Crows v Eagles

[CrowHop]

<snip>

I am a bit of a NC fan too, I think he's done a good job. he certainly turned out to be the right man at the time. I think he has flaws, he's been slow to recognise these, and that we make too many excuses for them.

what I am genuinely worried about is that we have all these kids, some of them who look pretty good - but how many are best in class good? we have promise, but how does it stack up relative to everyone else, our competition.

I don't think where we finish matters that much. for example, in 2007 & 2008 we finished in the same spot. in 2007 it was a close loss, on the front foot; with an ounce of luck we could have gone deep. in 2008, we finished in the same spot, but it felt like we were barely at the races, a bad loss, and it seemed we were slipping behind. we no longer threatened the good teams, and we were holding on by our fingernails.

I can be happy with 10th this year, but I don't want anymore of this feeling that we're slipping backwards. I want to see forward progress, that guys like goodwin do NOT finish 2nd in the B&F. we need to be building momentum this year (even if doesn't look like it on the ladder). if we're not, enough of the excuses, enough of the asterisks.

Ok, we disagree a little on the first part of your post which I snipped - thats cool.

Second part of your post - spot on.

Last year I felt like that too, we didnt seriously threaten good teams. Most quality posters on this site would agree. Most of all, I felt like we did ourselves a disservice in the sense, we didn't do enough to try turn our fortunes around. sh1t when things aren't working, try something different. hell try something crazy. don't just do the same and see if it suddenly comes good. This is some of the stubbornness that many accuse Craig of.

Lets get some action happening this year. Tippett, Hentschell and Walker present options up forward. Play them. Build the foundations of a future forward line.

Bock and Rutten can be the rocks down back.

Guys like Otten and Petrenko are two guys who showed plenty of form in the SANFL last year - Play them this year, give them every opportunity.

I assume this is the momentum you speak of, and if so, I agree. Ladder position is irrelevant, play the guys who can contribute to our great club moving forward. In the last 2 years we have finished mid table with our wheels spinning, but going nowehere. Time for change.

 

[Crow-mo]

Ok, we disagree a little on the first part of your post which I snipped - thats cool.

Second part of your post - spot on.

Last year I felt like that too, we didnt seriously threaten good teams. Most quality posters on this site would agree. Most of all, I felt like we did ourselves a disservice in the sense, we didn't do enough to try turn our fortunes around. sh1t when things aren't working, try something different. hell try something crazy. don't just do the same and see if it suddenly comes good. This is some of the stubbornness that many accuse Craig of.

Lets get some action happening this year. Tippett, Hentschell and Walker present options up forward. Play them. Build the foundations of a future forward line.

Bock and Rutten can be the rocks down back.

Guys like Otten and Petrenko are two guys who showed plenty of form in the SANFL last year - Play them this year, give them every opportunity.

I assume this is the momentum you speak of, and if so, I agree. Ladder position is irrelevant, play the guys who can contribute to our great club moving forward. In the last 2 years we have finished mid table with our wheels spinning, but going nowehere. Time for change.

yup, I think we are on the same page.

I would make a slight distinction, in that I don't just want to see these guys play as momentum. I want to see them show something, that they will ultimately deliver on their promise. to some extent with tippet, we put the games in last year, great. Now I want to see, that he's someone we will be able to rely on. enough young players in the bush, lets get them in hand and see how good they are.

if, whilst playing games, they show that they will be able to match it with the best in time, great.

for example, Baseball uses a lot of terminology i like, and think would apply to aussie rules. one of which I like a lot is the concept of no.1's, no.2's etc. particularly in regard of pitchers. you have up to 5 starters in the rotation, and they are usually ranked 1 - 5. the no.1 starter is your ace, the guy who can match up with anyone, and deliver you a win in the playoff's. the guy who will carry you.

I like to think of a midfield as a good place to apply this. a no.1 midfielder is your ace, the guy who turns games. Judd, Ablett, cousins, Buckley etc. in our case we had 2. Roo & McLeod. both no.1 quality. so in ranking them, our no.3 was Goodwin, who is definitely no.2 calibre. and by extension Edwards was a surfeit of riches as our 4th best midfielder.
pretty easy to see how the matchups work for us.

