Opinion Cricket thread

[ChoppyGun]

Warner
Cummins (just to use up balls - runs a bonus)
Lambur'
Smith
Green
Pucovski/Head/Wade whoever
Wade/Head/Pucovski whoever
Paine
Starc
Hazle
Lyon

 

[7577969923]

Agree re Cummins but I feel like stats don't fully tell his story. He was often brought on first change even when he was our best bowler, when the openers (if they made it to facing him) were already set.

I also feel like that's how Starc got his tail destroying reputation. There was a while there where I felt he was brought on against the tail for the potential to take some confidence boosting wickets. He did a good job and that became his forte, but it meant guys like Cummins missing out on the opportunity to target those easy wickets, too.

But they are good tables regardless. I'd be interested to see Cummins record against the top order since he has finally reclaimed the new rock.

Filtered for when Cummins has opened the bowling:

Wickets summary

Grouping	Span	Dis	bwd	c fie	c wk	st	lbw	hw	Ave	0s
right-hand batsman	2011-2020	47	8	20	18	0	1	0	22.10	5
left-hand batsman	2011-2020	19	2	7	9	0	1	0	25.36	5
1st position	2017-2020	10	1	4	5	0	0	0	41.20	1
2nd position	2011-2020	9	1	4	4	0	0	0	14.77	0
3rd position	2011-2020	9	2	4	3	0	0	0	11.88	3
4th position	2011-2020	9	2	4	2	0	1	0	9.66	3
5th position	2011-2020	7	1	3	2	0	1	0	21.28	1
6th position	2017-2019	4	1	1	2	0	0	0	45.50	0
7th position	2017-2019	4	0	2	2	0	0	0	21.00	0
8th position	2011-2019	6	1	2	3	0	0	0	39.33	1
9th position	2011-2019	5	0	1	4	0	0	0	14.60	0
10th position	2011-2019	3	1	2	0	0	0	0	19.33	1

 

[Usayed Givashe]

You and I have always been of a similar view on him. Massive imposter is a bit harsh, but he's so vanilla. GOAT speaks to how poor our off spin stocks have been forever.

Ashwin showing what a truly great off spinner does.

I rate his subtleties and minor changes to trajectory. Obviously a level below Murali and Saqlain, but a class offie.

Lyon is a great top spinner on his day but those days are few and far between (as discussed many many times).

 

[Themanbun]

Warner
Cummins (just to use up balls - runs a bonus)
Lambur'
Smith
Green
Pucovski/whoever
Wade/whoever
Paine
Starc
Hazle
Lyon

I don't mind the idea of a sacrificial lamb opening, but geez could you imagine bowling all day to then have to come out and open the batting? Don't think they'd do it with Patty given his injury history.

 

[Themanbun]

Filtered for when Cummins has opened the bowling:

Wickets summary

Grouping	Span	Dis	bwd	c fie	c wk	st	lbw	hw	Ave	0s
right-hand batsman	2011-2020	47	8	20	18	0	1	0	22.10	5
left-hand batsman	2011-2020	19	2	7	9	0	1	0	25.36	5
1st position	2017-2020	10	1	4	5	0	0	0	41.20	1
2nd position	2011-2020	9	1	4	4	0	0	0	14.77	0
3rd position	2011-2020	9	2	4	3	0	0	0	11.88	3
4th position	2011-2020	9	2	4	2	0	1	0	9.66	3
5th position	2011-2020	7	1	3	2	0	1	0	21.28	1
6th position	2017-2019	4	1	1	2	0	0	0	45.50	0
7th position	2017-2019	4	0	2	2	0	0	0	21.00	0
8th position	2011-2019	6	1	2	3	0	0	0	39.33	1
9th position	2011-2019	5	0	1	4	0	0	0	14.60	0
10th position	2011-2019	3	1	2	0	0	0	0	19.33	1

That is a phenomenal record.

 

[ChoppyGun]

I don't mind the idea of a sacrificial lamb opening, but geez could you imagine bowling all day to then have to come out and open the batting? Don't think they'd do it with Patty given his injury history.

He's less of a sacrificial lamb than playing bloody Rowdy Burns!!

Cummins can bat. No risk unless pitch unpredictable, you underrate him as he makes some of our top order look loose even against the second new ball.

 

[ChoppyGun]

I don't mind the idea of a sacrificial lamb opening, but geez could you imagine bowling all day to then have to come out and open the batting? Don't think they'd do it with Patty given his injury history.

As previous I'm not saying every innings. But say we bowl them out on day 2 at start he could come in, fresh as and means we can protect a gun batsman for later.

