List Mgmt. Credit where due...

Saintly35

Cancelled
Nov 21, 2016
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1 - We clearly have not been overpaying our list over the last few years on the whole to be left with this amount of room.

We rolled the dice to pinch a flag we felt obtainable, but we don't appear to have mortgaged the future to do so.

The delistings of Harvey, Petrie, Dal, Spud with Wells moving on is not the major reason why we have 2mil up our sleeve to give to Martin and Kelly?

I also think our list has been well managed, no doubt - and being able to fit free agents in, pay senior players and keep/reward juniors has been excellent (and clearly better than many other teams).

However for mine most if not all clubs would be in a position to make big $ plays with the amount of space made available after a similar level of key senior list turnover.
 
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The delistings of Harvey, Petrie, Dal, Spud with Wells moving on is not the key reason why we have 2mil up our sleeve to give to Martin and Kelly?

I also think our list has been well managed, no doubt - and being able to fit free agents in, pay senior players and keep/reward juniors has been excellent (and clearly better than many other teams).

However for mine most if not all clubs would be in a position to make big $ plays with the amount of space made available after a similar level of list turnover.

This reads to me like "well done chaps, but you're still a bit s**t". The old backhanded compliment.
 

Saintly35

Cancelled
Nov 21, 2016
865
1,104
AFL Club
North Melbourne
This reads to me like "well done chaps, but you're still a bit s**t". The old backhanded compliment.

Not at all. I said we've done very well at list management and putting it all together.

Merely saying that with 5 senior players (on good coin) all leaving at once is for mine clearly the key reason we have the space, not prior list management decisions. We made a tough call to use this money elsewhere, and I think it's the right one.
 
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czero

Club Legend
Oct 26, 2012
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Reading up on our apparent movements regarding Kelly, Martin, Fyfe and Heeney last year has had me pondering a few things over the last couple of days and I thought it was worth putting them in a new thread. I'll try to be succinct however irrespective of whether we land any or all of the first 3 names on that list I thought the list management team and the club in general deserved a bit of credit for what these moves indicate about us.

1 - We clearly have not been overpaying our list over the last few years on the whole to be left with this amount of room. While we didn't quite get that 5th flag both our drafting and payment structure would indicate that we haven't been reckless, just dogged in pursuit of this.
2 - Arguably if you look at raw payment figures we didn't internally rate our list as amongst the top few in the league over this time either. We gave some stalwarts a chance at pinching it but the resources into the players indicate that we were off the mark. Clearly there is more to football than the $ out the door but it is not an insignificant factor.
3 - There is also arguably a message in all this on what we feel is reasonable to expect from Brad Scott out of the list. There is an argument that a team that was able to obtain the players necessary or develop them to take up more of this cap could have been that tiny bit more competitive in the last 3 seasons.

I don't mean this to be an across the board excuse for not being able to get the wins necessary. End of the day football is about wins and premierships - at least on field - however I do think that the movements we've been making indicate a level of respect for both the club and Brad holding a genuine long term view. We rolled the dice to pinch a flag we felt obtainable, but we don't appear to have mortgaged the future to do so. Whether the next one comes with Brad - or indeed any of the current admin and players, I think they deserve a fair bit of credit for managing a tight list. There are clubs out there that are paying significantly more to poorer performing teams that don't have the room we do to make these plays. There are more things to take from this but the above is the heart of it IMO.

There's some guts in this club yet.

There are some guts in this club, always. That is never in doubt.

But to draw a line between 'possible' offers to us valuing our list correctly isn't hat I would call 'clearly not overpaying', nor that we had space to become more competitive in the last 3 years, nor that it has any bearing on proving that brad and co had a genuine long term view.

We got rid of a number of veterans that have cleared out space on the list, and we have decided to spend the money on long term deals for 2 players. 5 into 2 + a bunch of cheapies during the draft. If we get these players, then lose some players that break out, we will all be fuming. Remember that long term view, suddenly this year we have a heap of fairly untried players and if a few of them really do well this year and are out of contract, we possibly lose them because maybe there isn't any money left for expansion and they get poached.

There is a lot of unknowns about our list payments, and nothing about these possible contracts say much other than that we freed up a lot of cap space dumping a bunch of veterans.
 
There is a lot of unknowns about our list payments, and nothing about these possible contracts say much other than that we freed up a lot of cap space dumping a bunch of veterans.

Nothing except for the fact that we had significant space last year as well...
 
What happens there? I mean say for arguments sake we have $1.5M free from last year.........do we bring forward payments to certain players so we have more to play with the next coming season??

