Opinion Cricket thread

[KiwiRoo]

Its been a good series. India shat the bed in one innings but have been the better side over the 2 tests, Aussie selectors need to have a think about the batting. Don't think Wade and Head are your long term future. Paine is a good captain, but doesn't really get enough runs for you at 7.
I don't think they'll make any changes apart from Warner replacing Burns, but they should.
Its a different game when Loose bus change and Smith are scoring runs at will. Papers over a lot of cracks. 100 for 3 is a lot different from 250 for 3.The middle order are batting under pressure and currently aren't responding.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Warner too on Aussie soil.

I disagree Paine is a problem. Well, certainly down the order in terms of highest priority to change.

It's not just the players it's the selectors as well.

 

[Themanbun]

For me it should be:

Harris
Warner
Labuschagne
Smith
Wade
Green
Paine
Cummins
Starc (although would consider Pattinson or Neser)
Lyon
Hazelwood

I think Wade deserves another crack in the middle order. Harris did enough to get back in also. I also think Cummins and Hazelwood are somewhat paving over Starc's deficiencies. I'd keep Starc for now, but would be tempted to bring in Pattinson or Neser which would have the added benefit of strengthening our batting.

 

[KiwiRoo]

Warner too on Aussie soil.

I disagree Paine is a problem. Well, certainly down the order in terms of highest priority to change.

It's not just the players it's the selectors as well.

Don't think they'll do anything about Payne either Choppy. But he's only averaging 31, which is probably like averaging 25 compared to the 70's and 80's as batting averages are much higher in the modern game. But he does do a good job as captain

agree re Warner, he's just world class on Aussie tracks. He can hit the Indian quicks off their length too, They've been very good this series

 

[ChoppyGun]

I like that team Themanbun.

I'd stay with Starc but replace Harris with Pucovski.

Wade very iffy but I prefer him there than opening so it's a good team.

 

[Themanbun]

I like that team Themanbun.

I'd stay with Starc but replace Harris with Pucovski.

Wade very iffy but I prefer him there than opening so it's a good team.

Yeah I'm not sold on Wade as much as I like him. I think he did a decent job while also helping the team out away from his usual 4-5 day batting slot. Probably our second or third best performed batsman so far I think?

I'd also stay with Starc but I'm really not convinced by his bowling of late. Disproportionately cleans up the tail.

 

[7577969923]

For me it should be:

Harris
Warner
Labuschagne
Smith
Wade
Green
Paine
Cummins
Starc (although would consider Pattinson or Neser)
Lyon
Hazelwood

I think Wade deserves another crack in the middle order. Harris did enough to get back in also. I also think Cummins and Hazelwood are somewhat paving over Starc's deficiencies. I'd keep Starc for now, but would be tempted to bring in Pattinson or Neser which would have the added benefit of strengthening our batting.

As much as I like Patto the bowlers are not even close to being the problem and Starc is bowling as well as he ever has. If Patto comes in it has to be for Hazlewood.

Your top 6 looks a lot better. Head has had a lot of chances and never really makes runs that matter. He also gets out the same way a lot because he has a glaring technical fault and international bowlers as good as Bumrah work that out.

I would like to see Pucovski in ahead of Harris but agree that has an element of risk.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Yeah I'm not sold on Wade as much as I like him. I think he did a decent job while also helping the team out away from his usual 4-5 day batting slot. Probably our second or third best performed batsman so far I think?

I'd also stay with Starc but I'm really not convinced by his bowling of late. Disproportionately cleans up the tail.

Wade is a warrior and not just a grinder- he has all the shots as per in 20/20 feats. How he would handle overseas pitches with his technique really worries me but yep he's been far from our worst!

Starc has a massively disproportionate avg to top 6 batsman to tail end - like mid 40s and 10s depending who's fact up........just doubt your two selections are any better.

 

[KiwiRoo]

I like that team Themanbun.

I'd stay with Starc but replace Harris with Pucovski.

Wade very iffy but I prefer him there than opening so it's a good team.

yeah need to stay with Starc. He's got genuine pace and you don't throw that away lightly.

 

[Themanbun]

As much as I like Patto the bowlers are not even close to being the problem and Starc is bowling as well as he ever has. If Patto comes in it has to be for Hazlewood.

Your top 6 looks a lot better. Head has had a lot of chances and never really makes runs that matter. He also gets out the same way a lot because he has a glaring technical fault and international bowlers as good as Bumrah work that out.

I would like to see Pucovski in ahead of Harris but agree that has an element of risk.

I should say I like Travis Head and his moronic ways of getting out after a start remind me of myself. I empathise with him.

But this isn't local cricket. It's the best of the best and you can't have your number 5 batsman making a stupid decision after getting to 20 every single match.

Agreed re: Pucovski, but I want to see him stop falling over to the off side first. He'll probably do alright but given his history I want him to come in as sharp and ready as possible.

 

[7577969923]

Yeah I'm not sold on Wade as much as I like him. I think he did a decent job while also helping the team out away from his usual 4-5 day batting slot. Probably our second or third best performed batsman so far I think?

