Opinion Cripps, Parker and Davies - your time is nigh

[Janus]

There's an inherent passivity to the phrase "when they've been available to us". We do not need to wait for established talls to become available to us. It is possible to draft fresh talls. You rightly point out that we haven't been allocated the high picks needed to go fishing for the best talls, but we have carried both established players and other picks that could have been traded directly or packaged for high(er) picks. The thing a counterparty is doing everytime we ship picks for an established player.

We also need to be careful talking about years like 2014. Yes, we drafted three talls, but the highest was Dougal Howard, who we took at the end of the third round, and there was barely a full round's worth of selections made after him. They're picks made way out into speculative territory, and we missed Harris Andrews, Zaine Cordy, and Jeremy Finlayson. Say what you will about the latter two, but they've each carved out better careers than Austin, Palmer, and Frampton combined.

You mean Brisbane academy selection Harris Andrews, Bulldogs F/S Zaine Cordy, and GWS academy selection Jeremy Finlayson?

None of those players were available to us.

 

[agmsy]

You mean Brisbane academy selection Harris Andrews, Bulldogs F/S Zaine Cordy, and GWS academy selection Jeremy Finlayson?

None of those players were available to us.

GWS didn't even have to match a bid for Finlayson.

Did we boycott the F/S and Academy meeting that year, or was it just spending both of our useful picks on a single established tall that saw us ferreting around for talls at the end of the draft?

 

[Janus]

GWS didn't even have to match a bid for Finlayson.

Did we boycott the F/S and Academy meeting that year, or was it just spending both of our useful picks on a single established tall that saw us ferreting around for talls at the end of the draft?

We didn't have the picks.

P.S. Howard and Austin were GWS academy players. So no, we didn't boycott the Academy meeting that year

 

[P4Life]

So the Team that has won the most games over the last 2 years and made 2 Prelims has recruiters who are no good.
We have plenty of problems at the moment REH, but not sure piling it on that Department is warranted.

 

[Chachi]

So the Team that has won the most games over the last 2 years and made 2 Prelims has recruiters who are no good.
We have plenty of problems at the moment REH, but not sure piling it on that Department is warranted.

100% agree. These 3 aren’t the problem. In fact Davies is one of the few guys at the club to make a tough call on Ken. He’s got some genuine c@@t in him.
I still believe the list is good, the game plan, particularly Forward entry is garbage.
Our coaches box is rubbish. I mean Lobbe got drafted after Boaky, was a dud footballer, proved nothing as a coach but finds himself in the box. Last night I saw him giving Trav instruction and I thought are you fu$$ing kiddin me.
Chad, well enough said.
Bass controls the most inefficient and poorly organised section.
There’s the bloke from GWS who I don’t even know his fuc$&$g name.
Yet we have Silk on the books who is commentating On ch7 on game day ffs.
Personally I think this thread is not even close to the issue for us.
We need a clean sweep through the box and the management if they don’t have the balls to do it.

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

Worthwhile talls we've missed by trading picks:

• Curnow
• Doedee
• Ben McKay
• CCJ
• Oscar Allen
• Petty

 

[all seeing eye]

Dont think we have been to bad in recruitment compared to industry averages. Problem seems to be that we are chasing our tails, we needed to boost the mids now we need to catch up with our talls.

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

Dont think we have been to bad in recruitment compared to industry averages. Problem seems to be that we are chasing our tails, we needed to boost the mids now we need to catch up with our talls.

Our tall defenders are shocking, both in seniors and prospects.

Our tall forwards have talent but the system they have been developed in is absolutely shocking. Who knows what damage that has done in the long term.

We need to recruit actual topline midfielders, not rely on fwd-mid or def-mid part timers to FTE their way to building a midfield.

Apparently we also need to draft more rucks because our ready to go back up in Hayes isn't deserving of a game despite the number one being underdone and being down a tall or two.

Flankers can be picked up for nothing.

TL;DR we have some talented players but our list build sucks. We're going nowhere.

 

[ibd77]

Or tall forwards have talent but the system they have been developed in is absolutely shocking. Who knows what damage that has done in the long term.

