Cronulla. Pride

[stompie]

Intolerance is not to be tolerated.

The rioters/protesters would say that they were not tolerating the intolerance of the Lebonese. The Lebonese that retaliated would say they were not tolerating the intolerance of the rioters/protesters. As you would know from the overseas experience, prejudice has a cyclic nature as both sides tend to say they will not tolerate the intolerance of the other.

In any case, tolerance basically means you should turn a blind eye to your prejudice. Wouldn't it be better to either deal with your prejudices, or try to enlighten the people whose cultural practices you dislike? If the later is your go, then maybe your task is to think about persuading people, instead of pissing them off.

 

[Fire]

Thank you for proving my point

Hahaha, thanks for that, you made my night.

 

[Fire]

The rioters/protesters would say that they were not tolerating the intolerance of the Lebonese. The Lebonese that retaliated would say they were not tolerating the intolerance of the rioters/protesters. As you would know from the overseas experience, prejudice has a cyclic nature as both sides tend to say they will not tolerate the intolerance of the other.

In any case, tolerance basically means you should turn a blind eye to your prejudice. Wouldn't it be better to either deal with your prejudices, or try to enlighten the people whose cultural practices you dislike? If the later is your go, then maybe your task is to think about persuading people, instead of pissing them off.

I think you missed what I was trying to say.

There will always be intolerant individuals. I am not calling those who were sick of Lebanese gangs causing trouble on Sydney's beaches and wanted to make a stand intolerant. I am calling those who chose to interoperate this as justification to make a stand against Lebanese intolerant. (and then vice versa, thus creating a while big discriminatory cycle like you are saying.) There are always going to be intolerant people, because people flawed.

My point is that the rest of society should hold a stigma towards such beliefs.

 

[plugger47]

The ones that caused violence? Hell no, are you ashamed of the people who turned up and DIDN'T cause any violence?

And are you ashamed of the ones who turned up and didn't do anything to stop the violence? Or is bashing defenceless kids an acceptable spectator sport for you? There were real acts of courage by the people who stepped in and tried to shield and protect people who were being bashed because of their appearance. They were the police and ONE young bloke who shielded a kid of "middle eastern appearance" who was being belted after he had been knocked to the ground

 

[plugger47]

I grew up in Bankstown and had all my schooling there, from 1985 to 1998. The Aussie kids did it tough, and It's impossible to describe how hard it was. I find it hard to think about these days. My mates and I were was bashed and abused, By lebanese muslims, I was told I was a dumb skip, and that Lebs were better than me, and whenever we stood up for ourselves we were bashed. It wasn't just us aussies who copped it, it was the vietnamese and anyone else who wasn't a leb. And no wonder the lebs think they are king ********, they were getting preached to by guys like Shiek Hilaly.

What happened in Cronulla was building for 10 years, All those years of torment from the Lebanese muslims became too much. In my social circles, which spread across a fair demographic, the Lebanese muslims are not liked at all, I've not heard a good word about them, I have heard lots of bad words though. Christian Lebanese on the other hand do it tough because most people confuse them with muslims.

Cronulla will happen again unless their is a dramatic change in the behaviour of these gangs.

Mate don't know where you have been through those years but the worst gang violence that occured in Sydney was between two gangs in the 1980's. It was called the Milperra Massacre and was fought by two bikie gangs of anglo origin. You have a shocking memory or is it just blind prejudice?

 

[stompie]

I think you missed what I was trying to say.

There will always be intolerant individuals. I am not calling those who were sick of Lebanese gangs causing trouble on Sydney's beaches and wanted to make a stand intolerant. I am calling those who chose to interoperate this as justification to make a stand against Lebanese intolerant. (and then vice versa, thus creating a while big discriminatory cycle like you are saying.) There are always going to be intolerant people, because people flawed.

My point is that the rest of society should hold a stigma towards such beliefs.

