Crows supporters ..now abandoning THAT conglomerate ,for another AFL club

Dan26

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#51
Macca19,

Firstly i don't have to live in Adelaide to know what went on. I am fully aware of what went on.

Secondly, SANFL fans did NOT abandon their teams. All they did was start supporting the higher standard competiton. When this happens it has a bad affect on the second-tier competiton, because that comp goes from being number one to number 2. The exact same thing happened to the WAFL. Ther fans still barrack for their clubs, but they are more inclined to go to watch the higher standard comp.

Eg, I am an Essendon supporter, but I also support Werribee. Do I got o many Werribee games? No! Why? Becasue I spend most of my time going to Essendon games in the better competiton, that's why. Do you ever use logic in your reasoning? This is what happened when the Crows joined the AFL. If Ports SANFL crowds stayed similar, that is probably becasue they won premeirships in 1992,94,95,96,and one other year which escapes me. Did this occue to you, as a reason why Ports crowds stayed up? Otherwise they would have dipped like all the other SANFL teams.

Oh and I know the Crows average home crowd is about 39,000. But they can't get all their annual reserved seat holders, or FP members to attend every week. I think there are only about 5,000 tickets available to be snapped up by the public for each Crows home match.

They have a 10 year wiating list, so if the stadium held 65,000, I'm sure they would average between 55,000-60,000. That's what I "mean" when I say they sell out every match. I'm probably more awate of their attendances than you are. I'm very knowledgable when it come to crowds. The Crows biggest crowd in 48,000 versus Collingwood in 1993. I know that off the top of my head. They got 47,000 for the first local derby. Over the last 2 seaosns, they have routinely got between 35,000-40,000 despite a 10 year waiting list for memberships.

So please......don't put words into my mouth. I hate it when people do that.
 

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Thread starter #52
Originally posted by Dan24:
Macca19,

Firstly i don't have to live in Adelaide to know what went on. I am fully aware of what went on.

Secondly, SANFL fans did NOT abandon their teams. All they did was start supporting the higher standard competiton. When this happens it has a bad affect on the second-tier competiton, because that comp goes from being number one to number 2.


Dan24,

The SANFL was the principal competition in SA
the VFL was the principal competition in Victoria.

The VFL evolved into the AFL so it no longer was a Victorian competition, however the majority of administrators were Victorian and played in The VFL, they didnt want their own records to be cast adside in favour of new national records ( who are the meglomaniacs now ? ) so they conveniently continued to maintain a suburban record Equaled a National record. But that is an aside...

The point is SANFL supporters ABANDONED their SANFL teams in favour of a new national side in the new National comp the AFL (yeah, yeah, which use to be a local victorian comp with more money and sponsors, that moved on from its local Victorian roots then became a new National comp called the AFL, rather than a melbourne based VFL which it had been previously.)

The supporters of the SANFL clubs had the opportunity to push for their clubs inclusions to the AFL, but they abandoned their clubs' causes.....

They then immideately began supporting the cobbled togethor State side the Adelaide Crows, they didnt return to their own clubs
or walk through the turnstyles.

There wasnt a second tier comp in SA equivalent to the VFA...there was SAFA, but it was no better than Amateuer and a transient comp.

The SANFL was the equivalent to the VFL in SA . It had never played a subservient tole to another comp in SA like the VFA did to the VFL.

The Crows were shiny bright, they were the baubles and pins, the hatchets and blankets that bought the Footy going public of SA.
It was as simple as taking candy from a baby to make Football suporters abandon their clubs in favour of the Crows....

That is the Supporter base the Crows have.

Im not saying it is a bad thing.........

All Im saying is it is what it is.....


PA1870
 

Macca19

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Moderator #53
Originally posted by Dan24:
Macca19,

Firstly i don't have to live in Adelaide to know what went on. I am fully aware of what went on.

Secondly, SANFL fans did NOT abandon their teams. All they did was start supporting the higher standard competiton. When this happens it has a bad affect on the second-tier competiton, because that comp goes from being number one to number 2. The exact same thing happened to the WAFL. Ther fans still barrack for their clubs, but they are more inclined to go to watch the higher standard comp.