Anyway was just a theory as if he's exhausted we just play Wade or whoever back at top, the team isn't compromised in any way........sorry!

 

[WesternRoo]

Realistically in Australia we have been blessed in that we've never really needed a bowling all rounder coming in at 8.

We had a keeper averaging 50+ throughout my youth, a number 6 batting all rounder who averaged 40+ and very rarely NEEDED to make runs, as we had Ponting, Hussey, Langer, Hayden, Clarke, etc. putting hundreds on before we lost our 4th wicket.

We had the luxury of playing 4 genuine bowlers (it helped that Warne, Lee, Gillespie could also bat a bit) and a part timer.

But I really feel like we need to shore up that 6-9 in the order. I feel like the modern era, especially with the pink ball and with wickets giving the bowlers a bit more these days (as opposed to the roads of 3-4 years ago) that having a bowling all rounder coming in at no.8 is something we should consider. It's compounded by Paine not being a 40+ batsman.

A lot of the time people look to the top 5-6 who theoretically should be making the runs, but if we have no one in the sheds who can come in and fill those roles, we really need to consider adding some more run making capacity in the early lower order. Batting all the way down to 8 with Cummins coming in at 9 should allow at least someone from the mid-lower order to cash in against the old ball and tiring bowlers.

I think Green has the ability to be a genuine 4th bowler in the future which could allow us to play an extra bat, but he's not quite there yet. I'd sacrifice a little in the bowling stakes if it meant we could bring someone in who can average 25+ from no.8. I've seen Pattinson at district level and really believe he could be that guy, without us losing much in bowling firepower.

This sort of thinking is prevalent in park cricket, but should not be part of our planning at this level.

Our batting needs to be sorted. Simple as that.

Firstly on Paine:

Paine averages about the same as Haddin who was never questioned for his batting.
He is far an away the best keeper in the country and probably our best captaincy option. He won us the first test with his batting. Leave him alone. Yes you. All of you.
Green or a batting all rounder moving to 8:

This is significantly weakening our strong point that wins us most tests. As you named Cummins, I’m presuming you mean Hazlewood or Starc get replaced by Green?
Not only is Green not a frontline test bowler , it would ruin his development and burn Cummins into the ground carrying the load Green can’t.

We need 4 or 5 top line batsman to be the side we once were and what is expected.
Currently with have 2.5 (Marnus is still developing), one of which is injured at present , is heading into the twilight of his career and is a bit sus away from home.

Burns, Wade, Head will never be these players. I don’t reckon Harris is either.

Until we can find/develop them, we will be having conversations like this and even suggesting robbing Peter to pay Paul scenarios.

A lot is going to rest on Pucovski and Green.

 

[7577969923]

That is a phenomenal record.

Well on his way to being in the same bracket as Lillee and McGrath.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Uncapped Aussie prodigy to the rescue

Australia’s Test side is in desperate need of batting reinforcements, and the team’s prayers could be answered ahead of the New Year’s match against India.

www.news.com.au

 

[ChoppyGun]

Starting to think off that article to leave him alone and not risk it - I rate Callum Ferguson's view on cricket.

 

[Usayed Givashe]

come on mate. Lyon is a very good bowler. Getting players out who are aggressive against you is a skill too.
He also makes your quicks more effective because they can rely on him to tie up an end while also a legitimate wicket taking option .

why would you toss out a proven spinner with 300 test wickets for some young pretender ? no selector in world cricket would do that. Not unless he has a real drop in form

You either wait for the problems to fester and become cancerous or you grow some balls, make the changes now and prepare for the only series that really matters.

 

[7577969923]

Starting to think off that article to leave him alone and not risk it - I rate Callum Ferguson's view on cricket.

Ferguson was/is a decent cricketer but he is not a doctor.

 

[Usayed Givashe]

LOL.

Mitch Marsh's Ex I believe?

Irrespective, it's still one of the great upgrades in cricket history.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Ferguson was/is a decent cricketer but he is not a doctor.

You know full well that's not the point I was making.

He's a very intelligent and respected Captain of various teams.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Irrespective, it's still one of the great upgrades in cricket history.

Mark Waugh?

 

[ChoppyGun]

Firstly on Paine:

Paine averages about the same as Haddin who was never questioned for his batting.
He is far an away the best keeper in the country and probably our best captaincy option. He won us the first test with his batting. Leave him alone. Yes you. All of you.

Smackdown!

Made me laugh......ha

 

[Usayed Givashe]

Mark Waugh?

Old bird to Kim?

Nah, still reckon Lyon wins by a mile.

