Crows plan Walker talks!

[Southerntakeover]

Couldn't it just be that he doesn't want to get into them now? Particularly knowing full well that the longer he waits, the bigger the offer is likely to be?

I dont think thats true, and its particularly hard to tell without looking at the contract now.

I also dont buy that his value will increase dramatically. He can command a large figure based on the fact that people think hes likely to be a champion.

 

[cmndstab]

See, this is exactly the type of argument that makes no sense what so ever.

What additional leverage exists at the end of the year as to now? Practically none. We already know he could sign with GWS. Refusing to look at any offer what so over is not characteristic of a negotiation strategy, its the opposite... its a refusal to negotiate.

This is not exactly my field of speciality or anything, but wouldn't delaying negotiations until later in the year, when there is a less time for us to weasel our way into a better deal, put Walker in a stronger position than he is in now?

Yes, we know he could sign with GWS now. We also know that we have months to try to lure him to sign with us. If he comes to us two weeks before the trade period and decides to play hardball, he's surely in a stronger position than he would be if he did it now?

And if he has a strong year beyond the club's expectations (whatever they are...), that also gives him additional leverage.


And then, in the end, how could it backfire on him? The only way it could go sour for him is if he plays like shit. It's pretty much guaranteed that if he wanted to go to GWS, they'd take him, even after a disappointing 2011. He's got nothing to lose.

Personally, I think it's even simpler than that. I reckon he's just a kid who wants to play footy and all that contract stuff can take care of itself later on. He wouldn't feel like he's in any danger of not getting a contract extension and a pretty hefty raise, however things turn out. His management meanwhile would be more than happy to go along with that because every tick of the clock brings them closer to being able to force Adelaide's hand.


Edit: I also don't think the throwaway line "he refuses to look at the contract" is meant to be taken literally. I'm pretty sure he'd have a fair idea what the dollar value on the table is. "Refusing to look at it" to me sounds more like, he doesn't want to enter any negotiations yet. At the very least, you'd think his management would be inquiring about the price on the bottom line.

 

[SydCrow]

I wonder also if the GWS is in a position to give him a number now or whether they are lining up their other options

 

[Crow-mo]

do we think bock would have gotten the deal he did, if he had actually waited until the end of 2010?

best thing he did was sign and committ GC before they had a chance to observe misgivings in action.

i don't agree that more time to assess performance necessarily leads to a higher offer.

 

[Southerntakeover]

This is not exactly my field of speciality or anything, but wouldn't delaying negotiations until later in the year, when there is a less time for us to weasel our way into a better deal, put Walker in a stronger position than he is in now?

I cant see why. If we were to lock him up now it would be with a strong offer. Its not like we're thinking we can lock him up before GWS get a shot with a low ball offer. His position wont improve this year. It is what it is.

Yes, we know he could sign with GWS now. We also know that we have months to try to lure him to sign with us. If he comes to us two weeks before the trade period and decides to play hardball, he's surely in a stronger position than he would be if he did it now?

Not really.

His position is already ridiculously strong.

And if he has a strong year beyond the club's expectations (whatever they are...), that also gives him additional leverage.

I dont really see driving the contract up as an issue.

You can either be paid on performance or potential, and as I see it his potential is likely to be the biggest value in this equation.

And then, in the end, how could it backfire on him? The only way it could go sour for him is if he plays like shit. It's pretty much guaranteed that if he wanted to go to GWS, they'd take him, even after a disappointing 2011. He's got nothing to lose.

He could suffer a career ending injury this year.

In the likely category hed be destroying alot of good will at a club he wants to stay at. Of course thats assuming he wants to stay. If he doesnt that wouldnt be a concern at all.

Personally, I think it's even simpler than that. I reckon he's just a kid who wants to play footy and all that contract stuff can take care of itself later on. He wouldn't feel like he's in any danger of not getting a contract extension and a pretty hefty raise, however things turn out. His management meanwhile would be more than happy to go along with that because every tick of the clock brings them closer to being able to force Adelaide's hand.

This is illogical. If hes a kid who just wants to play with no contract negotiation pressures hanging over his head the simplest course of action would be to sign one now, considering he could already command a strong figure.

Of course theres always the possibility he already has signed a contract for playing football next season.