Eg, I am an Essendon supporter, but I also support Werribee. Do I got o many Werribee games? No! Why? Becasue I spend most of my time going to Essendon games in the better competiton, that's why. Do you ever use logic in your reasoning? This is what happened when the Crows joined the AFL. If Ports SANFL crowds stayed similar, that is probably becasue they won premeirships in 1992,94,95,96,and one other year which escapes me. Did this occue to you, as a reason why Ports crowds stayed up? Otherwise they would have dipped like all the other SANFL teams.

Oh and I know the Crows average home crowd is about 39,000. But they can't get all their annual reserved seat holders, or FP members to attend every week. I think there are only about 5,000 tickets available to be snapped up by the public for each Crows home match.

They have a 10 year wiating list, so if the stadium held 65,000, I'm sure they would average between 55,000-60,000. That's what I "mean" when I say they sell out every match. I'm probably more awate of their attendances than you are. I'm very knowledgable when it come to crowds. The Crows biggest crowd in 48,000 versus Collingwood in 1993. I know that off the top of my head. They got 47,000 for the first local derby. Over the last 2 seaosns, they have routinely got between 35,000-40,000 despite a 10 year waiting list for memberships.

So please......don't put words into my mouth. I hate it when people do that.
Crows fans DID abandon their SA clubs..they stopped going to them didnt they!!! There has never been a crows home game on at the same time as an SANFL game. IM sure most Essendon games arent on at the sametime as Werribee games. Logic in reasoning, i have plenty of it. SANFL games here arent played at the same time as the home SA AFL team of the week. Say if Port was playing Sunday arvo, SANFL games are on saturday arvo, you get what i mean. Altho SANFL games are usually on Saturday arvo, hence if the crows or power are playing in melbourne on saturday arvo, it clashes with the sanfl. I got o all Power games, and i try to get to all of the magpies games as well. You confused yourself with what you said. You said WAFL fans didnt abandon their WA clubs, but they went to watch the higher competition instead...thats abandoning you idiot!!!

Crows highest attendance was round 22 v Collingwood and got 48,500...was packed that game, i was lucky to get a seat.

basically your an essendon supporter..that says it all i think
 
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Thread starter #54
Highest Crowd at Football park involved :

Port Adelaide Football club and Sturt Football Club


66,897......estimated 20,000 turned away at gates.

The above is the official figure by the SANFL

Advertiser and other outside sources report the true figure was closer to
73,000

football park was standing room only in 1976.

Patrons were herded inside the oval right up to the boundary line.

PA1870
 

Crow54

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#55
Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870:

The Crows were shiny bright, they were the baubles and pins, the hatchets and blankets that bought the Footy going public of SA.
It was as simple as taking candy from a baby to make Football suporters abandon their clubs in favour of the Crows....

That is the Supporter base the Crows have.

Im not saying it is a bad thing.........

All Im saying is it is what it is.....


PA1870[/B]
I disagree with you about the supporters "abandoning" their SANFL clubs. I think they still supported them, but for a while they didn't actually go to the games. Naturally most footy supporters would jump on the AFL bandwagon, it generated so much excitement and fun, people weren't able to resist it. (One would have to ask if the same thing would have happened if Port was the first team in the AFL, rather than this "conglomerate" team - maybe not. However I DO think people would have still gone over to the AFL if a Norwood, or for that matter any other non-Port team had joined, instead of the Crows). "Abandoning" is a strong term.

Also the Crows created a new market of footy followers, of which I am one. I hadn't taken much interest in footy for years, but now consider myself a passionate footy follower. I also follow the local league now, but I can't honestly say that I would have been so keen if Port had been the first AFL team, if you follow what I mean.

You say you don't think it's a bad thing that the supporters "abandoned" their SANFL teams, but you seem to be going on a fair bit about it, in a critical sort of way, inferring that because of this, Crows supporters are inferior to Port supporters.
 