Some fans are seeing Hinkley a kin to Ross Lyon and we all know how damaged Fremantle & St Kilda where after his reign was over. It could take an ruthless rebuild to clear the slate of damaged players to turn the game style overnight or we wait for the current generation of players to purge through.

 

[ctpower]

I think Parker has done a pretty good job given our desire to trade away a bunch of decent picks to creep up the draft.

I have no problem with that strategy.
I can’t see how you beat teams like Melborne and Carlton who have stock piled top ten picks for years.
You need stars. Probably 8-10 to win a flag.
There aren’t many secrets left in the AFL draft so you need high end picks.

 

[Jonts]

Rockliff was excellent in 2020 and a big part of getting as far as we did that year. If he or any of the other mids bothers turning up in the prelim then maybe we go on and win the whole thing and that signing is seen as a massive success. Fine lines.

I'd go one further and say of he grabs hartletts handball over the line we win

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

From memory, we have drafted 1 KPD in the past 15 years in the first 2 rounds of the draft.

That being Clurey in the 30s and before that Chaplin in 2003....

We have not invested in this part of the field for 15+ years and that is simply incredible in itself and pure incompetence from the list management team.

 

[Long live PAFC]

I have no problem with that strategy.
I can’t see how you beat teams like Melborne and Carlton who have stock piled top ten picks for years.
You need stars. Probably 8-10 to win a flag.
There aren’t many secrets left in the AFL draft so you need high end picks.

Yea ultimately this is the issue isn’t it? Our players are just not as good as Melbourne’s, the bulldogs’, the lions and only half match up against Carlton, Geelong and Sydney. Those sides are just better. Richmond, Hawthorn and West Coast won by system, with some stars in the right places, that’s the only way port come close to matching though other sides.

If you look at our stars really it’s Wines these days. Gray is passed it, Boak is a champion but not a star. Dixon likewise a champion. Butters, Rozee, Georgiades and Duursma are talents but yet to be realised. Lycett, McKenzie, Jonas, DBJ, Marshall, Amon and SPP are good, honest triers. You’re taking Dangerfield, Martin, Bont, Cripps, etc over Wines.

So maybe the list management has been fine but we just haven’t been able to get the stars

 

[TeeKray]

I'm happy with not using premium picks on key defenders. Positions get harder to play as you move further towards goal ergo backs just aren't as valuable as midfielders and forwards. Any club worth its salt should be able to unearth good key defenders from later picks. Take Geelong as an example. Stewart was pick 40, Henry rookie draft, Blicavs rookie draft. Our own Aliir Aliir

21

Aliir Aliir

Age

29

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.2

4star

K

9.3

4star

HB

5.9

4star

M

5.2

5star

T

1.9

4star

MG

240.9

4star

D

11.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

D

13.0

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

158.4

3star

was pick 44. Harris Andrews

31

Harris Andrews

Age

27

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

151.7

2star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

3star

D

9.8

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.8

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

94.0

2star

pick 61. The list goes on.

 

[Powerade 08]

Worthwhile talls we've missed by trading picks:

• Curnow
• Doedee
• Ben McKay
• CCJ
• Oscar Allen
• Petty

Could have had any tall we wanted over the last 5 years basically. We've been prepared to trade everything away to move up drafts. We just don't want them.

 

[PrisonBars4life]

People give the Crows a tonne of s**t for the Jones and McHenry picks in 2018, but Rozee over King and Smith is looking like the worst mistake of the lot.

Yes and no. There are plenty of consensus picks that have turned out to be dogshit. The thing that pisses me off the most is the the arrogance. Twice in 4 drafts we have pissed points up a wall because we 'just had to have' a player and it looks like we might have buggered it up a 2nd time. We absolutely set picks on fire in 2018 to get upto 5. We traded 23, 30,35 and 49 to upgrade 11 to 5 in 2 trades. We also got Sam Mayes in return who I rate, but apparently we don't because we never play him or play him in some bullshit position. We then go and trade a guy who has beaten most of the best young ruckmen in the competition, our 1st and 2nd for a guy who frankly has done nothing of what we were told he would do (I'm not blaming him he didn't trade anyone away). We were told super quick, quicker than just about anyone in the AFL and elite disposal. He sprayed everything in his debut and played poorly in the sanfl last week (Again not blaming him just stating that the recruiters were so confident that they lit picks on fire for him so they must have thought he was a plug and play option). We have 17 million flankers and barely a prick over 6'3 that is fully fit after moving 2 on for a bag of chips.