I'd also stay with Starc but I'm really not convinced by his bowling of late. Disproportionately cleans up the tail.

Starc has 37 wickets at 17.95 in his last 7 tests. He gets openers out with the new ball a lot as well as cleaning up the tail.

 

[Themanbun]

Starc has 37 wickets at 17.95 in his last 7 tests. He gets openers out with the new ball a lot as well as cleaning up the tail.

I stand corrected

 

[ChoppyGun]

Don't think they'll do anything about Payne either Choppy. But he's only averaging 31, which is probably like averaging 25 compared to the 70's and 80's as batting averages are much higher in the modern game. But he does do a good job as captain

agree re Warner, he's just world class on Aussie tracks. He can hit the Indian quicks off their length too, They've been very good this series

Yep his batting is certainly nothing amazing.

Just feel until a keeper is doing much better at State level his Capt after recent debacles is important for stability. He seems very well liked by the group but of course I agree that's not enough in itself.

Warner a bigger loss than many think.

Exactly as you say rather than Burns just looking to survive on our pitches and getting bowlers tails up........Warner is probably inches out of his crease taking Bumrah on - it sets the tone and can be devestating for tourists when it comes off........

 

[ChoppyGun]

I stand corrected

You are both right imo.

Starc is in good form and his avg shows that clearly.

However the original view was he doesn't deliver against top 6 batsmen is correct to - averages over 40 on his career and Warney loves talking about it........ha

 

[ChoppyGun]

Where's bloody Mastermind and his stats when we need him? ; )

 

[Themanbun]

Realistically in Australia we have been blessed in that we've never really needed a bowling all rounder coming in at 8.

We had a keeper averaging 50+ throughout my youth, a number 6 batting all rounder who averaged 40+ and very rarely NEEDED to make runs, as we had Ponting, Hussey, Langer, Hayden, Clarke, etc. putting hundreds on before we lost our 4th wicket.

We had the luxury of playing 4 genuine bowlers (it helped that Warne, Lee, Gillespie could also bat a bit) and a part timer.

But I really feel like we need to shore up that 6-9 in the order. I feel like the modern era, especially with the pink ball and with wickets giving the bowlers a bit more these days (as opposed to the roads of 3-4 years ago) that having a bowling all rounder coming in at no.8 is something we should consider. It's compounded by Paine not being a 40+ batsman.

A lot of the time people look to the top 5-6 who theoretically should be making the runs, but if we have no one in the sheds who can come in and fill those roles, we really need to consider adding some more run making capacity in the early lower order. Batting all the way down to 8 with Cummins coming in at 9 should allow at least someone from the mid-lower order to cash in against the old ball and tiring bowlers.

I think Green has the ability to be a genuine 4th bowler in the future which could allow us to play an extra bat, but he's not quite there yet. I'd sacrifice a little in the bowling stakes if it meant we could bring someone in who can average 25+ from no.8. I've seen Pattinson at district level and really believe he could be that guy, without us losing much in bowling firepower.

 

[ChoppyGun]

yeah need to stay with Starc. He's got genuine pace and you don't throw that away lightly.

Pace can be a liability on slower, spinning decks but in Aust he plays I totally agree.

 

[Themanbun]

Pace can be a liability on slower, spinning decks but in Aust he plays I totally agree.

As long as he's bowling quick he stays. I said before I'd still lean towards keeping him, and after the stats presented above clearly I've under acknowledged his recent record perhaps due to pre conceived bias. I just think when he slows down towards the end of a test, starts bowling 135kph slow, wide ones, that he becomes a bit of a liability. When he's on, he's on, though.

 

[Samsquanch]

India won with only two down. Obviously Hojuman had better things to do today

 

[ChoppyGun]

My mate and I discussed this on Boxing Day and we had a left field idea.

You'll think we're crazy (fair enough!) but Cummins to open.

Assuming he's had enough spell from bowling before changeover he has a very safe technique even against new and short ball.

Him getting a few runs and burning up 50/100+ deliveries at the top to allow us another batsman for depth and when bowlers are tiring.

Means Warner and say a Pucovski could play in future tests to strengthen the batting without dropping anyone but Burns...........

 

[7577969923]

I stand corrected

Cummins is the one who gets most of the important wickets when genuine batsmen are set.

You are both right imo.

Starc is in good form and his avg shows that clearly.

However the original view was he doesn't deliver against top 6 batsmen is correct to - averages over 40 on his career and Warney loves talking about it........ha

Here are his stats by position in the batting order. Good against the openers and deadly against the tail. HAs a great record against left handers as well (avg 17).