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Moderator #56
Originally posted by Crow54:

Macca19, after whizzing through your numerous posts and sorting wheat from chaff, I would like to pick up on one point: the terms "sell-out" and "maximum attendance" are two different things. At most Crow games the sign "sell-out" appears on the gates. However, that doesn't mean "maximum attendance". For whatever reason, people who have bought a ticket don't show up. BUT "sell-out" means people can't get in, even if there are seats sitting vacant. The reason there aren't "live" TV broadcasts of Crows games (apart from Showdowns) is that the Club is pretty much against them, and often seats sell out later in the week, meaning arrangements can't be made at that stage, to show the game live.
ok, my mistake...apologies all round
 
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Thread starter #57
Originally posted by Crow54:
I disagree with you about the supporters "abandoning" their SANFL clubs. I think they still supported them, but for a while they didn't actually go to the games. Naturally most footy supporters would jump on the AFL bandwagon, it generated so much excitement and fun, people weren't able to resist it. (One would have to ask if the same thing would have happened if Port was the first team in the AFL, rather than this "conglomerate" team - maybe not. However I DO think people would have still gone over to the AFL if a Norwood, or for that matter any other non-Port team had joined, instead of the Crows). "Abandoning" is a strong term.

Also the Crows created a new market of footy followers, of which I am one. I hadn't taken much interest in footy for years, but now consider myself a passionate footy follower. I also follow the local league now, but I can't honestly say that I would have been so keen if Port had been the first AFL team, if you follow what I mean.

You say you don't think it's a bad thing that the supporters "abandoned" their SANFL teams, but you seem to be going on a fair bit about it, in a critical sort of way, inferring that because of this, Crows supporters are inferior to Port supporters.


Crows OK,

Your type of supporter is not the type referred to. You were drawn to the excitement, pizzaz, bright lights and razz ma tazz of a well marketed ,slickly engineered business ...The Crows, they caught you and your fellow non real footy following types...Good.

You are right Norwood would have probably got your interest if they ahd been the first team.

I am not, nor have I ever Insinuated that Port supporters were better than Crows supporters because we didnt abandon our club for a new team.


Abandon is an emotive word...Yes.....I dont pussyfoot on politically correct terminology or terminology designed to be " soft " in its accusation.


League football clubs in SA were abandoned wholesale in SA at the mention of something that may be , Bigger, Brighter, louder, glitzier, than they supported before..especially if everyone could band togethor against Port...


The one lone bastion of SANFL football history, the one club that had the temerity , support and Balls to say to the Vics..." Hey look at us, we represent 125 years of SANFL football as a club, we Can match it against your VFL clubs !"

The VFL then AFL saw and accepted this...We didnt have to band togethor like frightened Cro magnons afraid of the noises in the Jungle to push S.A.'s history case

We have gone in as the only Club outside of Victoria in the VFL / AFL's history from another league.

Thats all.

PA1870
 

ptw

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#58
PA1870

you seem unable to come to grips with the notion that someone could actually passtionately support two different clubs in two different competitions at the same time.

Why is this difficult to accept ?

ptw
 

Dan26

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#59
Originally posted by ptw:
PA1870

you seem unable to come to grips with the notion that someone could actually passtionately support two different clubs in two different competitions at the same time.

Why is this difficult to accept ?

ptw
Good post ptw.

People didn't abandon their teams, They were just more inclined to go to the higher standard comp. All of a sudden, the SANFL was NOT the highest standard of footy in the state.....the AFL was. So, naturally, peoples interest (including Port supporters) swayed to the AFL.

This is common in all countries in all sports. The higher standard competition, gets the higher crowds. It doesn't matter whether it is soccer, basketball, netball, underwater hockey, or pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey.
 

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#60
Originally posted by Crows.ok:
Port don't have anywhere near 40% of the SA market. More like 25% to 33%. The Crows support outnumbers the Port support by three to one or more.

Crows have sold out Footy Park to maximum capacity from day 1. Next year, Footy Park capacity will increase by 7000. Of that increase, 2000 must be made available to general admission, leaving 5000 extra seats available for memberships & season tickets.

Crows have already sold out that extra 5000 to their waiting list (starting with the 2002 season). An increase of 5000 on 40000 is about a 12% increase. Clearly this is limited by the available capacity and not the level of Crows support.

If you like facts to be introduced, why not introduce them? But stick to facts, not some vague fantasy about a decline in Crows support, when it has just gone UP by 12%, and constrained at that.
The 40% figure is completely accurate. If you have a calculator, do the numbers yourself. Compare the Crows attendances last year with Port's and see if you come up with 75%.
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#61
Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870:

Crows OK,

Your type of supporter is not the type referred to. You were drawn to the excitement, pizzaz, bright lights and razz ma tazz of a well marketed ,slickly engineered business ...The Crows, they caught you and your fellow non real footy following types...Good.
Thats all.