I don't believe anyone other than Carlton (with Stocker) has done this. There are generally good players all throughout the 1st round and you will never know until 5 years down the track anyway. It's just stupidity. On top of this we have a knack of giving 'extra' in trades whilst rarely getting it. 2nd + 3rd for Fanta is dogshit. Essendon don't like it? They can get ****ed, they sook about everything, they're always hard done by. We gave the absolute top of the market for Paddy Ryder with ASADA hanging over his head. Who cares he's the missing piece, we gotta have him even if we overpay. He played 1 good year and 1 AA year in that time while we played in exactly 1 final with him in the side. Essendon still carry on like dumb campaigners about it, that we underpaid and exploited them.

Then we have brought in spud after spud that have done absolutely nothing. Absolute list clogging spuds. Who are they.

Dixon? - well not him - but he has been paid 600k+ his career at port as a guy with dodgy knees that the gold coast didn't want. He had dodgy ankles (which we knew about) the whole time. Traded pick 10 and a 2nd for him. - break even - he delivered at best what he should have.

Ryder - break even - 600k+, 1st + 2nd for 2.5 good years out of 5.

Lycett - why did we need him - we already sold the farm to get Ryder - having the 2 ruckman with 2 developing rucks have created nothing but problems and ended with us trading ryder for nothing with Dougal Howard. Lycett might barely outlast Ryder in the AFL.

Aliir - got a good deal on a guy who had to play out of position due to injuries. - a win

Mckenzie - have got decent mileage due to cost - win

other than these guys who else have we traded for other than a bunch of ******* spuds - Rockliff played his worst football at Port and played 1 good year. Tompas, Watts, Trengrove, Lindsay Thomas, Dumont, Motlop. If they paid out motlops contract 2-3 years ago when he was playing some of the softest football ever played by a port player, we would have lost nothing other than a quick burst in the QF in 2020. He's a deadset spud whose been on good money and gets a game for god knows what reason. Fantasia is quite possibly completely cooked (which we knew), Finlayson looks like another spud we have weighing us down for 3 years. Basically if a South Australian is interested in coming back to SA, we just have to have him. Meanwhile, a player of genuine need goes to the crows from a team that we gave a free kick to in Ladhams.

List Management don't get a pass at all. They got lucky that AA was underrated and poorly used at Sydney. They got lucky that some players turned into spuds inexplicably.

• Wingard - in fairness we got alot from this trade either way but he basically did a reverse rockliff at Hawthorn.
• Polec - was just about our best player when we left - the only reason we let him walk was we couldn't/ wouldn't match the crazy offer North Made. Just luck not good management from us. Concerns were based on probability of his body holding together 5 years not his ability disappearing.

Dougal howard + ryder - alot to give away for a 1st rounder - 2x KPPs one of which we paid a 1st and 2nd for. Mitch is nice but a 200cm defender in their prime instead of a 19 yr old we refused to play in finals might have been the difference in 2020. Mitch still has to develop into a very good player and stay with us to win this trade.

There's alot of rubbish trades there and some good luck covers up the cracks.

The final question I would ask is why are they so afraid of using 2nd rounders. They give them away as if they are worthless. I don't even watch juniors and I could have a decent strike rate from the first round using Cal Twoomey's draft guide. Their ******* job is to find quality in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If they can't or don't want to do it, then they can * off.

 

[Saltiga]

If Cripps, Davies and Parker need to go because the recruiting and list management has been that bad then surely Ken deserves a 5 year contract extension as reward for getting a shocking list to two prelims?