Humans are not flawed. To the contrary, prejudice stems from the strength of humans to be able to work together with a social mindset more akin to dogs rather than cats. It stems from individuals feeling part of the group, looking out for other individuals in the group, picking them up when they fall down, sacrificing themselves for the good of others, and defending the group against threats. It is because people working together can achieve more than people working alone that humans have achieved some incredible things. Take a look at an AFL club. Where would it be if it didn’t have fans cheering encouragement, and belittling opposition, and players prepared to show some pride in their jumper?

There is nothing wrong with people identifying with groups, and seeing those groups as superior. If they didn’t, then humans would still be living in caves, and social evolution would not be possible. The problems come when the group chooses to go in a direction that will ultimately lead to its own destruction, or chooses to go there in a fashion that can only result in failure. However, these problems don’t come from any instinctual flaw, rather they come from people just not thinking about what the goal of their group should be, and the best way to achieve that goal.

Personally, I think some groups that tend to become overly focussed on the actions of others, rather than themselves, tend to fall into the trap of fighting for something without any goal in mind. I would put left-wingers, cronulla rioters/protesters and people who hate intolerance into this category. What is Australia's national goal? I don't think many people in Australia would be able to answer that. And if you have no goal, people tend to just fight amongst themselves as they criticise the actions of others.

 

[celtic_pride]

BTW most of the Lebanese Muslims who 'supposedly' indulged in that kind of activity that annoyed a few rednecks in Cronulla and the Sutherland shire, were born in Australia !!!!

It's a cultural issue, and yes it was wrong (being of that background myself) but I resent the insulting and tarring of all lebanese and Muslim people.

You do realise that comments and insults like that really ticks me off and makes me want to leave this country and never come back (my fiancee lives in the UK, so I'm moving there soon, and they don't have a problem with the Lebanese or Muslims at all)

Why should I have to apologise though for being born into that 'cultural' background ?
It is wrong, and violence and hatred breeds violence, but really have any of you guys actually set down and had a normal convosation with a lebanese and/or Muslim ?
I seriously now don't feel welcome in this country anymore, and if everyone is going to have this kind of attitude, there is no way I'm going to raise my children in this kind of hostile enviroment, so I'm really looking foward to moving to England, where at least I don't have to hide the fact I'm lebanese and not be insulted for it ...

 

[iceman]

BTW most of the Lebanese Muslims who 'supposedly' indulged in that kind of activity that annoyed a few rednecks in Cronulla and the Sutherland shire, were born in Australia !!!!

It's a cultural issue, and yes it was wrong (being of that background myself) but I resent the insulting and tarring of all lebanese and Muslim people.

You do realise that comments and insults like that really ticks me off and makes me want to leave this country and never come back (my fiancee lives in the UK, so I'm moving there soon, and they don't have a problem with the Lebanese or Muslims at all)

Why should I have to apologise though for being born into that 'cultural' background ?
It is wrong, and violence and hatred breeds violence, but really have any of you guys actually set down and had a normal convosation with a lebanese and/or Muslim ?
I seriously now don't feel welcome in this country anymore, and if everyone is going to have this kind of attitude, there is no way I'm going to raise my children in this kind of hostile enviroment, so I'm really looking foward to moving to England, where at least I don't have to hide the fact I'm lebanese and not be insulted for it ...

Excellent post

 

[stickman11]

(my fiancee lives in the UK, so I'm moving there soon, and they don't have a problem with the Lebanese or Muslims at all)
.

Are you quite sure about this?? There must be another UK I don't know about.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

BTW most of the Lebanese Muslims who 'supposedly' indulged in that kind of activity that annoyed a few rednecks in Cronulla and the Sutherland shire, were born in Australia !!!!

It's a cultural issue, and yes it was wrong (being of that background myself) but I resent the insulting and tarring of all lebanese and Muslim people.

You do realise that comments and insults like that really ticks me off and makes me want to leave this country and never come back (my fiancee lives in the UK, so I'm moving there soon, and they don't have a problem with the Lebanese or Muslims at all)

Why should I have to apologise though for being born into that 'cultural' background ?
It is wrong, and violence and hatred breeds violence, but really have any of you guys actually set down and had a normal convosation with a lebanese and/or Muslim ?
I seriously now don't feel welcome in this country anymore, and if everyone is going to have this kind of attitude, there is no way I'm going to raise my children in this kind of hostile enviroment, so I'm really looking foward to moving to England, where at least I don't have to hide the fact I'm lebanese and not be insulted for it ...