but now? I don't see anyone with genuine no.1 class, and I hope to be proven wrong. if we load up on no.3 calibre midfielders - which is what I do see, then we have the match up issues going forward. a no.3 midfielder, a chris knights say. is a very good player, and we assess him as a good player. its not his problem he is not a game breaking, earth shaking no.1 - its ours. but when we say we have good players, the question how good HAS to be come into play. we could have 7 no.3 or no.4 calibre on ballers - and we'd reel off the names, but we'd get nowhere. sure, our rotations would look good, and in a rotation heavy game we could probably make some currency out of it. but when a game is close, where is the magic, where is the inspiration - its not coming from perfectly good players.

we are at the stage, where we have to look not just at players in isolation, but also where they fit into the greater whole. for example, a player I like a lot - richard douglas: if he only becomes a forward pocket or half back then he is not worth a pinch a shit for us in the overall scheme of things. structurally, we need him to be something else. if he can't be something else, then we might not need him at all. sure he'll be a decent player, but he won't be what we need.

and back to Chris Knights, we can already pencil him in as a very good player, a no.3 who will serve us well. that slot is done. who is going to be our no.2 and no.1? I think it might be vince. but again if its not, its log jam at the back of the rotation.

it works the same way with defenders. scott stevens is a very good 3rd option, as was Bassett. the problem comes when you call them into higher slots. to be FB or CHB. its not Scott Stevens fault he is matched up against, and cannot control Pavlich say - it is the fault of our list structurally that we have to put him in that position. Pavlich demands a no.1 defender and you better have one to put on him. which thankfully, at present, we do.

it is not enough for a young player to develop, it is not enough that they be good. there is an implied heirarchy - whether explicitly outlined or not - that must be filled.

 

[Mismatched]

Yeah, I think the above few posts are a great indication of where we're at and what we need to do to become a power house again.

At the moment, we most certainly lack a couple of blue chip midfielders, or 1st/2nd midfielders as Crowmo refers to them, however, what I do see when I look at our list, is a number of players who I feel could develop into these positions, whether they get there or not, remains to be seen. IMO Douglas, Mackay, Vince and Dangerfield all have this ability to be game changing midfielders. If one or two of these blokes can really step up, then we have plenty of the "lesser" mids such as Thommo, Reilly, VB, Knights, even an Otten, Cook, Petrenko etc. looking further ahead, to make us a real threat.

One thing I will say, is that I don't believe its essential to have a "1st midfielder" or perhaps even "2nd" as such, but is required in this situation, is some genuine quality forwards and defenders. If you classify Hodge as a defender, I wouldn't say Hawthorn have a midfielder who is of "1st midfielder" quality, what they do have though, is a number of quality blokes below this, a couple of genuine quality forwards and Luke Hodge shoring up the defence.

Geelong have that elite midfield, with a quality defence, but suspect forward line. West Coast had that elite midfield with a solid defence and more than suspect forward line. Sydney barring Goodes and maybe Hall were extremely working class. There is no "perfect" formula to win a premiership, a lot of the time its just the luck of the draw or the bounce of a ball.

 

[Crow-mo]

At the moment, we most certainly lack a couple of blue chip midfielders, or 1st/2nd midfielders as Crowmo refers to them, however, what I do see when I look at our list, is a number of players who I feel could develop into these positions, whether they get there or not, remains to be seen. IMO Douglas, Mackay, Vince and Dangerfield all have this ability to be game changing midfielders. If one or two of these blokes can really step up, then we have plenty of the "lesser" mids such as Thommo, Reilly, VB, Knights, even an Otten, Cook, Petrenko etc. looking further ahead, to make us a real threat.

see the thing here is, I see very little at this stage that those guys will make it as front of the rotation midfielders or game changers thats just wishful thinking. Douglas has shown nothing yet, dangerfield has no history to refer to, MacKay and Vince - again, how good? the others, you gotta remember they are surplus to requirements if they don't really step up. thommo is not a lesser mid, but he is definitely 'mature' with little room for improvement. Reilly is a greatly overated player. at very best a 4th midfielder. VB is our blue collar, 3rd/4th type. guys like otten/cook might be more dynamic wingman types, than anything inside.

rather than make us a real threat, these guys could emphasise the duplication we have in the lower reaches.

One thing I will say, is that I don't believe its essential to have a "1st midfielder" or perhaps even "2nd" as such, but is required in this situation, is some genuine quality forwards and defenders. If you classify Hodge as a defender, I wouldn't say Hawthorn have a midfielder who is of "1st midfielder" quality, what they do have though, is a number of quality blokes below this, a couple of genuine quality forwards and Luke Hodge shoring up the defence.

firstly, I do not consider Hodge a defender. he's an elite mid, who as part of their game plan has been corralling their defensive half; he is no more a defender than McLeod. remember 2007 elimination final, when the game was in the balance, hodge was in the guts and drove them to victory. he is a phenomenal player.
on top that you have sam mitchell and Jordan Lewis. top class both of them. well supported by Sewell (massively underated run with player) and look at the rate of improvement in Xavier Ellis. Ellis should be the lightning rod for Douglas and his progression by the end of 2009.