 

[Schulzenfest]

I'm happy with not using premium picks on key defenders. Positions get harder to play as you move further towards goal ergo backs just aren't as valuable as midfielders and forwards. Any club worth its salt should be able to unearth good key defenders from later picks. Take Geelong as an example. Stewart was pick 40, Henry rookie draft, Blicavs rookie draft. Our own Aliir Aliir was pick 44. Harris Andrews pick 61. The list goes on.

And Fischer McAsey pick 6.

 

[Long live PAFC]

Perhaps less list management and more development or how they are played but what are we doing with Hayes, Skinner, Pasini, Williams and Dumont?

• why did Skinner play ahead of Pasini? Skinner was surely listed for absolute emergencies, we didn’t really think a player with three knee recons could be a long term player? If skinner is better than Pasini, why is Pas still on the list and why the 3 year deal?
• why is Hayes not playing? Two Rucks last year, surely that was planned for this year? We literally traded out Hayes’ competition for a spot last year and would know by know if Sammy was up to it
• what’s happening with Williams? Guy seems miles off and McEntee and Frederick are ahead of him…
• why did we list Dumont? What role was he to play on the list?

 

[PowerLil]

Yea ultimately this is the issue isn’t it? Our players are just not as good as Melbourne’s, the bulldogs’, the lions and only half match up against Carlton, Geelong and Sydney. Those sides are just better. Richmond, Hawthorn and West Coast won by system, with some stars in the right places, that’s the only way port come close to matching though other sides.

If you look at our stars really it’s Wines these days. Gray is passed it, Boak is a champion but not a star. Dixon likewise a champion. Butters, Rozee, Georgiades and Duursma are talents but yet to be realised. Lycett, McKenzie, Jonas, DBJ, Marshall, Amon and SPP are good, honest triers. You’re taking Dangerfield, Martin, Bont, Cripps, etc over Wines.

So maybe the list management has been fine but we just haven’t been able to get the stars

Dixon a champion?

 

[Long live PAFC]

Dixon a champion?

Yea he is. Walks into any side in the league. Almost 200 games and over 300 goals. Has an AA jumper to his name. Read my post though, didn’t imply he was the GOAT but is definitely a champion at this club and is in our best and most important handful of players alongside Aliir, wines, Boak and butters.

 

[GremioPower]

2017 post-season is long enough ago to assess now I think, with 2 of those two having retired. We start with them three then.
Rockliff statistically declined from his time at Brisbane, but it was a pretty bare cabinet at that team, so to move to Port and dip to averaging 20, 28 and 22 disposals in his 3 proper seasons here isn't a bad result. When we aim to build a winning team it just so happens that players coming from weaker teams don't have to be the star and will play their role. Maybe he was on too much money, but that's what you have to do to get free agents to come to your club especially when Carlton put forward an offer.

Watts only had one proper season, and having a career ending injury in his second game of his second season with us isn't necessarily the fault of list management, so when we look at his sole full-ish season of 2018, there's 18 goals in 19 games. Down from 38 and 22 in his final 2 seasons at Melbourne. No Hogan in that last season of 2017 either so from 22 goals as the sole key forward to 18 as a backup to Dixon is an upgrade with that context in mind. Sure it sucks that he only got one year with us but what can you do about the injury? The decision to pick him up was smart at the time and made me think we would contend for a flag with Dixon-Watts-Marshall in the forward line and sure enough West Coast win the flag with a triple key forward set up so my thinking was correct. $500k a year roughly (Melbourne paying about 15% too) but when we paid him out after 2020 we didn't have to pay that full amount so there's some consolation if you weren't happy with him.

Motlop now, we s**t on him a lot and I'm guilty of it, but his first year with us was his 10th year and it's currently his 14th year. We are far more dysfunctional than the Geelong sides he was a part of and so he isn't in the same system as Geelong up forward, we were very defensive in his first years with us and as such he's averaged 11 goals a year for the 4 years before us. We have a dependence on one forward at a time so it's bound to happen. This is none of list management's fault and even still, Adelaide supposedly offered 600k and we got him for unders so that's something list management actually did regarding him and to me that sounds like a win there. Has been best 22 for a good chunk of his time here as well.

