Cricket Discussion - Part 2

Grave Danger

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The frustrating thing is that eight of the eleven Australians made a start and got to 20 yet only one of them went on with it. This has been the story of the series for Australia- plenty of starts but very few results. Cricket Australia have to take note of what is happening here as this might be directly attributed to not enough Shield opportunities and too much short format stuff.
...and even the "went on with it" wasn't a century, let alone a big century like the Indians have done repeatedly. The Aussies have either been bamboozled by the schedule the past few home seasons, or they're just coasting for the return of Smith and Warner.
 

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philreich

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The frustrating thing is that eight of the eleven Australians made a start and got to 20 yet only one of them went on with it. This has been the story of the series for Australia- plenty of starts but very few results. Cricket Australia have to take note of what is happening here as this might be directly attributed to not enough Shield opportunities and too much short format stuff.
They said on Fox Cricket today that if no Australian batsman scores a century in the second innings, it'll be the first time in 100 years where none of our batsmen have reached 3 figures for an entire home series.
 
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A confluence of negative events has brought about a bottoming out of Australian cricket fortunes. It is going to happen now and again. We've had it so good for so long that people forget the mid 80s where both our batting and bowling featured some very ordinary cricketers. It took a little while and some brave selection decisions with young cricketers to get the engine running again.

Losing Smith and Warner robbed us of two genuine world class batsmen to guide the younger and the lesser through tough periods of quality bowling. The door opens for Shield standard bats to get more games and so the foundations turn into quicksand. We have a mix of guys who have mastered the get out shot, have technical flaws, play dumb cricket at the wrong time or just aren't good enough.

Kuldeep getting 5 wickets is a classic example. the guy bowls left arm leg spin and turns it a mile back into the right hander. Yet time and again our bats took middle and leg leaving off stump wide open. The obvious way to play him is get across and cover off stump. He'll never bowl you or get an lbw if you get outside the line of off. His wrong un would be useless because he would have to pitch it on the stumps and you can read that and cover the stumps. To get out bowled off stump to him is almost criminal. Makes you wonder if Graeme Hick the batting coach is earning his dough.

The frontline fast bowlers don't seem to bowl with any strategy. Starc has lost a yard and Hazlewood is a poor man's Stuart Clark. Cummins is Test quality but could use a bit more variety and Lyon has been a gladiator this series.

It's time to bite the bullet, give exit interviews to the Marshes, Finch and Khawaja who have reached the limits of their international ability. Harris has looked Test quality and Labuschagne showed a bit. Head has been solid but has brain fades just when you need him to go on.

I'm not overly impressed by Paine, good bloke and all in a tough job at a bad time, but a bit of a plodder. Alex Carey must be knocking on the door for the long term as a young keeper who can bat.

The selectors have shown a bit of imagination with the bowlers for the ODI squad but the batting selections are about as conservative as you can get.

And you do wonder about the impact of big money in cricket now. The countries with large populations which can invest big dollars into sport will see the wheel turn more their way as more young people are attracted to the sport and give them a large pool of talent to draw from.
 
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How does follow-on work? If Australia scores more runs than India, do the Indians bat again or have them forfeit their second innings batting?
The answer Grave Danger gave is correct for Test Cricket but its different for other red ball cricket, ie at state/provincial/county level and for club cricket level. If you want to know more and some interesting examples you can read this wiki page;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Follow-on
Minimum lead
Law 14 of the Laws of cricket[1] considers the length of the match in defining the minimum lead required for the defending team to enforce the follow-on.
  • In a match of five days or more, a side which bats first and leads by at least 200 runs has the option of requiring the other side to follow-on.
  • in a match of three or four days, 150 runs;
  • in a two-day match, 100;
  • in a one-day match with two innings per side, 75.
When the start of a match is delayed by one or more full days, e.g. due to bad weather, the score lead required to enforce the follow-on is reduced accordingly.

However, when a match duration is shortened after it has started, the score lead required to enforce the follow-on remains unchanged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Follow-on
 
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I saw a stat at the start of the series, that said since Smith scored his first century at the Oval in the final test of the 2013 Ashes series, he has scored 22 test centuries for a total of 23, Warner has scored 18 ( he had already scored 3 for a total of 21) that all other batsmen including Michael Clarke ( who played 18 more tests for 3 centuries) have only scored 19 centuries.

Smith and Warner are huge losses because the rest of the batsmen around Oz are so poor.