Hawthorns Midfield is not quite as star studded as Geelong's, West Coast before that, or even ours - but it is good. very good and tough. It is also aided by a stategy from the box that complements and adds to what they do; the sort of innovation we've not really seen since 2005.

and of course, they have the best double act up forward since Brereton & Dunstall. or Carey and anyone

Geelong have that elite midfield, with a quality defence, but suspect forward line. West Coast had that elite midfield with a solid defence and more than suspect forward line. Sydney barring Goodes and maybe Hall were extremely working class. There is no "perfect" formula to win a premiership, a lot of the time its just the luck of the draw or the bounce of a ball.

there is luck involved I grant you. but Geelong's forward line is MUCH better than you give them credit for. Steve Johnson, Mooney, Chapman, Stokes and a resting Gablett... I also think West Coasts wasn't as bad some made out, much like ours in 2005. it was actually pretty good, to the astute observer.

the real point here is that if you have an elite midfield, you don't need as much up front. if not, you need Buddy & Roughy.

we've got a lot of vanilla pieces, and we are hoping that some break from the pack to be front of the line players. I don't, and have never, liked the element of pure hope involved. after all, there are only so many places on a flank and so many roles for 3rd talls.

this year, we need to be clear if we have anyone who is going to be front of the line type class. not piss and wind forlorn hope from the bleachers with fingers tightly crossed. I don't think our direction or what we are trying to do is clear. that needs to become readily apparent and clear in 2009.

 

[James23]

I wouldnt rule Petrenko and Cook out of becoming blue chip midfielders in the future either

It's early signs yet, but they do have the potential and have shown glimpses at SANFL level that they could one day become stars.

The optimist in me also sees us building a premium forward line for 2011+. With Walker looking a likely type, and the hype surrounding Davis due to Rendells comments. That is 2potentially elite forwards to build a team around IMO - let's hope they work out.

 

[Crow-mo]

I wouldnt rule Petrenko and Cook out of becoming blue chip midfielders in the future either

that's the problem: meaningless hyperbole.

It's early signs yet, but they do have the potential and have shown glimpses at SANFL level that they could one day become stars.

not yet they haven't. you're setting the bar too low. there is a helluva big jump to being blue chip afl midfielders. this is all hit n hope. when does it stop?

The optimist in me also sees us building a premium forward line for 2011+. With Walker looking a likely type, and the hype surrounding Davis due to Rendells comments. That is 2potentially elite forwards to build a team around IMO - let's hope they work out.

but you said it yourself, sheer optimism.
2011+ what are we richmond? always tomorrow, never today.

enough with the fluff!
(that should be our catch phrase for 2009!!! )

 

[Mismatched]

see the thing here is, I see very little at this stage that those guys will make it as front of the rotation midfielders or game changers thats just wishful thinking. Douglas has shown nothing yet, dangerfield has no history to refer to, MacKay and Vince - again, how good? the others, you gotta remember they are surplus to requirements if they don't really step up. thommo is not a lesser mid, but he is definitely 'mature' with little room for improvement. Reilly is a greatly overated player. at very best a 4th midfielder. VB is our blue collar, 3rd/4th type. guys like otten/cook might be more dynamic wingman types, than anything inside.

rather than make us a real threat, these guys could emphasise the duplication we have in the lower reaches. .

Thats well and good, but I remember back in 2006, the biggest criticism of Geelong was that they had no star midfielders, blokes like Gablett, Bartell, Corey etc. were definitely not the stars today and few if any would have predicted the meteoric rise of these players into the games elite. Tyson Edwards in the 90's was in and out of the side and was probably lucky to play in both the premiership sides, he certainly wasn't a certain starter at that stage, who would have thought he'd become the player he did.