Im with you buddy. if we are gonna get continually ridiculed all because of some irresponsible parents who make their children into little delinquent pricks well ill be damned. i come from a very well off family that has lived here for 30 years and love this country more than their homelands. its unfair i have to cop it being with a bit of lebanese heritage being called or my family members called a rapist, etc etc. the amount of criticism and discrimination we get just cos we have a dot of lebanese heritage just makes myself and others feel unsafe in this country. id like to thank the howard govt, the media especially anything owned by news corp and to those ********ed up families in the east who think allowing their children do anything and dont give a rats arse about them either for making us feel like an oppressed minority.

funny how those kids video recorded their bashings. just to show how ********en stupid they are. whats even more stupid they bloody upload it on youtube. for what showing your pride? more like showing how literally ********ed up they are.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

BTW most of the Lebanese Muslims who 'supposedly' indulged in that kind of activity that annoyed a few rednecks in Cronulla and the Sutherland shire, were born in Australia !!!!

It's a cultural issue, and yes it was wrong (being of that background myself) but I resent the insulting and tarring of all lebanese and Muslim people.

You do realise that comments and insults like that really ticks me off and makes me want to leave this country and never come back (my fiancee lives in the UK, so I'm moving there soon, and they don't have a problem with the Lebanese or Muslims at all)

Why should I have to apologise though for being born into that 'cultural' background ?
It is wrong, and violence and hatred breeds violence, but really have any of you guys actually set down and had a normal convosation with a lebanese and/or Muslim ?
I seriously now don't feel welcome in this country anymore, and if everyone is going to have this kind of attitude, there is no way I'm going to raise my children in this kind of hostile enviroment, so I'm really looking foward to moving to England, where at least I don't have to hide the fact I'm lebanese and not be insulted for it ...

Sorry can't agree there.

There are a hell of alot of people in England that don't like Muslims because it's tied in with Pakistanis.

In England the Lebanese aren't that great in numbers.

And it's not getting better over there it's getting worse.


It shouldn't be forgotten there are far right wing parties that hold political seats at varying levels of government.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Medusla lives there

 

[WA ROO]

BTW most of the Lebanese Muslims who 'supposedly' indulged in that kind of activity that annoyed a few rednecks in Cronulla and the Sutherland shire, were born in Australia !!!!

You do realise that comments and insults like that really ticks me off and makes me want to leave this country and never come back (my fiancee lives in the UK, so I'm moving there soon, and they don't have a problem with the Lebanese or Muslims at all)

SUPPOSEDLY
5 years of organized racist,bigotted and misogynstic attacks is not SUPPOSEDLY
As for no problems with muslims in the UK
Guess again

 

[celtic_pride]

SUPPOSEDLY
5 years of organized racist,bigotted and misogynstic attacks is not SUPPOSEDLY
As for no problems with muslims in the UK
Guess again

Actually to be fair, I was wrong about the Muslim and lebanese issue (with the issues of terrorism is more rife then political issues of the youth)

But still though, why tar everyone with the same brush though ?
The attacks of the youth up in Sydney is wrong, but it really is a cultural and understanding issue, but to be fair, a minority of anglo-Australians do appear to have an massive grudge against people from Lebanese and/or Muslim Backgrounds, and I do feel as though my family background is being persecuted by the acts of a few people.
Show me the evidence btw of 5 years of organised racisted and misogynstic attacks btw, there has been 2 high profile rape cases in Sydney, plus an incidnent involving Jeff Fenech, but other then that, i do believe that the whole Lebanese gang syndrome in Sydney has been grossly mis-informed by petty ****************s esp on Channel 7 and Today Tonight.

Where is the ratio of racist attacks on Aboriginal and/or Asian or African people by white anglo Australian's ???

