Game Day Crap selection and game plan

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D Mitchell

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CKI owns three out of five electricity distributors and two out of three gas distributors in Victoria.
A year and one week ago. today, you could have added the sub Port Phillip Railway Tunnel, rail infrastructure from Dandenong to Avalon and unquantified debt to CCP. 30 years ago the geopolitical environment was quite different.
 
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D Mitchell

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Weve won 2, lost 4, 1 of those we should have won but kicked poorly and one of the other 3 was a 1 point loss. We could very easily be 4/2. Which is about where the stats put us. And that with a s**t ton of injuries to key players....
...and a misconceived selection on the forward line. Your analysis makes sense. That misconceived forward line selection continued beyond the second loss suggests that panic is reasonable.
 

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josh the gent

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Remind me how the sale of the SEC and 51% of Powercor being owned by Cheung Kong Holdings is good for Victorians?

Hmmm, it’s an interesting debate on whether privatisation of energy and telco enterprises are actually in the public interest.

SEC would employ about 4 times the number of ppl to run the same power station, but pay them a heap less than current ppl are paid. So more wealth to fewer ppl (even if you look past the macro consideration of Aust generated profits flowing o/s)…

Also the old power stations had better reliability and better lifespans if you factor in tech enhancements in the last 30 years.

The old “they don’t make em like they used to” comment can be easily applied 😂
 

josh the gent

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On topic - at 2 wins 4 losses it’s easy to sling mud at Bevo.

I am absolutely guilty of slinging mud at him in the past and i stand by my comments that he is an average coach re: game day and selections….. and the utterly ridiculous approach to rucks.

However……. He is absolutely brilliant at getting 150% out of the list when our backs are against the wall. Even with a deficient game plan, we’ve still made 2 more grand finals in 2016-21 under Bevo than i’d ever seen in my lifetime.

So for that undeniable reason - under Bevo we are always a chance against anyone - something that you could never have said about any coach we’ve ever had before…
 

BIG_BONTS

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On topic - at 2 wins 4 losses it’s easy to sling mud at Bevo.

I am absolutely guilty of slinging mud at him in the past and i stand by my comments that he is an average coach re: game day and selections….. and the utterly ridiculous approach to rucks.

However……. He is absolutely brilliant at getting 150% out of the list when our backs are against the wall. Even with a deficient game plan, we’ve still made 2 more grand finals in 2016-21 under Bevo than i’d ever seen in my lifetime.

So for that undeniable reason - under Bevo we are always a chance against anyone - something that you could never have said about any coach we’ve ever had before…
Totally agree. The club has objectively the best period in it's 100 years on and off the field. Lose 4 / 6 games and people are acting like the sky is falling. Very short memories...
 

Mantis Toboggan

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Totally agree. The club has objectively the best period in it's 100 years on and off the field. Lose 4 / 6 games and people are acting like the sky is falling. Very short memories...
I think that’s an unfair reduction. The club has the best list many fans can remember and I think there’s a lot of us that worry it’s getting squandered.
 

_Mike_

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SEC would employ about 4 times the number of ppl to run the same power station, but pay them a heap less than current ppl are paid.

my issue is that a foreign entity should never be allowed to have controlling shares in an essential service such as gas, water & electricity.
 

The Inbetweener

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Weve won 2, lost 4, 1 of those we should have won but kicked poorly and one of the other 3 was a 1 point loss. We could very easily be 4/2. Which is about where the stats put us. And that with a s**t ton of injuries to key players.

DONT PANIC

We'll make finals.
Hope you are right regarding finals but to do that we’ll need to win 10 of our next 16.

Within that is Geelong x 2, Melbourne, Port in Port (who have found form), Sydney in Sydney and Brisbane in Brisbane. It essentially leaves us no wiggle room to drop games against the likes of the Saints and Freo, or even Essendon this week who are close to full strength.
 

Sharpiesadog

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Hmmm, it’s an interesting debate on whether privatisation of energy and telco enterprises are actually in the public interest.

SEC would employ about 4 times the number of ppl to run the same power station, but pay them a heap less than current ppl are paid. So more wealth to fewer ppl (even if you look past the macro consideration of Aust generated profits flowing o/s)…

Also the old power stations had better reliability and better lifespans if you factor in tech enhancements in the last 30 years.

The old “they don’t make em like they used to” comment can be easily applied 😂
You could say it’s an interesting debate. Or you could look at the facts that show privatisation has never worked in the public interest and has resulted in higher costs and poorer service to the consumer. It also has made owners and managers richer, allowing them to donate to political parties, usually right wing ones, who privatised the business in the first place. Furthermore it allowed them to offer lucrative directorships to politicians when they retire from public life as a reward for giving them the business in the first place.

Yes I’m a lefty.

If Scomo wins this election (about a 1% chance), I’m moving to New Zealand.
 

hutchy31

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Weve won 2, lost 4, 1 of those we should have won but kicked poorly and one of the other 3 was a 1 point loss. We could very easily be 4/2. Which is about where the stats put us. And that with a s**t ton of injuries to key players.