Edit: I also don't think the throwaway line "he refuses to look at the contract" is meant to be taken literally. I'm pretty sure he'd have a fair idea what the dollar value on the table is. "Refusing to look at it" to me sounds more like, he doesn't want to enter any negotiations yet. At the very least, you'd think his management would be inquiring about the price on the bottom line.

What makes it a throwaway line?

It was a clear and concise statement made by a senior party. Theres nothing to suggest it wasnt meant as said. Indeed, its my firm belief that Trigg is putting this out there quite deliberately.

 

[Southerntakeover]

do we think bock would have gotten the deal he did, if he had actually waited until the end of 2010?

best thing he did was sign and committ GC before they had a chance to observe misgivings in action.

i don't agree that more time to assess performance necessarily leads to a higher offer.

It doesnt, especially not when the player is percieved to be a very high potential player.

Indeed in many cases more evidence can drive a players value down.

Theres a reason the NFL team owners are so desperate to cap rookie payments after a spate of high draft pick busts with ridiculous contracts.

 

[cmndstab]

I'm always wary at engaging in long "bit by bit quote" replies But let's give this a go anyway.

I cant see why. If we were to lock him up now it would be with a strong offer. Its not like we're thinking we can lock him up before GWS get a shot with a low ball offer. His position wont improve this year. It is what it is.

We might have to agree to disagree on this one. I really can't see how his position is going to remain static over a year.

Not really.

His position is already ridiculously strong.

This doesn't mean it can't get stronger. Hypothetically, he could come out and kick 150 goals, it's going to make his position stronger. More realistically, he could come out and kick, say, 60 goals, which I suspect would be above club expectations, and his position would become stronger.

I dont really see driving the contract up as an issue.

You can either be paid on performance or potential, and as I see it his potential is likely to be the biggest value in this equation.

Biggest value, yes. Not the only value, however. Potential commands big money, but if you can add performance to that bouquet you're going to drive the money up even further.

He could suffer a career ending injury this year.

Walker is 20 years old, you don't really think this is something he's thinking about, right? I'm making an assumption in my line of reasoning that Walker believes he can at least match the expectations placed on him for season 2011. Given everything we hear about Walker's attitude, I think it's a fair assumption.

In the likely category hed be destroying alot of good will at a club he wants to stay at. Of course thats assuming he wants to stay. If he doesnt that wouldnt be a concern at all.

Destroying goodwill by going through contract negotiations at the end of the season? I don't really see that as being an issue. Did Chris Knights destroy his goodwill at the club by delaying his negotiations? Plenty of players prefer to wait until the season is over before dealing with negotiations.

This is illogical. If hes a kid who just wants to play with no contract negotiation pressures hanging over his head the simplest course of action would be to sign one now, considering he could already command a strong figure.

Come on mate, things aren't black and white. He could be a kid who just wants to play, but he's not an idiot who has to sign his life away just to get rid of other distractions. He can put his contract negotiations until later and focus on his season now - and be relatively secure in the knowledge that neither his value nor his odds of being offered a contract for season 2012 and beyond are likely to go down.

Of course theres always the possibility he already has signed a contract for playing football next season.

I think WALL-e is advocating red cards for even implying this

What makes it a throwaway line?

It was a clear and concise statement made by a senior party. Theres nothing to suggest it wasnt meant as said. Indeed, its my firm belief that Trigg is putting this out there quite deliberately.

"Throwaway line" was probably the wrong choice of words. It's not a throwaway line as much as it's a pithy comment that is not necessarily a literal representation of reality. I have no trouble accepting that Walker is not interested in negotiating his contract now, a conclusion I draw from Trigg's comments. This concept that he's not even looking at dollar value the club is offering him (and therefore cannot judge how much extra he thinks he can drag out of playing hardball), however, is a questionable interpolation at best.

 

[cmndstab]

It doesnt, especially not when the player is percieved to be a very high potential player.

Indeed in many cases more evidence can drive a players value down.

Theres a reason the NFL team owners are so desperate to cap rookie payments after a spate of high draft pick busts with ridiculous contracts.

There's no way Walker would be approaching this season with the attitude "better lock away the contract before my substandard form sinks my contract", though. Bock was a little different - coming off an injury-ridden preseason in the latter half of his career. I can't imagine Walker is expecting anything other than to outperform the club's expectations this year.

 

[Allefgib]

So stabby - your saying that you reckon Walker feels like the club doesn't believe he is as good as he personally things he is. That he feels the club underestimate him? So he's going to come out and shove it up them with a season that exceeds their expectations and then ask them to pay up. And then walk anyway?