The columns are as follows:

Dis	bwd	c fie	c wk	st	lbw	hw	Ave	0s

1st position	2011-2020	35	8	11	7	0	9	0	21.48	9
2nd position	2012-2020	34	5	16	7	0	6	0	22.61	7
3rd position	2013-2019	19	1	5	7	0	6	0	29.36	2
4th position	2012-2019	21	4	9	6	0	2	0	46.61	1
5th position	2011-2020	20	0	7	9	0	4	0	46.85	0
6th position	2013-2020	28	10	6	7	0	4	1	31.67	3
7th position	2012-2020	17	6	8	3	0	0	0	24.23	2
8th position	2012-2019	23	6	9	7	0	1	0	20.86	1
9th position	2011-2020	21	8	5	3	0	5	0	5.52	6
10th position	2012-2019	21	8	6	6	0	1	0	6.66	3
11th position	2012-2019	13	8	2	3	0	0	0	2.61	7

As a point of comparison here are Cummins stats. He is great against the middle order.

1st position	2017-2020	16	1	9	6	0	0	0	31.93	1
2nd position	2011-2020	22	4	10	7	0	1	0	28.72	0
3rd position	2011-2020	18	4	9	5	0	0	0	20.55	5
4th position	2011-2020	21	4	11	4	0	2	0	22.42	4
5th position	2011-2020	17	4	6	5	0	2	0	20.00	2
6th position	2017-2019	6	1	2	2	0	1	0	36.83	0
7th position	2017-2019	14	1	5	7	0	1	0	22.14	1
8th position	2011-2020	15	2	6	7	0	0	0	29.26	1
9th position	2011-2019	11	0	3	8	0	0	0	14.09	1
10th position	2011-2019	9	1	5	3	0	0	0	18.00	3
11th position	2017-2020	4	0	4	0	0	0	0	0.00	4

 

[Themanbun]

Cummins is the one who gets most of the important wickets when genuine batsmen are set.


Here are his stats by position in the batting order. Good against the openers and deadly against the tail. HAs a great record against left handers as well (avg 17).

1st position	2011-2020	35	8	11	7	0	9	0	21.48	9
2nd position	2012-2020	34	5	16	7	0	6	0	22.61	7
3rd position	2013-2019	19	1	5	7	0	6	0	29.36	2
4th position	2012-2019	21	4	9	6	0	2	0	46.61	1
5th position	2011-2020	20	0	7	9	0	4	0	46.85	0
6th position	2013-2020	28	10	6	7	0	4	1	31.67	3
7th position	2012-2020	17	6	8	3	0	0	0	24.23	2
8th position	2012-2019	23	6	9	7	0	1	0	20.86	1
9th position	2011-2020	21	8	5	3	0	5	0	5.52	6
10th position	2012-2019	21	8	6	6	0	1	0	6.66	3
11th position	2012-2019	13	8	2	3	0	0	0	2.61	7

As a point of comparison here are Cummins stats. He is great against the middle order.

1st position	2017-2020	16	1	9	6	0	0	0	31.93	1
2nd position	2011-2020	22	4	10	7	0	1	0	28.72	0
3rd position	2011-2020	18	4	9	5	0	0	0	20.55	5
4th position	2011-2020	21	4	11	4	0	2	0	22.42	4
5th position	2011-2020	17	4	6	5	0	2	0	20.00	2
6th position	2017-2019	6	1	2	2	0	1	0	36.83	0
7th position	2017-2019	14	1	5	7	0	1	0	22.14	1
8th position	2011-2020	15	2	6	7	0	0	0	29.26	1
9th position	2011-2019	11	0	3	8	0	0	0	14.09	1
10th position	2011-2019	9	1	5	3	0	0	0	18.00	3
11th position	2017-2020	4	0	4	0	0	0	0	0.00	4

Agree re Cummins but I feel like stats don't fully tell his story. He was often brought on first change even when he was our best bowler, when the openers (if they made it to facing him) were already set.

I also feel like that's how Starc got his tail destroying reputation. There was a while there where I felt he was brought on against the tail for the potential to take some confidence boosting wickets. He did a good job and that became his forte, but it meant guys like Cummins missing out on the opportunity to target those easy wickets, too.

But they are good tables regardless. I'd be interested to see Cummins record against the top order since he has finally reclaimed the new rock.

 

[ChoppyGun]

Thanks for the Stats.

Well why do the commentators bang on about Starcs poor record against batsman than the tail? Are their figures wrong?

 

[7577969923]

Agree re Cummins but I feel like stats don't fully tell his story. He was often brought on first change even when he was our best bowler, when the openers (if they made it to facing him) were already set.

I also feel like that's how Starc got his tail destroying reputation. There was a while there where I felt he was brought on against the tail for the potential to take some confidence boosting wickets. He did a good job and that became his forte, but it meant guys like Cummins missing out on the opportunity to target those easy wickets, too.

But they are good tables regardless. I'd be interested to see Cummins record against the top order since he has finally reclaimed the new rock.

Agree with all these points. Starc sweeping up the tale became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fast left arm with a good yorker and a good bouncer will trouble most guys down the order.

 

[Themanbun]

7577969923 are you perhaps able to pull up strike rates for each of those bowlers in relation to the number they're bowling to?

That's just out of curiosity. I have no idea where you're getting these from but I like it.