PA1870

Two mistakes here, PA1870. You quoted some text from a message from Crow54, then addressed the response to CrowsOK. Different posters.

Second slip - you don't know me, or Crow54, from Adam. Don't assume. I have never followed Norwood. In fact, when Crows entered into AFL, I actively followed no SANFL team. Bit hard to "abandon" no team, wouldn't you say?

Keep trying though. You might hit upon an actual point if you type long enough. Watch those generalisations though they will kill you every time.
 

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Thread starter #62
Originally posted by Crows.ok:
Two mistakes here, PA1870. You quoted some text from a message from Crow54, then addressed the response to CrowsOK. Different posters.

Second slip - you don't know me, or Crow54, from Adam. Don't assume. I have never followed Norwood. In fact, when Crows entered into AFL, I actively followed no SANFL team. Bit hard to "abandon" no team, wouldn't you say?

Keep trying though. You might hit upon an actual point if you type long enough. Watch those generalisations though they will kill you every time.
Crows Ok,
havent you learnt, No one likes a smart arse. I didnt say I knew you ,Mistake Number one. So havent "You" learnt dont assume ?

Mistake Number two : I never said You followed Norwood, Therefore it is really difficult to abandon them as you so intellingently pointed out. I was responding to Crows 54 , Bright boy and a comment he made about Norwood.

Keep up the intelligent replies they are stimulating for all the readers.

I also put forward that the Crows aroused the interest of Non football supporters such as yourself, that is an assumption !

PA1870
 
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Thread starter #63
Originally posted by ptw:
PA1870

you seem unable to come to grips with the notion that someone could actually passtionately support two different clubs in two different competitions at the same time.

Why is this difficult to accept ?

ptw
ptw,

I dont have a problem with that at all. I support the Port Magpies passionately in the SANFL and Port Adelaide at AFL level. I accept that easily.

I have never had a rational explanation to my original question of why supporters abandoned their SANFL clubs wholesale to follow a team in another league, without exhausting all efforts to save their own clubs from a life of second rank..

I.e. it was easy for 'Example' for a rank and file Glenelg supporter to throw his hands in the air and say "Its all too hard we wont get Glenelg into the AFL so I'll follow the New team formed just this minute...what are they Called , Oh it doesnt matter I'll follow them anyway".

it just seems to me that all other sanfl club members gave up overnight without a fight to follow whatever was new...Thats all

Dan24, The SANFL is not the same anymore, the teams and clubs have the same names, but they are to the SANFL now, what VFA teams of ten years ago were to AFL teams then.

I suppose my perspective is not she''ll be right, go with the flow, whatever is new must be good, lets not question , lets just accept, If you cant influence it dont try, If it is establishment, dont rock the boat.......

Im sorry guys...I love Port and I would never have stopped in assisting their AFL bid
had they not got in, I would never have followed another club, just because they were new...and at this point You guys are probably right.

That is my passionate view, I cant for the life of me understand how every Norwood person didnt work slavishly Day and Night , their so called passionate supporters to try to get Norwood in to the AFLor Glenelg or sturt or Eaglesetc. I saw Norwoods bid first hand, I saw what their supporters were doing, I had liason with some of their support group and it just a real poor effort from such a great club.

I was fortunate enough to see what was happening first hand at these clubs during thier bids and liased with supporters and others at the time..all I can say is they were
insipid in their approaches to the whole AFL deal apart from their much publiscised Media releases, the overall efforts by other clubs members to get them into the AFL were pathetic to say the least.

So having said that, with that sort of passion and motivation for their life long clubs
my view of the whole Crows concept was based on that from day one...My association with the other AFL bids showed me, what Port were up against, THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC NEVER SAW...and it was sad to think that that was the esteem people held for their clubs...To one day be able to say I love this club, so did my dad and his and his, to abandon them for a new team in another comp...Overnight and to watch over 100 years of league football in SA turn to shit and in the eyes of supporters second rank garbage overnight.. Oh , but I still follow my team in a revised SANFL now.

That is the thrust of everything I have had to say on this whole issue.

Ive probably gone about it with too much enthusiasm and passion in my posts in the past and copped plenty of abuse for it as well, but it was and is my Passion.