Now I'm not saying because these guys made it, the blokes I quoted are definites as well, they're just ones I see with the tools or ability to make it and okay maybe I'm a touch optimistic, but that's my right as a fan.

firstly, I do not consider Hodge a defender. he's an elite mid, who as part of their game plan has been corralling their defensive half; he is no more a defender than McLeod. remember 2007 elimination final, when the game was in the balance, hodge was in the guts and drove them to victory. he is a phenomenal player.
on top that you have sam mitchell and Jordan Lewis. top class both of them. well supported by Sewell (massively underated run with player) and look at the rate of improvement in Xavier Ellis. Ellis should be the lightning rod for Douglas and his progression by the end of 2009.

Hawthorns Midfield is not quite as star studded as Geelong's, West Coast before that, or even ours - but it is good. very good and tough. It is also aided by a stategy from the box that complements and adds to what they do; the sort of innovation we've not really seen since 2005.

and of course, they have the best double act up forward since Brereton & Dunstall. or Carey and anyone .

Hodge was a midfielder up until maybe half way through last year, when he moved back into the Andrew Mcleod quarter back role and if you class that as a midfielder then thats fine, then Hawthorn have got a superstar midfielder, the rest are good, just no one quite in that top tier other than Hodge.

there is luck involved I grant you. but Geelong's forward line is MUCH better than you give them credit for. Steve Johnson, Mooney, Chapman, Stokes and a resting Gablett... I also think West Coasts wasn't as bad some made out, much like ours in 2005. it was actually pretty good, to the astute observer.

the real point here is that if you have an elite midfield, you don't need as much up front. if not, you need Buddy & Roughy.

we've got a lot of vanilla pieces, and we are hoping that some break from the pack to be front of the line players. I don't, and have never, liked the element of pure hope involved. after all, there are only so many places on a flank and so many roles for 3rd talls.

this year, we need to be clear if we have anyone who is going to be front of the line type class. not piss and wind forlorn hope from the bleachers with fingers tightly crossed. I don't think our direction or what we are trying to do is clear. that needs to become readily apparent and clear in 2009.

With everything in footy there is "pure hope involved", you can have a plan as much as you like, be it tanking for draft picks, playing a team of 20 years olds, trading away 1st round draft picks etc. but in the end there's no guarantee with anything you do, just look at St. Kilda, Richmond or Fremantle, a heap of low draft picks over the past 10 or so years, but has all come to nought.

Beyond this I agree with what you are saying, I just guess, rightly or wrongly I'm a touch more optimistic about our future and see a bit more in a few of our players.

 

[Symesy15]

From AFC Website:

Adelaide has made just one change to last week’s initial 29-man squad for the trip to Alice Springs on Friday.

Running defender Tony Armstrong has replaced Aaron Kite in the 29 to prepare to play West Coast in the NAB Challenge game on Friday night.

The group will train at AAMI Stadium on Thursday from 10am and a squad of 26 will leave Adelaide on Friday morning.

Kite made his debut for the Crows in last Saturday’s NAB Cup first round match against Geelong Cats at Telstra Stadium. Rory Sloane, Patrick Dangerfield and Chris Schmidt were the three players who dropped out of last week’s squad.

The 29-man squad is: Gill, Moran, Reilly, Thompson, Griffin, Cook, Edwards, Jacky, Doughty, Shirley, Walker, Mackay, Vince, Johncock, Maric, Knights, Otten, McLeod, Stevens, Sellar, Sloane, Dangerfield, Petrenko, Goodwin, Hentschel, Armstrong, Bock, Martin, Schmidt.

 

[cmndstab]

Awesome, Danger time! Glad to see Armstrong in too, he was great in the IAS match.

 

[Jars458]

Not great for Kite's confidence to be subbed out and now dropped, or is he injured?

 

[JuddyisGod]

No. Surname First name
1 Gill Nick
2 Moran Brad
3 Reilly Brent
5 Thompson Scott
6 Griffin Jonathon
9 Edwards Tyson
10 Jacky Jarrhan
11 Doughty Michael
12 Shirley Robert
13 Walker Taylor
14 Mackay David
17 Vince Bernie
18 Johncock Graham
20 Maric Ivan
21 Knights Chris
22 Otten Andrew
23 McLeod Andrew
27 Stevens Scott
29 Sellar James
31 Sloane Rory
32 Dangerfield Patrick
33 Petrenko Jared
34 Cook Myke
36 Goodwin Simon
37 Hentschel Trent
38 Armstrong Tony
41 Martin Brodie
44 Bock Nathan
46 Schmidt Chris

 

[cmndstab]

Not great for Kite's confidence to be subbed out and now dropped, or is he injured?

Let's be honest, he just didn't look up to it in the last two matches. People like Martin and Cook have drawn criticism in some areas but have done well in other areas. Kite really didn't do anything good in those two matches.