DONT PANIC

We'll make finals.

Fair point. Except I don't think we can say we should've have won a game we lost if we kicked straighter, but then say we only lost by one point to Adelaide - because they should've beaten us by a handful of goals if they had kicked straighter. Not that it matters much, but on the "kick straight" rationale we can probably only argue we're 3-3.

Bottom line is even including the North game I think we've only really played well for about 7 or 8 quarters in 6 games. It's frustrating, but completely deserved that we're 2-4. If we're any chance of making finals we'll probably need to win most of the next 7 or 8 games before we reach a difficult stretch, or we'll need to beat a number of contenders to even make finals.

List profile and depth in rucks/key positions is the main issue imo (and is discussed ad nauseum in other threads), and a bunch of our better players are in poor form, but selection and game plan are also at fault. My son's called Robbie and it'd be great if he had a namesake in the firsts for him to follow, but it's baffling that McComb might get more game time at AFL level given last week - even accounting for debut nerves, getting used to the pace etc. We're not playing well enough that we can carry players, so I for one am struggling to see how we go on a run of wins with current team selection.

I also can't understand how after six games Naughton, JUH and Weightman are still all leading or competing for the same high ball what feels like every bloody time there's a forward entry. The much-discussed not manning the mark is ridiculous as a blanket approach rather than based on field position/circumstance, and there are still issues with defending centre clearances and how we can consistently let forwards like Tex last weekend have a bunch of free space in behind the back line.

Now the coaches no doubt feel there is sound logic behind some/all of this, and they're obviously more knowledgeable about footy than BF posters. But it's not working, and we just got towelled up at home (despite the 1 point margin) by the youngest team in the comp. Maybe I'm generally more pessimistic than most but imo our current position is not much to write home about.
 

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doggies ftw

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Bottom line is even including the North game I think we've only really played well for about 7 or 8 quarters in 6 games. It's frustrating, but completely deserved that we're 2-4. If we're any chance of making finals we'll probably need to win most of the next 7 or 8 games before we reach a difficult stretch, or we'll need to beat a number of contenders to even make finals.

List profile and depth in rucks/key positions is the main issue imo (and is discussed ad nauseum in other threads), and a bunch of our better players are in poor form, but selection and game plan are also at fault. My son's called Robbie and it'd be great if he had a namesake in the firsts for him to follow, but it's baffling that McComb might get more game time at AFL level given last week - even accounting for debut nerves, getting used to the pace etc. We're not playing well enough that we can carry players, so I for one am struggling to see how we go on a run of wins with current team selection.

I also can't understand how after six games Naughton, JUH and Weightman are still all leading or competing for the same high ball what feels like every bloody time there's a forward entry. The much-discussed not manning the mark is ridiculous as a blanket approach rather than based on field position/circumstance, and there are still issues with defending centre clearances and how we can consistently let forwards like Tex last weekend have a bunch of free space in behind the back line.

Now the coaches no doubt feel there is sound logic behind some/all of this, and they're obviously more knowledgeable about footy than BF posters. But it's not working, and we just got towelled up at home (despite the 1 point margin) by the youngest team in the comp. Maybe I'm generally more pessimistic than most but imo our current position is not much to write home about.

Push our defence up extremely high, then allow the oppo with the ball 5m extra to kick the ball, with no pressure, long over the back 🤔🤔🤔🤔

Not hard to see why players are continually getting out the back of us, baffling!
 

The Slitherin' Snake

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Push our defence up extremely high, then allow the oppo with the ball 5m extra to kick the ball, with no pressure, long over the back 🤔🤔🤔🤔

Not hard to see why players are continually getting out the back of us, baffling!
This is the logic that is killing me. In all other areas we pressure up the ground as much as possible, but as soon as they take a mark or get a free, we decide to sag off and give away space
 

_Mike_

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Weve won 2, lost 4, 1 of those we should have won but kicked poorly and one of the other 3 was a 1 point loss. We could very easily be 4/2. Which is about where the stats put us. And that with a s**t ton of injuries to key players.

The problem isnt that we've lost 4 games, 3 which were winnable, its how bad the structure was during those games. While the Carlton loss was attributed to the forwards not being able to kick goals that day, Bevo persists in playing a flawed structure emphasized by the injuries/outs the team has.
 

Mantis Toboggan

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The problem isnt that we've lost 4 games, 3 which were winnable, its how bad the structure was during those games. While the Carlton loss was attributed to the forwards not being able to kick goals that day, Bevo persists in playing a flawed structure emphasized by the injuries/outs the team has.
This is exactly right. Set aside the wins and losses, the way we’ve played has been largely very poor. Even in the North game we had a shambolic quarter that I don’t think a genuinely good team would let happen.

It blows my mind that we’ve gone into the year where one key injury would absolutely decimate us. I know all clubs have critical players…but you have to have some degree of structural backup even if it’s a lesser quality. I would 100% take Tom Campbell in the centre right now.
 