PA1870
 
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#64
pa1870 You seem to have a lot of information on Port Adelaide and their AFL bid, you know alot about the other SANFL clubs bids too, what involvement did you have ?
crowssuck
 

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#65
My final word on this is in response to a bit of confusion regarding "sell-outs" and "support" and "attendences". A large % of the so-called Crows sellouts happen because a percentage of seating has already been allocated from the year dot to category one members. Crows season tickets sold out in 1991 when just 14,000 seats were taken up. Now a lot of these cat ones are Crow supporters but a lot aren't. They may "support" SANFL clubs, or even Port. For this reason "sell-outs" are not a reliable guide to support, and it is much more realistic to count how many actually show up to watch the Crows. And as had been pointed out, this has steadily declined, over the last few years. However the statement that the Crows have more support than Port has never been at issue; it is obvious that they do. However this only leads to the question of why only 37,000 turn up to so called "sold out" games. It also raises the question of why Crows supporters continue to accept being denied seats when a good % of people holding the seats have no intention of going. This has been looked at over and over by the SANFL and it remains in the "too-hard basket". With the extra seating, we can expect the crows average attendance to be 42,000 in 2001, IF, as has been argued, the limiting factor is seating availablity.
Mud
Mud
 

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#67
Mudholian,

Why don't you tell this story of alleged declining support to the over 3000 people who remain on the Crows membership waiting list? Each of these patient loyal fans is entitled to purchase up to four season tickets if and when they become available, so there are potentially 12000 people ahead in the queue of the last person on this list.

Why on earth would anyone even vaguely suspect that there is any other factor other than the available seating which limits the size of Crows membership?
 
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Thread starter #68
Originally posted by Crowssuck:
pa1870 You seem to have a lot of information on Port Adelaide and their AFL bid, you know alot about the other SANFL clubs bids too, what involvement did you have ?
crowssuck
Suffice to say it would not be in my best interests to reveal what involvement I did have, however, I can say I had a reasonable involvement in a bid and liased with members of other clubs in relation to " the cartel s" bid and Norwood/sturt.

PA1870
 

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#69
Originally posted by Crows.ok:
Mudholian,

Why don't you tell this story of alleged declining support to the over 3000 people who remain on the Crows membership waiting list? Each of these patient loyal fans is entitled to purchase up to four season tickets if and when they become available, so there are potentially 12000 people ahead in the queue of the last person on this list.

Why on earth would anyone even vaguely suspect that there is any other factor other than the available seating which limits the size of Crows membership?
Well, this issue doesn't really interest me, but once again you are confusing a number of terms, or at least using them a bit carelessly. Are you talking membership? Then you'd know that both Crows and Port count Football Park members to their 35,000 and 40+ thousand members. No-one is going to disclose how many members are members of their respective clubs, since 35 and 40 thousand look pretty good for both SA teams. There has never been any limitation on Crows membership. Those waiting for seats could become members tomorrow and get their tickets before the go on sale to the general public. But apparently they don't do this. What you are talking about are season tickets, and I have already explained a good many of the Crows "sold-out" tickets are held by people who are not Crows supporters. I have already said that you would expect the Crows attendances to improve by 7000 this year if in fact the support is as strong as you say. This means you start to average 45,000 a game. So we'll wait and see. As for the declining support, that is based on a very simple fact. Crows attendances have decreased by 2000 a year since 1998. I am not interested in arguing about what is a simple basic fact, but feel free to explain the decline any which way you can.
Mud
 

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#70
Originally posted by Mudholian:
Are you talking membership? Then you'd know that both Crows and Port count Football Park members to their 35,000 and 40+ thousand members. No-one is going to disclose how many members are members of their respective clubs, since 35 and 40 thousand look pretty good for both SA teams. There has never been any limitation on Crows membership. Those waiting for seats could become members tomorrow and get their tickets before the go on sale to the general public. But apparently they don't do this.

Mud
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Only SANFL Category 1 members are counted as both Port and Crows supporters (which seems ridiculous to me). We became Cat. 1 members after waiting for three years on a list, but we really wanted to take out Cat. 2 (Crows only). Unfortunately we couldn't get that, so took up Cat 1 just to get in to see Crows games. I had no idea we were counted as Port members, ugh!
) Luckily we were able to change over to Cat 2 for this year, but a lot of people have complained that they're unable to to do that.