 

[WALL-e]

Kites young, has huge upside and just needs a few low level games to help learnt he position better as well as the ins and outs.

 

[beartoo]

Probably would have been good to give Kite another run and maybe rest one of the older players. Good to see Armstrong in the 29. Hope he plays. Looked mighty impressive against the All-Stars. I'm assuming that 3 players will drop off that list, or do we have a more extended bench?
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they would be dressed as a lion in Tasmania when the game is played.
Please explain?

 

[Double the Fist]

Hopefully the hit out ends with no casualties. Good to see Scotty H up and about last week for you guys. I am also looking forward to seeing what Dangerfield can do.
Really interested to see how Danger does in the next couple of years, passing on Ebert was a sensation for us, so It be nice to see the Crows get a quality player too.
Your young guys well probably give a better show against WC for this game. Comming up against the cats was tough

good luck for the year

 

[Alex99]

Hopefully the hit out ends with no casualties. Good to see Scotty H up and about last week for you guys. I am also looking forward to seeing what Dangerfield can do.
Really interested to see how Danger does in the next couple of years, passing on Ebert was a sensation for us, so It be nice to see the Crows get a quality player too.
Your young guys well probably give a better show against WC for this game. Comming up against the cats was tough

good luck for the year

Who?

Do you mean Trent Hentschel ? if so then yeah.

 

[Vader]

The selections for this game will be very interesting.

Last week there was something (albeit miniscule) on the line - win and we remained in the hunt for the MMC. Thus there was a reason for playing our strongest available team.

This week there's nothing on the line. It's a practice match pure and simple. Pride is the only thing on the line. There's no benefit to winning (other than establishing a winning habit/culture) and everything to lose if one of our veterans gets injured.

Last week Kite was a member of the 26, this week he's out of the 29. It will be interesting to see which of the other 4 (Dangermouse, Schmidt, Armstrong & Sloane) replaces him. It will also be interesting to see if there are any other changes.

Neil Craig was talking this week (yesterday's Ragvertiser) about the "pain" and "courage" involved with playing the kids. I wonder how much courage he is willing to show this week - and how much pain he is willing to endure as a result.

Just as an aside, it's my understanding that there's no limit to the number of players we can use in these bush league matches. This was certainly the case in previous years. I wonder why we have gone with a squad of 26?

 

[KUNG FU]

Honestly though, if you thought that Kite should ideally play in 2009, give yourself a slap on the wrist. He only played last week because he is a possible as a 3rd tall defensive option. Considering he is under-aged (borderline) project player, had a couple minor pre-season interruptions and still quite slight, the worst thing we could do is ruin his body or confidence playing chucking him in too early.

 

[Chief Crow]

Just had a look at the west coast squad. They have named a near full strength team. Will be another good test for our youngsters. Excellent opportunity for the kids, especially our young mids to line up against Cox, Kerr and co.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

I think the "problem" was that he took our list and instantly made it one of the most competitive units in the competition. Which meant that, since we were seriously challenging for a flag for a couple of years there, development went out the window. It's really only the last few years that development has been a serious focus for Craig, and hopefully now is the time we should start to see some results of that.


We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

Mate, you are on the ball. Couldnt agre with you more. He had no chance to rebuild because he turned a team past its premiership window back to a premiership contender. If thats a crime, sack him. Thank goodness the people who make the decisions at the AFC see it that way aswell. Let him build a team and judge him in three years. NC is the best thing to happen to our club

 

[Freddy Bassett]

after a half a decade he doesn't get the luxury of making excuses about the list.
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009

he's heading into his 6th season, been there long enough now...

but again, allow me to distance myself from the irrational ravings of a whack job. somewhere between there, and the blind devotion to Craig I think the truth lies.

Blind Devotion.... Maybe.... But how is your Blind Devotion towards a young key forward of ours? Works both ways.... And I admire you for still having faith in him and if he comes even half good you are a champion

 

[-CG-]

Does anyone know what time the game starts?

 

[Riggy1]

Does anyone know what time the game starts?

I think I saw it once. Its either 7:30 ACT (NT)
or 7:30 ACDT (SA)

Edit:
Sorry its 7:00 ACT.

So i think thats 8 here. or 6. I hate Daylight savings

 

[-CG-]

Thanks for that

Wish it was earlier here, but oh well..

 

[Riggy1]

Thanks for that

Wish it was earlier here, but oh well..

I just wish it was here