BIG_BONTS

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I think that’s an unfair reduction. The club has the best list many fans can remember and I think there’s a lot of us that worry it’s getting squandered.
I do agree we should be travelling much, much better. I feel like losing a many prelims in a row counts as squandering opportunities more than winning and losing a GF in a 5 year period. I do expect us to make finals and be dangerous again this year even if we're trash till round 15.

Injuries to many of our best players are a fair excuse to be losing games of football. That said, I still expect us to win every week but my expectations for the lower and upper bound of performance are less. I guess I'd be more alarmed if we were closer to full strength and performing like this
 

ScragCity

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my issue is that a foreign entity should never be allowed to have controlling shares in an essential service such as gas, water & electricity.

Why not, Mike? Bad economics or national security issue? I'm interested in the different perspectives on this.
 

immortalmike

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Totally agree. The club has objectively the best period in it's 100 years on and off the field. Lose 4 / 6 games and people are acting like the sky is falling. Very short memories...
I think we're seeing an interesting delineation between those who feel that Beveridge has a good/great list that has underperformed and those that feel he has had an okay to ordinary list that has overperformed.

What both sides fail to see is that the fatal flaw in I.e. the ordinary list or the underperformance are both the fault of Beveridge himself.

He has had long enough to mould the list as he sees fit and/or fashion a game plan that would lead to sustained success. Instead we are seeing a failure to sustain winning performance past a few weeks at a time and the same issues being present since 2017.

Something has needed to change for five years. I'm starting to worry that it's all too far gone.
 

ScragCity

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I think we're seeing an interesting delineation between those who feel that Beveridge has a good/great list that has underperformed and those that feel he has had an okay to ordinary list that has overperformed.

I'm of the opinion that we have an ordinary list but I don't necessarily agree that we have overperformed. 2016 was a bit of an anomaly and we certainly overperformed for those 4 weeks. Last year we made a GF, but it was a bit of a soft finals run. We played Essendon, who really weren't a finals quality side. We had a close win over Brisbane who were a serious side. Then we were lucky enough to face an overconfident Port, who had a soft underbelly and have since been exposed as pretenders. So I'll concede that we overperformed for four weeks out of six years. For the rest we have had the results you'd expect from a mid-tier list with a mid-tier coach. Is Bevo culpable for the weaknesses in our list? To some extent, probably. But we don't have the worst list in the comp either, so does Bevo get credit for the strengths we have? Does he get credit for recruiting Keath and Bruce? Does he get credit for drafting Naughton? Does he get credit for developing English into one of the best young rucks in the comp?
 

Freshwater

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We don’t have an Ordinary list. I have been following this club since Dempsey and Templeton were the stars. We have the best player since EJ as our captain and some amazing talent around him in McCrae, Libba, Hunter, Daniel, Treloar and Dunkley, a near superstar in Naughton and a rising star in English. Our list is not as good as Melbourne’s but it is way better than most. We have no excuse not to have more experienced coaches, especially ex head coaches, helping, teaching, and sometimes questioning Bevo. Melbourne have had three recently, McCartney, Williams, and Richardson. They all would have been invaluable to Goodwin. We have also been blessed with prized academy and father son selections recently. We are in the window now and the next few years. Either the board is not doing their job and or ego’s are getting in the way of us fulfilling our talent. This type of talent comes around rarely, and our history has shown how rarely, we can’t waste it. This is totally the responsibility at board level to hold the whole football operations to account.
 

MrChristo

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This is the logic that is killing me. In all other areas we pressure up the ground as much as possible, but as soon as they take a mark or get a free, we decide to sag off and give away space

Last week in particular, the lack of pressure was incredibly noticeable.
2016, even last year we were always where the ball landed, in people's faces pushing up.
Last week (and god I hope it was an (well documented) off day, but we were way off. Not even close.
Personnel? Maybe, but it looked horrible.

As for this week, I'm joining the list of "Where's Westy?".
McComb was poor. McNeil is consistently poor. Vanders is just, and Williams is currently a liability.
Is West going so ******* bad that he can't at least get a look in???
(Also, I'd really like to see Sweet soon. Don't care. Never seen him play VFL. Don't care. )
 

_Mike_

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We don’t have an Ordinary list. I have been following this club since Dempsey and Templeton were the stars. We have the best player since EJ as our captain and some amazing talent around him in McCrae, Libba, Hunter, Daniel, Treloar and Dunkley, a near superstar in Naughton and a rising star in English.

It’s frustrating the number of times we’ve seen a capable list yet for various reasons we kept falling short of success. 2016 aside, we had a list in 2009 that could have done it, and lists in 85, 97 & 98 that should have done it.
 

CarnTheScray

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It’s frustrating the number of times we’ve seen a capable list yet for various reasons we kept falling short of success. 2016 aside, we had a list in 2009 that could have done it, and lists in 85, 97 & 98 that should have done it.
And the club wonders why our membership doesn’t grow lol, it’s because nobody trusts us, not even I do. We are the most inconsistent club on field in AFL history.
 

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