Smith is equal 2nd with Garry Sobers for the least amount of innings to get to 6,000 runs ie 111 innings and 2nd to Bradman's 68. Ponting who I reckon is Australia's best batsman since Bradman took 125 innings. Greg Chappell who others say was the 2nd best after Bradman took 129 innings the same as Dave Warner. Hayden took 126, Hussey 132, Neil Harvey 132, Clarke 135, Langer 137, Border 140, Boon 148. Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh and mark Taylor took more than 150 innings to get to 6,000 runs.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283183.html

If you look at fastest to 5,000 runs you add other greats in Gilchrist, Walters, Ian Chappell, Slater and Lawry and Smith and Warner relatively are a little down the list, but not much. (Boon is the only Oz batsman of the 20 who have made 5,000 runs not on that list as he took 127 innings to get to 5,000 runs and the list stops at 125.)
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283181.html

So we are missing historically a couple of great players in Smith and Warner. If you took the equivalent 2 players out in the 1970's dominate team or that 15 years between 1995-2010 they would have an impact. Take out 2 of Ian and Greg Chappell or Doug Walters out of the 1970's the results would have dropped away but there were capable replacements to mean it wasn't a massive drop. When Greg Chappell, Lillee and Marsh all retired in January 1984, they left a big hole, but it was accentuated when 18 months later 16 players went on the rebel tour to South Africa and it took about 4 years to dig us out of that hole.

We don't have that type of problem now.

Take out 2 dominate players of that 15 years 1995-2010 say Taylor and Mark Waugh before 2000 or Ponting and Steve Waugh after 2000, and it would have effected the results, but there were plenty of replacements who would have covered them reasonably well - Siddons, Lehman, Law, Maher, Bevan, Hodge etc, Hussey didn't get a go until he was 30, then proved to be a magnificent player, Dean Jones should have played 80 tests not 50. I can go on and on

Look at the this list of most runs in Shield Cricket history. Current players Bailey, Fergurson and White have scored 7,000 runs all average less than 40. Shaun Marsh has scored 6,000 runs at 41. Clinger retired last year another 7,000 runs at under 40 average.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/austr...ting/most_runs_career.html?id=114;type=trophy

The bowling has been good for the first 3 tests. They were tired this test. Their crappy batsmen team mates not batting for very long, means they have bowled a shit load more overs than in the past, and they were ineffective this test, but they did their job in the first 3 tests.

Having 2 players that could contribute on average 170-200 extra runs a test over 2 innings changes the equation a fair bit for both batting and bowling results.

Maybe Australian cricket is going the way of the West Indies. Our positive aggressive approach means we will be good at white ball cricket, but will lose our dominance of red ball cricket.

The negative changes at club cricket that started 20 years ago, then last 10-12 years where so much cricket is played that test and shield players aren't playing much Shield cricket let alone maybe 1 or 2 or 3 club games is part of the long term issue.
 
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Forgot to say, Smith wont be back until March and wont be allowed to captain until March 2020. It will be an interesting time up to then. Not sure Paine will be able to get the players up to overcome a few of the hurdles. No real other captaincy alternatives that stand out.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/cricke...m/news-story/4411636d3ee0dd16bb25b19a1ef52774
JUNE-JULY 2019
WORLD CUP IN ENGLAND

JULY-SEPTEMBER 2019
THE ASHES — FIVE TESTS

OCTOBER 2019
Three T20s v Bangladesh

NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 2019
Three T20s v Sri Lanka
Two Tests, three T20s v Pakistan

DECEMBER 2019-JANUARY 2020
Three Tests, three ODIs v New Zealand

JANUARY 2020
Three ODIs v India

FEBRUARY 2020
Two Tests against Bangladesh

FEBRUARY-MARCH 2020
Three ODIs, three T20s v South Africa

MARCH 2020
Three T20s v New Zealand
 
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I'd be happy with Lyon as Test captain (he captained SA in 1 or 2 games..), with Carey in to keep and possibly be vc. Who else is there as a lock in the team? No one. Finch to stay as captain for ODI and T20 as long as he can keep his form up in those formats.
 

philreich

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I'd be happy with Lyon as Test captain (he captained SA in 1 or 2 games..), with Carey in to keep and possibly be vc. Who else is there as a lock in the team? No one. Finch to stay as captain for ODI and T20 as long as he can keep his form up in those formats.
Cummins is definitely a lock, but he doesn't need the captaincy at this stage. So yeah - we could do worse than Lyon as skipper.
 

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Grave Danger

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Whilst its always good to see a young bloke being picked - for the squad at the moment - Will Pucovski's numbers are hardly banging down the door stuff.

He has played 8 first class games and has made 2 big hundreds but hasn't done much in 10 of his 13 innings. Below are his results in his last 6 first class games and some Under 23 games.

He made his debut the day before his 19th birthday on 1st Feb 2017 v NSW at the MCG and made 28 and was absent injured in the 2nd innings.

