wouldn’t they then switch to the saints or something? Which is where the salty swans reasoning really falls apart. No reason for them to have some Bulldogs-Afl-umpires Illuminati.
 

redmania

Senior List
Jun 19, 2016
195
220
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I have to agree. Blink and we will lose this opportunity for another flag. Whilst there are list problems....th coaching lets us down. As much as I love bevo, I feel we need to inject something new in. Time for a change I think before the window shuts.
It's time everyone. We all know it.. don't let sentiment blinker you.
 

Maverick Dog

Club Legend
Oct 30, 2003
1,164
1,521
Kennel
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
It's time everyone. We all know it.. don't let sentiment blinker you.
if the club fails to make the finals again after a GF appearance with the list in the window how will they react. A strong successful club will move the coach on.

I have to say the Saints play a great style of football with very few A graders on their list while we have a lot of A graders but play crap footy. I think it is time for Bevo to step aside.
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
19,690
21,650
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Unfortunately the club will never move Bev on, would need him to step aside which I doubt he’ll ever do. Mediocrity for ever boys
 

Remove this Banner Ad