Crows vs Power drafting 2004-2008

[amer]

few things:
1. this has nothing to do with the point I am questioning - how does this show that Craig has impacted drafting?
2. you make no weighting for draft number
3. you make no mention of draft quality
4. all that you show is that craig has been relatively constant - so how is he the variable in james fantasia's drafting record?

but lets consider a few things, you obviously aren't aware of.

1999 - we traded picks for Clarke & Welsh. huge wins
2000 - shitty draft. fantasia wanted Kornes. but still picked Johncock
2001 - Reilly not terrible, but ultimately disappointing. though Matter, Bock & Rutten go ok.
2002 - worst draft in a decade.
2003 - arguably worse than 2002. this matters, even if you think it doesn't.
2004 - the craig era on.

the only vague argument put forward that Craig is making Fantasia's draft record look good, is the recent success with some of the latter picks - which would be fine, if it didn't ignore the 1st round picks.

if Craig's intervention has had a big impact, why has it not impacted the high cost, high talent first round picks under his charge too?

why?

because the theory is unstable and incorrect. that's why.

Gee whiz, disappointing that you'd come back with the first sentence in bold. Here crow-mo, I'll make it easy, real quick, piece of cake even for you!

*ahem* You directly quoted cmndstab who said that our drafting improved once Neil Craig took over the job. He didn't say the drafting improved -because- Neil Craig took over the job, understood? He also didn't talk about development, 1st rounders vs 3rd rounders, dodgy talent or any of the other trash you've thrown up in an attempt to make it look like you've got some sort of point versus what we're saying. A boom pick is a boom pick - you want to play around with weightings too? Be my guest but it will make little difference, and shows you're clutching at the flimsiest of straws.

You chose to disagree with the notion that we have drafted better post-Ayers than while Ayers was here, and you are flat out wrong. That is the point being made, there is no getting around it. Take your licks, this is done.

 

[amer]

Bock, Mattner & Rutten say hi.

This shows that either a) you don't read at all or b) you've confused yourself into a corner rather than simply conceding and you just don't know what to say anymore.

Bock and Rutten have already been covered, both are boom picks off the rookie list for us. Mattner was average. Porplyzia is a boom pick under Craig, while Petrenko and Martin are likely. Henderson is also promising. If all three of those join Porps as boom picks, we've been more successful with the rookie list in this era as well.

Simples.

 

[cmndstab]

but as you are disagreeing with me, I don't care what else you're trying talk about.

its not relevant, unless you're making an independent argument of what I am saying - at which point, that has nothing to do with me.

if you want disagree with me, you have to focus on what I am saying. and you are not obligated to disagree with me.

if you want to take a position independent of that, fine.

In fact, it is you who is disagreeing with my statement that drafting improved once Craig took over from Ayers. Of course, that hasn't stopped you from trying to attack from different angles when you realised you were wrong.

 

[Powerade 08]

I'll give it a go and be as unbiased as possible, and remembering I don't know as much about your list as I do Ports.

Crows draft choices are in bold.

2004: You guys killed us in this one. Van Berlo is solid and a future captain, Chris Knights is a handful up forward on his day, Ivan Maric gets the job done in the ruck but is nothing special, can go forward to kick 1 or 2 which is another positive.

Terrible for us. We got Pearce off the rookie list who can be a match winner or go missing from week to week.

2005:Win to you guys. The Crows get Bernie Vince who this year really blossomed and was one of the top 20 mids for the year. Porplyzia who is everything you want in a small forward and Douglas who is average.

Our new recruiter is Blair Hartley and we have traded our first rounder away. Still, he gets us a steal in Carlile who has hardly put a foot wrong, Matt Thomas who has been in our starting 22 for most of the year and adds some toughness but still needs to improve quite a bit. Lower is close to delistment.

2006: Port win easily, probably our best draft up until this time. Travis Boak, Robert Gray, Justin Westhoff looked at home playing in the AFL in their first seasons. The Hoff has fallen away after getting more attention from opposition and plays a good quater of footy in each game. Needs to put on weight. Krakouer has all the tools to be a great player, and has shown his potential in glimpses, started getting regular games this year. Stewart is a good depth player. Oh, and we picked up Rodan in the PSD.

The Crows get Kurt Tippet Who is potentially the best player to come out of this draft from both clubs. McKay has slotted into the starting 22. Sellar has been disappointing but is still getting games at AFL level, Gill looked ok at times but is finished now (?)