On top of that too, Jackson Trengove out to WB as a RFA, but bringing in Jack Trengove and Trent McKenzie as DFA's? Jack was brought in for one year and played 3 games which was a nice feel good story and McKenzie has been a mainstay in the backline once he broke into the 22, was huge in 2020 especially, so there's that too.

After a 5th place finish and shock exit in the EF we'd be prepping to move to the next level and they were all pieces to polish what was already a decent side and move to the next level. It didn't pan out that way but not because of list management, because of the fault of the coaching staff. Even still I go on. Those first three are the big ones that people point to from 2017 but even our trades from that year were mostly pretty good.

OUT: Jarman Impey and pick 67, IN: pick 31, pick 61 and Hawthorn's future fourth.
Not awesome, but Impey desperately wanted out and with a hand behind our back we got the best deal we could.
OUT: Brendon Ah Chee and hawthorn's future fourth, IN: West Coast's future third
Much of a muchness, Ah Chee was never gonna develop great (and didn't at West Coast either) so no loss there at all.
OUT: Aaron Young, IN Adelaide's future fourth (from GC)
Better than delisting him for nothing, no big loss for us and wouldn't have gotten games here so that's the best outcome we could have gotten.
OUT: Logan Austin and our future fourth, IN: St Kilda's future third
Austin was never gonna get games here so better than delisting for nothing, and the pick ends up an upgrade for us.
OUT: Matthew Lobbe, IN: pick 95
Carlton pick up the final two years of Lobbe's 500-600k/year that was a mistake (signed right as Davies came in, so I'm assuming that was already planned before he was there), yeah we got a nothing pick but the contract is off our hands so that's a win.
OUT: Pick 34 and Adelaide's future fourth, IN: St Kilda's future second, pick 59 and pick 63
Pick swap, whatever, but I think the future second helped us get Rozee indirectly (could be wrong but I think I'm right) which was the plan initially so W
OUT: two future thirds, IN: pick 46, North's future third
Pick 46 was Hayes who is yet to debut but that's because of Ken's allergy to bringing a new ruck into the side. Idk.

Draft now, we were looking to contend in 2018 so only late picks but Sam Hayes at 47, Kane Farrell at 51, Jake Patmore at 58, Joel Garner at 60, Dom Barry at 61. Those last 3 are long gone (as expected for late 50s-early 60s picks) but Hayes not debuting is a Ken issue and Farrell has looked nice for the most part when he's been in the side. Exceeds expectations for a pick 51. Lindsay Thomas as a nice story in the rookie draft, does his part as a mentor at the Maggies and gets his little homecoming send-off, plus knocking out a Selwood is always a nice footnote on the legacy, (shame it wasn't Joel LOL).

To me this doesn't come off as a bust though. If anything has been a bust it certainly wasn't the fault of list management, it's been improper coaching since 2015, predating even this off-season. But to write these moves off as a bust is just lazy and inaccurate. Worst case on those trades is a breakeven and the "failures" of FAs would be very overstated. On the list of problems, list management is far from the top and has been pretty bloody good aside from the last offseason. Give them their credit please.

 

[thundercloud]

View attachment 1367183

Great bit of list management analysis fizzler. Re the hinkley criticsm and analysis i think that the character denigration has been appauling

 

[PrisonBars4life]

Yea he is. Walks into any side in the league. Almost 200 games and over 300 goals. Has an AA jumper to his name. Read my post though, didn’t imply he was the GOAT but is definitely a champion at this club and is in our best and most important handful of players alongside Aliir, wines, Boak and butters.

Reality is very few people have managed a career as good as his playing injured half the time.

 

[Dark24]

Reactionary thread. Port's recruiting and list management has probably been the best performed of any of our staffing departments, and would compare favourably to most other clubs over the same period. They are human, and on early impression look to have made an absolute blunder with Ladhams trade, although it's been reported that there was more to that trade than meets the eye.