 

[Themanbun]

This sort of thinking is prevalent in park cricket, but should not be part of our planning at this level.

Our batting needs to be sorted. Simple as that.

Firstly on Paine:

Paine averages about the same as Haddin who was never questioned for his batting.
He is far an away the best keeper in the country and probably our best captaincy option. He won us the first test with his batting. Leave him alone. Yes you. All of you.
Green or a batting all rounder moving to 8:

This is significantly weakening our strong point that wins us most tests. As you named Cummins, I’m presuming you mean Hazlewood or Starc get replaced by Green?
Not only is Green not a frontline test bowler , it would ruin his development and burn Cummins into the ground carrying the load Green can’t.

We need 4 or 5 top line batsman to be the side we once were and what is expected.
Currently with have 2.5 (Marnus is still developing), one of which is injured at present , is heading into the twilight of his career and is a bit sus away from home.

Burns, Wade, Head will never be these players. I don’t reckon Harris is either.

Until we can find/develop them, we will be having conversations like this and even suggesting robbing Peter to pay Paul scenarios.

A lot is going to rest on Pucovski and Green.

This is a weirdly aggressive post for what was a pretty genuine and sincere conversation from everyone here. But turning towards the points you raised, which are good points but I think did not quite interpret some of my comments as they were intended:

(1) I wasn't having a go at Paine. I stated that a Gilchrist averaging 50+ is a luxury we currently do not have. With Paine averaging around the 30 mark, which is completely normal for a keeper, we start having to have those same conversations that a lot of our opposition have had over the years. I like Paine but I'm not going to pretend he's at the Gilchrist or Sangakkara level. He's a good solid keeper batsman but that puts us squarely with most other test sides of most other eras.

(2) The idea of Starc or Hazelwood making way for a Pattinson in my suggestion is that I feel we are not *significantly* weakening our strongest asset. I love all of our top 5 or so bowlers in this country, but a lot of countries have had to have the conversation about trying to conjure up a bowling all rounder in place of a frontline bowler at no.7-8. This isn't just 'park cricket' mentality. This is a decision that MANY teams have had to contemplate as they've watched their side get ripped through test after test with no replacements seemingly able to step up. I specifically suggested a bowling all rounder at 8, with Green continuing at 6.

(3) I didn't suggest Green replace Starc or Hazelwood. I specifically said earlier that Green has the potential to be a frontline bowler in the future but at this stage having him at 6 is the go. I was referring to bringing in a Pattinson or Neser at the expense of one of our two quicks who are weaker with the bat. Eventually, one day, maybe Green can slot down to 7 (although I feel he'll own 5-6 for his whole career) and we play an extra bat, but given his body issues and the fact he's not there yet with the ball, I'd err away from that for the exact reasons you mention.

(4) I agree we need 4 or 5 top line batsmen. Sadly, I don't think they are there. We keep cycling through our best shield performers and they are found wanting.

At some point, when those batsmen are non existent, we need to find ways to win test matches. Just as plenty of other international sides have done so.

We may need to look at an India with Irfan type workaround scenario if this goes on for much longer. I don't see us having the luxury that we've had before, and I'm suggesting that we may have to consider what is a not uncommon scenario that plenty of international sides have turned to: trying to play that extra bowling all rounder at no.8 if that bowling all rounder is the 4th or 5th best frontline bowler in the country, meaning that the third best slides out. We are lucky with Patto and Neser waiting in the wings, as both could own a spot on their bowling alone if it weren't for our freakishly good pace stocks right now. Hell, JP has a bowling average in the mid 20s at test level.

 

[big_e]

LOL.

Mitch Marsh's Ex I believe?

High school girlfriend I think.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Old bird to Kim?

Nah, still reckon Lyon wins by a mile.

Lyon sure, clearly a girl just wanting WAG status (tick tock when over and Bartel etc) but Waugh has my dream wife in a horse trainer now.......ha

 

[krakouers]

My mate and I discussed this on Boxing Day and we had a left field idea.

You'll think we're crazy (fair enough!) but Cummins to open.

You are right... we think you are crazy
I thought we were done with non openers in openers spots

 

[ChoppyGun]

Old bird to Kim?

Nah, still reckon Lyon wins by a mile.

Old bird is harsh but I laughed.......as long as people happy I guess!

 

[krakouers]

Irrespective, it's still one of the great upgrades in cricket history.

Yep, Gary is better looking

 

[ChoppyGun]

You are right... we think you are crazy
I thought we were done with non openers in openers spots

Damn it I knew people onto me this last decade! ; )

Well i'd rather a bowling non-opener to a batting non-opener is all I meant if cupboard is bare