Thats what I hear you saying Tex is thinking when you keep saying what you do.....

 

[Southerntakeover]

I'm always wary at engaging in long "bit by bit quote" replies But let's give this a go anyway.

Then dont respond to short posts with a freaking essay.

This doesn't mean it can't get stronger. Hypothetically, he could come out and kick 150 goals, it's going to make his position stronger. More realistically, he could come out and kick, say, 60 goals, which I suspect would be above club expectations, and his position would become stronger.

It really depends on where you percieve his potential as being rated.

If he is seen as a future coleman medallist, then no. Its highly unlikely that his performance this year will drive his value up.

Biggest value, yes. Not the only value, however. Potential commands big money, but if you can add performance to that bouquet you're going to drive the money up even further.

Not really. If you're already being offered peak money, and lets not get stupid there is a finite peak amount of money a player can command, then performance cant drive it up at all.

Walker is 20 years old, you don't really think this is something he's thinking about, right? I'm making an assumption in my line of reasoning that Walker believes he can at least match the expectations placed on him for season 2011. Given everything we hear about Walker's attitude, I think it's a fair assumption.

Its a bigger consideration early in the career than late. I.e. he hasnt already made big money. Security is a key factor in practically any sport in the world where free agency exists.

Destroying goodwill by going through contract negotiations at the end of the season? I don't really see that as being an issue. Did Chris Knights destroy his goodwill at the club by delaying his negotiations? Plenty of players prefer to wait until the season is over before dealing with negotiations.

Its certainly creating a tension that need not exist- if you plan on staying.

Come on mate, things aren't black and white. He could be a kid who just wants to play, but he's not an idiot who has to sign his life away just to get rid of other distractions. He can put his contract negotiations until later and focus on his season now - and be relatively secure in the knowledge that neither his value nor his odds of being offered a contract for season 2012 and beyond are likely to go down.

You're claiming he just wants to play football without this shit hanging over his head. The ONLY way that can happen is if he were to sign a contract early. Refusing to discuss contracts with us now doesnt allow him to focus purely on football at all, unless you missed the Ablett circus last year.

It is black and white. Theres only one legitimate reason why you would refuse to even look at a contract which even remotely makes sense. (hint- its not because he has a secret phobia of long term financial security).

I think WALL-e is advocating red cards for even implying this

Can he card Trigg?

"Throwaway line" was probably the wrong choice of words. It's not a throwaway line as much as it's a pithy comment that is not necessarily a literal representation of reality. I have no trouble accepting that Walker is not interested in negotiating his contract now, a conclusion I draw from Trigg's comments. This concept that he's not even looking at dollar value the club is offering him (and therefore cannot judge how much extra he thinks he can drag out of playing hardball), however, is a questionable interpolation at best.

Its not questionable at all. Its the actual meaning of what was said.

And it makes perfect sense.

What is a questionable interpolation is that walker is playing hardball at all. What is there to suggest that he intends to negotiate with us?

 

[Southerntakeover]

There's no way Walker would be approaching this season with the attitude "better lock away the contract before my substandard form sinks my contract", though. Bock was a little different - coming off an injury-ridden preseason in the latter half of his career. I can't imagine Walker is expecting anything other than to outperform the club's expectations this year.

You're missing the point...

He doesnt need to drive his value up, no matter what season he thinks he'll have.

 

[cmndstab]

So stabby - your saying that you reckon Walker feels like the club doesn't believe he is as good as he personally things he is. That he feels the club underestimate him? So he's going to come out and shove it up them with a season that exceeds their expectations and then ask them to pay up. And then walk anyway?

Thats what I hear you saying Tex is thinking when you keep saying what you do.....

Somehow I don't think "you don't rate me quite as highly as I do" is going to be Walker's motivation for leaving. I do reckon he wants to show everyone just how good he really is. I don't reckon he's going to kick up a fit and say "you didn't rate me highly enough so **** you, I'm leaving". Unless we stiff him on the cash, I reckon he'll stay.

Then dont respond to short posts with a freaking essay.

I can't heeeeelp iiit

It really depends on where you percieve his potential as being rated.

If he is seen as a future coleman medallist, then no. Its highly unlikely that his performance this year will drive his value up.