2007: You guys win. Andy Otten suprised me this year. Patty Dangerfield shows massive potential but hasn't yet taken a game apart. Taylor Walker, I'm a big fan. Also picked up some good depth players.

Port: Lobbe is killing it in the SANFL, but is still unproven. Salter is pretty unproven too at this stage but from what we have seen he looks a player. Marlon could be a good crumber in the future.

2008: Port easily. Could change in a few years, but many people rate our 2008 draft as the best or close to the best from all clubs. Half of the players we drafted have already played AFL games and Trengove was a massive steal. Don't know enough about the Crows newest draftees to comment.

So in summary:
2004 - Adelaide
2005 - Adelaide
2006 - Port
2007 - Adelaide
2008 - Port

Unless we f*** up royally we should come out on top in 2009 to even it all out.

 

[amer]

but as you are disagreeing with me, I don't care what else you're trying talk about.

its not relevant, unless you're making an independent argument of what I am saying - at which point, that has nothing to do with me.

if you want disagree with me, you have to focus on what I am saying. and you are not obligated to disagree with me.

if you want to take a position independent of that, fine.

Ah yes, the get out clause. Right on cue crow-mo.

*sigh*

YOU TOOK ISSUE WITH A POINT OF CMNDSTAB'S, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!

ffs

Argument over anyway.

 

[Crow-mo]

now onto your point.

What I'm trying to say is that, if Craig had been in charge, I think there is a very good chance that Watts would not have been our first round selection at the end of the 03 season.

I can't see any evidence or reason why. who else would we have taken? wouldn't have changed much, it was a horrible draft.

We picked up an average of one decent player a year in the ND from 99-03. One player per year!

but we traded first and second round picks to acquire players. which is relevant if you want to take the view we only got one player a year.
lets add in who we got.

99 - Clarke & Welsh. + Rhett Biglands yes please.

00 - Johncock. & Bode (for Rehn)

01. - Reilly, Bock, Mattner, Rutten.

02 - horrible, horrible draft. but still netted as Torney & Shirley.
(a lot better result that many got from that year)

03 - horrible, just ugly draft. Scott Stevens, Ben Hudson was a massive pick in that year.

you can't say we only picked up one player from the draft if you ignore what we got by trading picks, at which point we didn't get just one player out of each draft.

by which time we are now in 2004.

At that rate players would retire before we'd managed to field a full squad of decent players. It's a bit early to make calls on the 07 and 08 class yet but we're averaging over 2 players a year in the new regime, even if Douglas doesn't make it.

not only have I just shown this not to be correct, you should have been able to intuit it by looking at our senior squad.

If your position is that the drafting didn't improve but rather player management and development did making Fantasia and Rendell look better than they did/would have under the old regime, fine. I can see the merit in that argument. But I believe that it's a bit of both.

My position remains, and seeing as you went out of your way to disagree with me its not unreasonable to expect you to have read what I said, that Fantasia did a good job for us, and that I disagree with the argument that Craig made him look good - as Craig was a constant in both good and bad drafting. .

Fanta provided the bulk of our current, consistently finals making teams, yet gets no credit for it.

 

[cmndstab]

Appreciate the effort to do an unbiased look at it Powerade It's a bit much to state that Port definitely won 2008 without knowing anything about the Crows choices though But I take your point, it looks like being a very good year for you guys. I think the names of Davis, McKernan, Sloane and possibly Young will mean something to you in a couple of years though, and I still think Henderson has a future at AFL level.

 

[amer]

I'll give it a go and be as unbiased as possible, and remembering I don't know as much about your list as I do Ports.

Crows draft choices are in bold.

2004: You guys killed us in this one. Van Berlo is solid and a future captain, Chris Knights is a handful up forward on his day, Ivan Maric gets the job done in the ruck but is nothing special, can go forward to kick 1 or 2 which is another positive.

Terrible for us. We got Pearce off the rookie list who can be a match winner or go missing from week to week.

2005:Win to you guys. The Crows get Bernie Vince who this year really blossomed and was one of the top 20 mids for the year. Porplyzia who is everything you want in a small forward and Douglas who is average.

Our new recruiter is Blair Hartley and we have traded our first rounder away. Still, he gets us a steal in Carlile who has hardly put a foot wrong, Matt Thomas who has been in our starting 22 for most of the year and adds some toughness but still needs to improve quite a bit. Lower is close to delistment.