I reckon that's exactly what we would've done.

"Hey Jack, we missed out on your boy Heeney so would you mind taking an extra $200k for season 2017? You can get that pool put in. We'll just shave it off the back end. K? Thx."
 
Im under the opinion we backed out on Hartlett because Pt Adelaide would not cough up a fair % of his player payment. He is on ridiculous coin I understand.

We'll never know mate but yeah, he is on ridiculous coin compared to his output. I suspect they re-signed him thinking they had Robbie Gray Mk II at the time.
 
It makes sense doesn't it?? But Ive never heard anyone talk of it, what is the norm.

I'm only guessing that that's the norm. Oh to be a decent footballer in today's professional environment.
 
1 - We clearly have not been overpaying our list over the last few years on the whole to be left with this amount of room. While we didn't quite get that 5th flag both our drafting and payment structure would indicate that we haven't been reckless, just dogged in pursuit of this.

For our existing players, I agree, we aren't overpaying anyone. We paid a premium for Higgins, he was worth it. We paid a premium for Dal Santo, he wasn't worth it.

2 - Arguably if you look at raw payment figures we didn't internally rate our list as amongst the top few in the league over this time either. We gave some stalwarts a chance at pinching it but the resources into the players indicate that we were off the mark. Clearly there is more to football than the $ out the door but it is not an insignificant factor.

I agree. By any metric, most of our players have underachieved. Many of the young kids show signs but who has stepped up to recognised as top 50 players in the AFL? Sheehan rates Goldy at 44, that is it. Tarrant should be in the top 50 but who else can make the claim? Cunnington and Ziebell were too inconsistent last year, based on Cunners pre-season form I think he could be. Ziebell lacks impact too often and is too inconsistent. Higgins will go back in the top 50. Brown and Dumont are showing potential but we have a chronic problem with players plateauing at too low a level. We have an abysmal share of the top 50, if you can't develop them then your options are poach or suck.

3 - There is also arguably a message in all this on what we feel is reasonable to expect from Brad Scott out of the list. There is an argument that a team that was able to obtain the players necessary or develop them to take up more of this cap could have been that tiny bit more competitive in the last 3 seasons.

I disagree with this point. We had access to the talent, Brad didn't develop them well enough. The reason they aren't earning more is they haven't risen to a high enough standard and aren't recognised in the industry as being wroth more than what we offer them. Many of our first round pick players should have been better players than they are. We are good at developing the hardball level of skills but we are complete garbage when it comes to anything offensive and without doing damage with your disposal that is where you climb the ladder in terms of having industry recognition and getting the financial reward. There is a very niche market for dour defensive players.

I don't mean this to be an across the board excuse for not being able to get the wins necessary. End of the day football is about wins and premierships - at least on field - however I do think that the movements we've been making indicate a level of respect for both the club and Brad holding a genuine long term view. We rolled the dice to pinch a flag we felt obtainable, but we don't appear to have mortgaged the future to do so. Whether the next one comes with Brad - or indeed any of the current admin and players, I think they deserve a fair bit of credit for managing a tight list. There are clubs out there that are paying significantly more to poorer performing teams that don't have the room we do to make these plays. There are more things to take from this but the above is the heart of it IMO.

There's some guts in this club yet.

I can't read the minds of the people at the club in terms of what they are thinking or what are their reasoning. However, it is dead obvious we lack a lot of class, we haven't recruited any good outside midfielders with class since Wells and we haven't developed any of the flankers we hoped to become midfielders to even a mediocre standard, all are well below mediocre. Like Laidley hung on to the drabs of what was the remnants of the 90s era class, Scott did pretty much the same thing, we relied heavily on Boomer and Wells (who we got from Carey's rootin). That is it, we have been utterly incompetent in the development of class since Carey was forced out, let that sink in... he has been gone since 2002. If you can't develop one good outside midfielder in 15 years as a club it shouldn't require a genius to figure out why we haven't won diddly squat during that period.

We spent $22m on the football depatment last year. Where the hell did the money go? :stern look
 
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We anted up and went for it 2014/5

We pull this off and we are anteing up to go again in 2018.

Thats a fair set of stones being shown by the club.

Two questions remain unanswered for me regarding this.

1. Why did we need a wasted 2017? Could we have planned better and more in advance to land some players in the last offseason?

2. Is our backline good enough for us to go again in 2018? Given what we've seen in first two rounds it's got issues. And perhaps with 2018 in mind now is the time to draw the line through Hansen and Thompson and start playing Durdin and VW immediately.