I don't know if the club sees him as a guaranteed future coleman medallist. Top ten in the AFL forward, certainly.

Not really. If you're already being offered peak money, and lets not get stupid there is a finite peak amount of money a player can command, then performance cant drive it up at all.

Its a bigger consideration early in the career than late. I.e. he hasnt already made big money. Security is a key factor in practically any sport in the world where free agency exists.

Let's be realistic here. The Crows are not going to come out and give him Ablett-esque money. Nor should they. He's not the second coming of Christ, he's a very talented footballer who has yet to demonstrate that he will take the necessary step to convert that talent into elite performances. There is massive room for him to push his dollar price upwards, and his performances this year will have a say in that.

I agree with the security argument in general - but this is an exceptional case. Anything short of a total career-ending injury (and how common are those at 20 years of age?) will not prevent GWS from coming to the table with him. Security is the least of his concerns right now.

Its certainly creating a tension that need not exist- if you plan on staying.

Well, it's certainly created tension on Bigfooty I'm pretty sure players delaying the signing of their contracts would be business as usual at the club.

You're claiming he just wants to play football without this shit hanging over his head. The ONLY way that can happen is if he were to sign a contract early. Refusing to discuss contracts with us now doesnt allow him to focus purely on football at all, unless you missed the Ablett circus last year.

It is black and white. Theres only one legitimate reason why you would refuse to even look at a contract which even remotely makes sense. (hint- its not because he has a secret phobia of long term financial security).

The Ablett scenario was poorly handled by all individuals. It's not as though there was such a circus around Bock (until it turned out he had actually signed...) or most other players, for that matter. When you're talking about the best player in the competition, it's a different situation altogether.

Why did Knights refuse to deal with contract negotations until the end of the season? Why did Tippett refuse to deal with contract negotiations until the end of play in 2009? I think you're being a touch narrow-minded here in proposing there is only one reason to postpone contract negotiations.

Can he card Trigg?

Let's just say Trigg had better watch out next time he's in Melbourne!

Its not questionable at all. Its the actual meaning of what was said.

And it makes perfect sense.

What is a questionable interpolation is that walker is playing hardball at all. What is there to suggest that he intends to negotiate with us?

The lack of evidence for one conclusion does not mean that the most superficial of evidence for the alternative should be viewed as damning. The fact is, Walker is at the club. He has his friends here at the club. He's a lifelong Crows supporter. He's about to embark on a campaign with the club. I personally have heard that he loves being at the club. If there wasn't a brand new club cashed up to the nines coming along with pumped-up contracts rolling out of their pockets, nobody would assume that Walker delaying his contract negotiation is indicative of anything untoward.

Walker shouldn't have to come out and announce to the public "I intend to deal with contract negotiations later in the year" for us to assume it.

I understand that where there's smoke there's often fire, but to use another clumsy analogy, I think you're jumping at shadows. To indicate that this comment from Trigg can only reasonably be interpreted as Walker's disinterest in remaining a Crow is a massive leap in logic.

 

[moogerfooger]

do we think bock would have gotten the deal he did, if he had actually waited until the end of 2010?

best thing he did was sign and committ GC before they had a chance to observe misgivings in action.

i don't agree that more time to assess performance necessarily leads to a higher offer.

yes but Bock had already reached his peak as a player - he had more to lose by waiting. Walker's value is still very much based on potential - he has more to gain by waiting.

 

[Gets!]

I ****ing hate all this bullshit.

This is the most talented bloke we have had on our list since Modra, we have had him since he was 15, and he is probably going to piss off to GWS.

Every mark, kick and goal Walker gets this year, even though I will be cheering, in the back of my mind I won't be able to be content. ****.

 

[relapse]

I ****ing hate all this bullshit.

This is the most talented bloke we have had on our list since Modra, we have had him since he was 15, and he is probably going to piss off to GWS.

Every mark, kick and goal Walker gets this year, even though I will be cheering, in the back of my mind I won't be able to be content. ****.

I feel the same and it is going to suck this year watching him play when his future with us is in doubt. Unfortunately you reap what you sow and there have been some valid questions about how Craig has coached him thus far and if they are true it may in the end push him to look to another club.

At 20 years of age it wont just be the money that he leaves for, his decision IMO will also be reflective of how he feels he has been treated by the club thus far.

Interesting times ahead, but I will be totally gutted if we lose Tex.