What do you mean that people can join the Crows and get their tickets before they go on sale to the general public? Crows members don't get priority. There are no season tickets left...only tickets for the general public, which by a special ruling can only go on sale to the general public for each game. Unless you mean AFL membership? Please explain.
 

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#71
Originally posted by Crow54:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Only SANFL Category 1 members are counted as both Port and Crows supporters (which seems ridiculous to me). We became Cat. 1 members after waiting for three years on a list, but we really wanted to take out Cat. 2 (Crows only). Unfortunately we couldn't get that, so took up Cat 1 just to get in to see Crows games. I had no idea we were counted as Port members, ugh!
) Luckily we were able to change over to Cat 2 for this year, but a lot of people have complained that they're unable to to do that.

What do you mean that people can join the Crows and get their tickets before they go on sale to the general public? Crows members don't get priority. There are no season tickets left...only tickets for the general public, which by a special ruling can only go on sale to the general public for each game. Unless you mean AFL membership? Please explain.

Dear Pauline
Surely you don't expect me to advertise the advantages of Crows membership?
I suggest you visit the Crows website and read the bit about priority access to tickets for all crows home games except Showdown. DOn't tell me this is news to you?
Mud
 

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#72
A few other facts to help throw a bit of light onto this thread. PA 1870 is completely accurate in what he has said about the 1990 situation. A survey conducted by the Advertiser in July 1990 showed support for an SA team entering the AFL was 43% - not a majority. However this was up from 18% from a similar survey conducted in 1986. 87% of the 1400 respondents supported teh SANFL's stance on AFL entry. 90% of respondents thought that the $4m license fee was too high.
While the SA public were divided on the issue, they were nevertheless voting with their feet - stying home to watch VFL games, with attendances dropping at SANFL games.

While it is easy to have 20/20 hindsite, the SANFL forecast of losses of $1.2 million per year for an AFL team and reductions in total football attendances were way off the mark. Since the license fee was the main sticking point, had the financial projections been more realistic then the entry of an SA team might have been accomplished without the ill feeling that followed from August 1990 onward.

Mud
 

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#73
Originally posted by Mudholian:
Dear Pauline
Surely you don't expect me to advertise the advantages of Crows membership?
I suggest you visit the Crows website and read the bit about priority access to tickets for all crows home games except Showdown. DOn't tell me this is news to you?
Mud
Sorry Mud, I forgot about Bronze members getting to buy tickets the day before they go on sale to the general public. Silly me, I use to actually line up every Tuesday fortnight at 8.30pm at my local BASS outlet to get my tickets as a Bronze member. My memory must be going.

Do you agree that Cat 1 members of SANFL should indicate their preference for Crows/Power, and only be counted with their team in membership numbers? If they don't go for either club, they shouldn't be counted in either teams m/ship numbers. (Or if they go for a non-SA team, they could be added to that team's m/ship??!!!)
 

Jabsy

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Port Adelaide
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#74
Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870:
Highest Crowd at Football park involved :

Port Adelaide Football club and Sturt Football Club


66,897......estimated 20,000 turned away at gates.

Advertiser and other outside sources report the true figure was closer to
73,000

PA1870
From memory this was the year that the fence got smashed down and thousands ran into the ground for free after the "sold-out" signs were put up.

Jabs
 
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#75
HEY PA1870
RE:
We never were Norwood Supporters and ,Darn ,the Crows are playing at times we ..Just cant get to...but Port, well we've ALWAYS begrudgingly liked them...and GUESS WHAT ! their playing times coincide with our ability to get to the AFL footy, Oh well looks like we'll Just have to abandon the Crows and take up Port memberships "

Your point being?? I think that you should be happy that more people wish to support the Power in Adelbrain ... I mean we all know that the Crows should not have been in the AFL before Port - however people that genuinely LIKE footy will want to go and see the Game - and considering that when the Crows started to play in AFL the membership base meant that many people (including me) could not even see an AFL games cept on the telly .... now that Port is here more people can now go and see what a great team they are (if a little inaccurate) ... more supporters for the Power can't be bad no matter how they come can they ?
Anyway go Port for 2001 let's see if they can kick more goals than behinds and show the Crows up -
Cheers
 
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