Next year he played 2 consecutive games for Cricket Australia XI v England at the start of the season. In the first game on 8-11 Nov at Adelaide Oval he scored 4 and 1, the next game 15-18 Nov in Townsville he scored 20 and 1 and is listed below.
1547010847544.png
 
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Dyson, Serjeant and Wood during World Series Cricket, Welham on that disastrous tour of England in 1981 and Warner had dominated T20 international and domestic and ODI's for 2 years before he got picked for Oz. He played for Oz in T20 and ODI's before he played shield for NSW.
 
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Serjeant debuted before World Series Cricket started. He played his first Test in England on the 1977 Ashes tour, alongside WSC frontliners Rick McCosker, Greg Chappell, Doug Walters, David Hookes. Rod Marsh, Max Walker and Lenny Pascoe.

His first class debut was only in the 1976-77 season.
 
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Serjeant debuted before World Series Cricket started. He played his first Test in England on the 1977 Ashes tour, alongside WSC frontliners Rick McCosker, Greg Chappell, Doug Walters, David Hookes. Rod Marsh, Max Walker and Lenny Pascoe.

His first class debut was only in the 1976-77 season.
My bad. I remembered he went on the 1977 tour of England, but thought he debuted against India.
 

raptalia

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Not only gratified to see the under performing Sean Marsh go but also happy that Hohns and co resisted the temptation to resurrect Matthew Wade's career as the Australian keeper. Wade is the worst keeper I have seen play for Australia and five years ago he had no idea how to keep to spinners. I reckon Nathan Lyon would have six or seven more Test wickets if he had a competent glove man instead of Wade standing over the stumps. As Hohns says, if Matthew Wade wants to be considered as a top order batsman he should opt to bat further up the order for Tasmania. Wade is getting the runs at no 6 in Shield cricket but Hohns wants to see runs at no4 or no5. If Wade keeps making runs I would have no problem with him getting a go provided he leaves the gloves in the coffin.

Suddenly Joe Burns is back in favour. You have to wonder why Burns was not considered good enough for the Sydney test. Burns could have opened with Harris and Kahwaja could have stayed at 3 with Labuschagne in at no6. If Harris and Pucovski open it will be Australia's most inexperienced opening pair in a long time. for that reason I think Joe Burns might be the selectors first option.

At least the selectors reacted to some unacceptable batting performances as they simply could not keep rewarding the likes of Marsh, Finch and Handscomb for some pretty inconsistent results.
 
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Initially surprised by the no.10 stats but I guess 50 innings probably means 30+ tests and if you cant average much more than 12 you wont get promoted like a Vetori and others, who climb up from 10 or 11 to bat at 8 or 9.






 
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Broad's average of 12.94 at #10 (51 Innings for 548 runs) is a little deceptive. he averages over 20 at #7 (4 Inn for 73 ), #8 (55 Inn for 1,145) and #9 (68 Inn for 1,292) and only batted once at 11 for 6 not out.
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerPositions.asp?PlayerID=3434

He has scored 3,064 runs at 19.39 and has taken 433 wickets which puts him in the 3,000+ runs and 300+ wickets group along with;

1547089548745.png



The Howstats guys look at 30 innings minimum, Dennis Lillee with 30 Innings, 383 runs at 19.05 has the best.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Batting/BattingBestAverageForPosition.asp
 
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raptalia

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Broad's average of 12.94 at #10 (51 Innings for 548 runs) is a little deceptive. he averages over 20 at #7 (4 Inn for 73 ), #8 (55 Inn for 1,145) and #9 (68 Inn for 1,292) and only batted once at 11 for 6 not out.
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerPositions.asp?PlayerID=3434

He has scored 3,064 runs at 19.39 and has taken 433 wickets which puts him in the 3,000+ runs and 300+ wickets group along with;

View attachment 603243


The Howstats guys look at 30 innings minimum, Dennis Lillee with 30 Innings, 383 runs at 19.05 has the best.

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Batting/BattingBestAverageForPosition.asp
The further you go down the table the more deceptive the batting averages get because lower order players have more not outs to boost their averages. John Snow only batted at no11 ten times for England and had seven not outs in the position so he gets an average of 31.00 on the back of the 59 not out he made very early in his career.

To me I really only put stock in the averages recorded by nos 1-7. It is good to have lower order players who value their wicket such as Daniel Vettori or even Jason Gillespie but the side should not have to rely on them getting the runs. It is also good to have a batsman who can bat with the tail. The Pakistani's had a guy called Asif Iqbal in the 1970's who farmed the strike beautifully and Steve Waugh was another who was good at protecting the tail and scoring runs while doing it. Yet another aspect of Australian Test Cricket that is sadly lacking atm.
 
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