 

[Poached_Egg]

How would you feel if you lost Tex and Craig is not coach in 2012?

 

[jo172]

How would you feel if you lost Tex and Craig is not coach in 2012?

Don't really see how the two are related?

 

[ruscy002]

I'm sure somebody has said this already, but it really ****ing shits me that these player managers come out and say things like "they don't want any distractions so they're putting off contract talks until the end of the season". WTF? As soon as this comment is made it becomes a ****ing media circus for months on end, and would have to be the most disrupting thing that a player could deal with.

Having said that, the sky is not falling. There were heaps of players who put off their contract talks until the end of the season last year who all ended up staying with their respective clubs. Some of them were using GC17 as leverage, some may have genuinely wanted to go but missed out on the coin, and the exact same thing will happen this year.

There are a few misconceptions around here that people need to clear from their minds...firstly, being a long time Crows fan will not keep him here on its own - did it help Geelong with Ablett? Williams being at GWS will not be a deterrent for Walker - we all end up getting along with people that we don't like at work. Location will be a minor factor - even the shittiest place in the world wouldn't be so bad when you lay your head down to sleep each night on a pillow filled with cash.

Apart from the money on offer, I think the big thing for Walker will be how well he works with Tippett this year. If everything clicks and they both have awesome seasons, then that will go a long way towards getting his signature. However, if they don't click and they end up basically stifling each other then I can see Walker wanting to leave to be in a team that's built around him as the focal point. Let's face it, Walker and Tippett are both full forwards - very different types of full forwards I might add, but this could be a problem. Tippett was here first, and at the moment he's a better player (although I do think Tex will be better in the long run).

Frankly I hope we snuck in a team of NASA engineers over the summer to look at our forward structure and how to best utilise these guys, our choice of forward line coach wasn't exactly an inspiring one...

 

[KUNG FU]

I still think Walker is a CHF in the classic 90s mould. He's got a massive leg and is more than handy up and around the ball.

 

[WALL-e]

I still think Walker is a CHF in the classic 90s mould. He's got a massive leg and is more than handy up and around the ball.

His increased tank and his footy brain and smart shoe make him damaging up the ground.

Anyone remember the pass to Tippett against the Saints (or Geelong) where we had only Tip forward of half way, Tex took an mark right in the center, stopped, and delivered a 60 meter pass between 3 Saints.

He is extremely damaging inside the 50, so it makes it hard to play him away from there, but I think he'll split a lot more time this year.

 

[WALL-e]

Of course theres always the possibility he already has signed a contract for playing football next season.

I think WALL-e is advocating red cards for even implying this

This much is true, first warning STO.

Can he card Trigg?

Can and will.

Let's just say Trigg had better watch out next time he's in Melbourne!

Triggy will give me a wide birth next time he roles up in my hood. Mod's represent!

 

[Schulzycrow]

Agree with Wall-e and Kungfu. Walker is not FF. He is good on a lead and hopefully he has improved his contested marking. He has one of the best tanks in the club, he is now built like an outhouse, can kick a 60 metre bomb, deliver passes or kick goals on either side of his body. He has the potential to be the gun CHF of the comp. Maybe not the speed of Buddy, but more dangerous with his leg.
Walker has a breakout season, the club with pony up with the coin and the environment that has been built with his mates, more chances of a flag and the fact he loves the club will keep Tex.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Id like to see Walker play the third tall roll, with a licence to go where he likes. A bit like Hird used to play. He reads the play so well.

 

[ruscy002]

No no no no no no no...

Fifty goals in his debut SANFL season...full forward.

Five goals in a half against Hawthorn, his best bag for the Crows...full forward.

He could turn out to be a brilliant CHF because he has all the attributes to do so, but he is a natural full forward, and we'd see his best footy there if given a consistent opportunity.

 

[ruscy002]

His increased tank and his footy brain and smart shoe make him damaging up the ground.

Anyone remember the pass to Tippett against the Saints (or Geelong) where we had only Tip forward of half way, Tex took an mark right in the center, stopped, and delivered a 60 meter pass between 3 Saints.

He is extremely damaging inside the 50, so it makes it hard to play him away from there, but I think he'll split a lot more time this year.

I remember the kick but not the opposition, the man is an artist.

I hope you're right about him splitting his time...while I like him hitting forwards on the chest over 60m, I prefer him to send it sailing through post-high from just outside the 50