The hypocrisy of it is astounding ...
The lebanese in Australia have never produced an Ivan Milat or Martin Bryant either.
We're a bloody easy target at the moment that's how I feel.

 

[stompie]

Im with you buddy. if we are gonna get continually ridiculed all because of some irresponsible parents who make their children into little delinquent pricks well ill be damned. i come from a very well off family that has lived here for 30 years and love this country more than their homelands. its unfair i have to cop it being with a bit of lebanese heritage being called or my family members called a rapist, etc etc. the amount of criticism and discrimination we get just cos we have a dot of lebanese heritage just makes myself and others feel unsafe in this country. id like to thank the howard govt, the media especially anything owned by news corp and to those ********ed up families in the east who think allowing their children do anything and dont give a rats arse about them either for making us feel like an oppressed minority.

funny how those kids video recorded their bashings. just to show how ********en stupid they are. whats even more stupid they bloody upload it on youtube. for what showing your pride? more like showing how literally ********ed up they are.

I think it is fair enough to make the group responsible for the actions of the minorities that give them a bad name. It means that you have to do something to fix the problem. It happens to all of us. I was in China during the protests/riots, and the media used them to portray all Australians as racists. To play up the racism angle, they even said that 'wog' was an Australian term for 'immigrant'. Someone then used the riots/protests to argue that I was a racist as he tried to steal my girlfriend.

It was quite unfair considering that it was a few troublemakers amongst many others, on one beach, on one day, in one city, yet all of us got the blame for it. However, if all of us hadn't been blamed, then we wouldn't even be talking about it now, and no one would be trying to deal with the problem.

 

[Blues_Man]

The hypocrisy of it is astounding ...
The lebanese in Australia have never produced an Ivan Milat or Martin Bryant either.
We're a bloody easy target at the moment that's how I feel.

Ivan Milat and martyn Bryant were sick individuals .
seeing images of gangs of Lebanese disrespecting our country and women makes all Lebanese targetts . which is wrong ...but i think your anger should be aimed toward these low life scum who give all lebanese a bad name .

It's only natural for people to be alienated from Muslims when they see constant news film of terrorists attacks being carried out by muslims .

 

[PA HOG]

IN my opinion this was a proud day for all of us. Standing up against the rapists and thugs that walked the beaches. I tip my hat of to the proud Aussies who walked that day.

Other thoughts?

Your notion might be right if the participants were a reasonable cross-section of Australian society. They weren't.

 

[Alvin Teal]

Ivan Milat and martyn Bryant were sick individuals .
.

Milat was, definitely. But he was nowhere near the league of Bevan Spencer von Einem or James Miller. Particularly von Einem.

I'n not sure if Bryant - or for that matter, Julian Knight - were sick individuals, in the true sense of the word.
Weak of character maybe, but I'm not sure about sick.

On topic, anyone who lived in East Brunswick / Northcote area of Melbourne in the early 1980s would know about the viciousness and brutality of Lebanese gangs.
The frequent clashes in Lygon St between the Lebanese Tigers and Italian Stallians were one thing - and the fact that anyone walking alone on the eastern side of the northern part of Lygon St towards Coburg was ' fair game ' to the constant marauding gangs of Lebanese, was enough to make anyone regard Arab looking people with suspicion.

 

[Fire]

Humans are not flawed.

I disagree. Humans have many flaws. A person has flaws. People have flaws. Of course, what exactly a 'flaw' is will be determined by the beholder.

There is nothing wrong with people identifying with groups,

Agree 100%

and seeing those groups as superior.

Disagree 100%. This is where all the problems lie. "I am right, so if you disagree, you must therefore be wrong". Obviously, opinions on issues will differ between groups, and you will think that you are 'right' in your interpretation of the issue, but to view your answer as 'superior' undermines alternate views, and leads to conflict.

The problems come when the group chooses to go in a direction that will ultimately lead to its own destruction, or chooses to go there in a fashion that can only result in failure. However, these problems don’t come from any instinctual flaw, rather they come from people just not thinking about what the goal of their group should be, and the best way to achieve that goal.