2006: Port win easily, probably our best draft up until this time. Travis Boak, Robert Gray, Justin Westhoff looked at home playing in the AFL in their first seasons. The Hoff has fallen away after getting more attention from opposition and plays a good quater of footy in each game. Needs to put on weight. Krakouer has all the tools to be a great player, and has shown his potential in glimpses, started getting regular games this year. Stewart is a good depth player. Oh, and we picked up Rodan in the PSD.

The Crows get Kurt Tippet Who is potentially the best player to come out of this draft from both clubs. McKay has slotted into the starting 22. Sellar has been disappointing but is still getting games at AFL level, Gill looked ok at times but is finished now (?)

2007: You guys win. Andy Otten suprised me this year. Patty Dangerfield shows massive potential but hasn't yet taken a game apart. Taylor Walker, I'm a big fan. Also picked up some good depth players.

Port: Lobbe is killing it in the SANFL, but is still unproven. Salter is pretty unproven too at this stage but from what we have seen he looks a player. Marlon could be a good crumber in the future.

2008: Port easily. Could change in a few years, but many people rate our 2008 draft as the best or close to the best from all clubs. Half of the players we drafted have already played AFL games and Trengove was a massive steal. Don't know enough about the Crows newest draftees to comment.

So in summary:
2004 - Adelaide
2005 - Adelaide
2006 - Port
2007 - Adelaide
2008 - Port

Unless we f*** up royally we should come out on top in 2009 to even it all out.

Agree with all bar 2008, simply because of how early in the piece it is. We still haven't seen Phil Davis (who Rendell rated ahead of every player Port drafted, even Hartlett), we've seen just one game out of both McKernan and Sloane (both of whom are rated very highly) and so on. Fwiw, both clubs will prove to have done exceptionally well out of this draft imo. But yeah, calls on who won 2008...we just can't make a reliable call as yet. Pretty much on the mark with all the other years though.

 

[Crow-mo]

In fact, it is you who is disagreeing with my statement that drafting improved once Craig took over from Ayers. Of course, that hasn't stopped you from trying to attack from different angles when you realised you were wrong.

but I am not wrong.

tell me how you can say Craig is a positive intervention in the drafting of Chris Knights, and not John Meesen or Chad Gibson?

if you can do that, you're right and I am wrong. but as you can't

 

[Powerade 08]

Appreciate the effort to do an unbiased look at it Powerade It's a bit much to state that Port definitely won 2008 without knowing anything about the Crows choices though But I take your point, it looks like being a very good year for you guys. I think the names of Davis, McKernan, Sloane and possibly Young will mean something to you in a couple of years though, and I still think Henderson has a future at AFL level.

I rate McKernan and would happily take him on our list and if it didn't look like our backline will be packed with tall defenders next year (Chaplin, Carlile, Trengove and Chad) I'd also happily take Davis. Really rate both of them, but because I know nothing about the others I didn't want to make an ass of myself.

 

[amer]

but I am not wrong.

tell me how you can say Craig is a positive intervention in the drafting of Chris Knights, and not John Meesen or Chad Gibson?

if you can do that, you're right and I am wrong. but as you can't

Have we picked up more guns under Craig than under Ayers? Yes. So cmndstab is right to say what he said.

Case.****ing.Closed.

 

[Crow-mo]

Bock and Rutten have already been covered, both are boom picks off the rookie list for us.

Mattner was average. Porplyzia is a boom pick under Craig, while Petrenko and Martin are likely. Henderson is also promising. If all three of those join Porps as boom picks, we've been more successful with the rookie list in this era as well.

BTW Mattner has been great for sydney, try watching another team sometime.

what era is this? the Fanta/craig years that counts, or the Fanta/craig years you want to sweep under the carpet?

 

[Crow-mo]

Have we picked up more guns under Craig than under Ayers? Yes. So cmndstab is right to say what he said.

Case.****ing.Closed.

lol. ok, sure.

that really tells us a lot about the recruiting manager who made the picks and was constant under both.

its all so clear now

 

[Crow-mo]

Ah yes, the get out clause. Right on cue crow-mo.

*sigh*

YOU TOOK ISSUE WITH A POINT OF CMNDSTAB'S, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!

ffs

Argument over anyway.

BTW genius:


post 11

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16010101&postcount=11

also shows how ignorant some of the criticisms of Fantasia were.

post 16
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16015306&postcount=16

quoting post 11

It is interesting to see how much better his picking became as soon as Craig took over the top job though.

post 20
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16016192&postcount=20

quoting post 20

Really?