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Mar 15, 2008
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I can't read the minds of the people at the club in terms of what they are thinking or what are their reasoning. However, it is dead obvious we lack a lot of class, we haven't recruited any good outside midfielders with class since Wells and we haven't developed any of the flankers we hoped to become midfielders to even a mediocre standard, all are well below mediocre. Like Laidley hung on to the drabs of what was the remnants of the 90s era class, Scott did pretty much the same thing, we relied heavily on Boomer and Wells (who we got from Carey's rootin). That is it, we have been utterly incompetent in the development of class since Carey was forced out, let that sink in... he has been gone since 2002. If you can't develop one good outside midfielder in 15 years as a club it shouldn't require a genius to figure out why we haven't won diddly squat during that period.

We spent $22m on the football depatment last year. Where the hell did the money go? :stern look

I heard Finey's (SEN) statement tonight that outside midfielders are a dime a dozen...........I did do a double take listening when thinking of our stocks in this area. We had a chance to get Smith from Hawthorn, but the club failed to see what was obvious b4 he got traded them.
And to think we've invested 7% of our salary cap on Goldstein when we've had "meat and potatoes" at his feet.
 

The Dingrel

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Jun 25, 2013
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I think the loyalty to the one club for our club as we know it is over.......and even I found myself surprised writing this when Ive posted about getting Jack Billings and to a lesser extent Ben Lennon to join Lukey McDonald.
Since Scott has been at the club when we had club warriors like Drewy, Spud , Boomer and Wells our list management strategy was to peak before their times were over. But we did in a way that was thrifty ......we didnt lose picks in drafts other than the Anderson deal ( with the club probably seeing him as a quick fix in the speed department) history will show that injuries to Wells, Dal and Higgins stiffled our real chances in 2015-16.

I think the drafting of what could be our spine in 5 yrs time > EVW, Durdin, Mckay and never to forget BBB will save us coin and whoever pushed to get these lads back then whilst we were striving for the ultimate prize 2015-16 could be seen in time a very prudent call. Please remember that new afl payments discussion were in action at the time, even now, it has dragged on.......so there will be "room" as well as time when the time comes based on what these players do on the park to pay them accordingly. I still believe that a larger slice of our salary cap needs to go quality midfielders and a power forward. It would have to be an exceptional backman to break this rule.......and as many here know my stance on ruckmens salary.

The wins and losses issue......to me these days as an older head doesn't sit as a priority to me , its how you play, its displaying guts and showing the will to win that's what is important to me. If the odd premiership comes along well thats well and good.

Remember we have had the spectre of relocating to the GC hanging over the club not so long ago. If this Kelly deal is real then its a statement of all the hard work that went on from the Brayshaw/Rocca years to today. Its an affirmation that a new era is upon the club and with continuing prudent management the club should thrive.
just on a quick note re the draft pick/Anderson deal.....dont forget we dropped down what 2 spots in the draft (from memory) for trading out Basti. As much as I was a Basti fan in his first season or two, he's just been dropped from the Lions. Look at that trade in its entirety and not a bad result!
 
Mar 15, 2008
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just on a quick note re the draft pick/Anderson deal.....dont forget we dropped down what 2 spots in the draft (from memory) for trading out Basti. As much as I was a Basti fan in his first season or two, he's just been dropped from the Lions. Look at that trade in its entirety and not a bad result!
yes ! I forgot !!
 

The Dingrel

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The delistings of Harvey, Petrie, Dal, Spud with Wells moving on is not the major reason why we have 2mil up our sleeve to give to Martin and Kelly?

I also think our list has been well managed, no doubt - and being able to fit free agents in, pay senior players and keep/reward juniors has been excellent (and clearly better than many other teams).

However for mine most if not all clubs would be in a position to make big $ plays with the amount of space made available after a similar level of key senior list turnover.
Ive heard GWS will want Goldy for Kelly.....he won't be any spring chicken next season, not saying I'm either for or against that, but if that were to happen we'd have a truckload more cash too. Bring in another rookie ruckman to develop, or could it possibly be the case the club has had a ridiculous amount of foresight by grabbing Jeffries? Wouldn't be surprised to see Preuss get a contract extension mid year on that note. While Goldy is a star, not as important as Tarrant now from the perspective that we simply can't replace him with anyone. Im also kinda wondering, that while Goldy has been such a good player for us for a long time now, and he comes across as being articulate and always talking in the media,,,,,why hasnt he been in the leadership group?
 
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