Not necessarily. A leader of a group can mislead people to go down a path which they are unaware. This would suggest a flaw on behalf of the leader and the followers.

Another problem could arise when a group chose to go into a direction that will ultimately lead in another group's destruction, or chooses to go there in a fashion that will lead to conflict with other groups, even if they are not necessarily a part of the destination.

I like the general gist of what you are saying, but there is more to it than that.

Personally, I think some groups that tend to become overly focussed on the actions of others, rather than themselves, tend to fall into the trap of fighting for something without any goal in mind. I would put left-wingers, Cronulla rioters/protesters and people who hate intolerance into this category. What is Australia's national goal? I don't think many people in Australia would be able to answer that. And if you have no goal, people tend to just fight amongst themselves as they criticise the actions of others.

Welcome to democracy baby. I for one would not want to live in a society that had 'one goal'.

I am disappointed you had to throw left-wingers into that list though. There are plenty who are beyond reason, but there are just as many who are from the Right. Religious right groups are one who especially tend to focus on the actions of others. Political orientation has nothing to do with it. Generally, these issues will rise from a flaw in character rather than ideology.

 

[ROB48]

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21198786-5001021,00.html

THE parents of four Granville Boys High students featured in an internet race hate video have pulled their sons out of the school rather than allow them to be disciplined, with two of the boys indicating they want to attend an Islamic college instead.
A fifth pupil involved in the sickening YouTube hate video glorifying gang rapist Bilal Skaf has opted to wear his punishment and has been given a 20-day suspension pending possible expulsion.
The Saturday Daily Telegraph can reveal the Year 11 students were withdrawn from the school by their parents rather than face disciplinary action and at least two intend to enrol in an Islamic college.
The video – called "Lebo thugs" – featured images of revenge attacks following the Cronulla riots and a range of banned handguns. Another image depicted gang rapist Skaf with a rifle across his lap and a map of Australia in the Lebanese flag colours with the words "Under new management" scrawled above it.
The gang behind the video called themselves the Soldiers of Granville Boys. It was made late last year by five Year 10 students as well as a number of former students at the school.
A spokesman for the Education Department told The Saturday Daily Telegraph yesterday the school principal, Angela Lyris, had given the students the option of staying and facing disciplinary action or finding another school.
"Following interviews with five students and their parents, four of those students were withdrawn by their parents from the school and the fifth student given a long suspension, pending possible expulsion," the spokesman said.
While the students admitted to contributing to the offensive video, they claimed it had been taken out of context and that they never meant to incite racial hatred. They also claimed it was never intended to be loaded on to the YouTube website.

 

[Mr Q]

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21198786-5001021,00.htmlTHE parents of four Granville Boys High students featured in an internet race hate video have pulled their sons out of the school rather than allow them to be disciplined, with two of the boys indicating they want to attend an Islamic college instead.

Go talk to any high school principal or deputy principal, and they'll tell you that this sort of reaction from parents to misbehaving children is nothing new, nor is it specific to Muslims. "My kid isn't bad," is a normal reaction from parents in denial of the fact they have done a poor job of bringing up their children, and it happens in every group in the community.

 

[ROB48]

Go talk to any high school principal or deputy principal, and they'll tell you that this sort of reaction from parents to misbehaving children is nothing new, nor is it specific to Muslims. "My kid isn't bad," is a normal reaction from parents in denial of the fact they have done a poor job of bringing up their children, and it happens in every group in the community.

Ok, if that's what you want to believe.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Ok, if that's what you want to believe.

Are you saying that bad parents are the sole domain of the muslim/lebanese communities?

 

[ROB48]

Are you saying that bad parents are the sole domain of the muslim/lebanese communities?

Not at all but it is a high proportion, 4 out of 5 that are not prepared to accept that their children were wrong, don't you think?

Do you have any kids DA?

 

[Mr Q]

Not at all but it is a high proportion, 4 out of 5 that are not prepared to accept that their children were wrong, don't you think?

Do you have even the slightest hint of a source to back up that sort of allegation?