John Meesen, Fergus Watts, and Darren Pfeiffer all say hello. Douglas & Sellar aren't great returns for 1st round picks. all of whom were consensus picks at their draft slots or earlier.

but the caps lock almost had me convinced.

 

[amer]

BTW genius:


post 11

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16010101&postcount=11



post 16
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16015306&postcount=16

quoting post 11



post 20
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16016192&postcount=20

quoting post 20


but the caps lock almost had me convinced.

So...because you posted before him, you weren't questioning what he said? I quote the first word of your post following his point:

"Really?"



Certainly he didn't go questioning what -you- said, you've just shown us plain as day.

C'mon crow-mo, make like Cut 'N' Move and give it up.

 

[Crow-mo]

So...because you posted before him, you weren't questioning what he said? I quote the first word of your post following his point:

"Really?"



Certainly he didn't go questioning what -you- said, you've just shown us plain as day.

C'mon crow-mo, make like Cut 'N' Move and give it up.

you know, you can stick your fingers in your ears, chant la-la-la all day long it still won't make 2 + 2 = 22.

but if you think it help, then go ahead.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

OK, seems like we have a few people who want argue with me - but are struggling to keep focus on what it is they disagree with.

Since when has that mattered?

Crows recent drafting has been much better than previously & we we have managed to build our best squad -period. We have been much better in in building our squad in Craig era than Ayres era ... such that we don't need to get involved in trading if we wish not to

 

[Hodgy]

Have we picked up more guns under Craig than under Ayers? Yes. So cmndstab is right to say what he said.

Case.****ing.Closed.

Excuse me for puting my two cents worth in on a private argument but I think most people would feel that we have drafted better since we have had Craig but that this has not been proved conclusively yet. We made three prelims between 02 and 06 with a squad that was mainly put together by Ayres and Fantasia wereas this team has only finished 5th. You simply cant make three prelims in a few years without good players so we had to be doing something right in our recruiting. I feel Cro-mo is right in saying that Ayres got most of his team through trading early picks while Craig prefers to draft the best available youth (interestingly enough as there is someone on here who swears Craig is anti youth). I sincerely hope this current crop shows that we have got better at recruiting overall, and I believe they will, but this is not nececerally anything to do with Craig as it could be that the whole team of recruiters and particularly Fantasia have got better as they have more experience and Rendell seems good so far as well. So even though I couldn't follow 90% of what Cro-mo has put forward, in general I have to agree with him that Fantasia never gets the credit that he is due (except by the Bulldogs obviously) and overall our recruiting has been pretty good.

 

[cmndstab]

I don't think I can convince you to see what I'm saying Crow-mo so let's just leave it be.

For the record I do rate Fantasia, even though I think he got better as his time with us went on. Whether that was partially due to Craig or not is one thing but believe me, I give Fantasia the bulk of the credit. If anything, my argument is that Ayers held him back.

 

[The Crows Truth]

why do you want to see another team when discussing our own development.

stay focussed.

coming from the Digression King and Prince of Circularity = LOL

ok staying focussed lets try again shall we with a simple question....did Fantasias recruiting improve under the Craig era relative to the Ayres era? Yes or No?

 

[Alberton_Magpie]

Id have it as
Adelaide: 2004, 2005, 2007
Port Adelaide: 2006, 2008

 

[Sekaj]

Id have it as
Adelaide: 2004, 2005, 2007
Port Adelaide: 2006, 2008

2008? On what basis?

Players like Davis, McKernan and Sloane may be largely unproven but have shown plenty of promising signs so far.

 

[Macca19]

08 looks pretty even at this point I reckon. Davis Mckernan and Sloane look good. As do Hartlett, Broadbent and Trengove.

If Davis and Mckernan become very good players, the Crows win as they are KPP.

 

[Mego Red]

It does seem like our drafting improved once Ayers was replaced by Craig. Maybe Fantasia was able to do a better job, maybe our list focus changed - but looking at the list of players it seems pretty black and white.

 

[chadleverington]

Just add one quick note here, Of course Adelaide drafted better in 04 and 07 (we played in the GFs and of course had lower selections). Pretty obvious that higher picks helps (as it helped us in 2008)

Both clubs have had some good selections in recent years (and some "interesting" selections), and far too early to determine all of them.

Adelaide looking to see how McKernan and Sloane develop, Port looking to see how Lobbe, Trengove and Banner develop.