Crunch time

[you pick one]

VERY selective editing on your part.

No cheap free kicks here VEEDUBS

 

[Belisarius]

It seems Varcoe performances divides a few Cat fans from time to time. I think I am in the middle. He does tend to play in patches and is unlikely to be an inside mid for us. He does however bring pace to the side and some excellent touches.

IMO if he added maybe another 5 possies, another tackle and goal - he would be a seriously dangerous player for us. He may well do this in the next 2 seasons - as he is about that age and experience when players seem to really show off their wares.

He is a good player not a stand out player for me.

I think he will improve next season - at least marginally.

However I suspect West and Duncan will be the two biggest improvers next season. Bundy will also get better with experience.

The unknowns for me are of the players I expect to get a senior game or two next season at some stage are - Simpson, the Big O ring, THunt, Menzel and Vardy (due to injuries already sustained), Cowan, Gillies, Hogan, Guthrie - and maybe Bathie.

We need to replace Ottens, Ling, Mooney and Milburn - all retired now.

It seems that Hawkins will take Moons' place, and the rest of the positions are up for grabs.

So we need another mid (maybe Duncan, Hogan or THunt), maybe a backman and definately a ruckman.

I reckon we will get 2-3 players out of the group mentioned above - and just as long as one of them is a first ruckman - we will be fine next season.

West looked really good to me as a second ruckman - against players of his own size. From what I saw he will be a good tap ruckman, take marks around the ground and can go forward if needed.

The Big O ring was an astute move on behalf of the Cats - as even though Simpson looks quite likely to me - he is raw and is unlikely to be able to play consistently for 22 matches and then the finals. If the combination of the Big O and Simpson work out well for us - that is they are competitive against the better AFL ruckman - we would have kept that Premiership window open for another year.

I just cannot imagine that with the group coming up - we will not get some good players from that list - that will help take us into another finals campaign.

If you put our last 5 year performances into context - many general footy fans may not be aware how much we have had to overcome to be the best team in the last half decade. The loss of Thompson, Ablett, Costa, Egan, assistant coaches, that horrible 2008 GF loss and that poor performance against the Pies in 2010.

Then the inevitable loss of player thru retirement - Harley, Ottens, Ling, Milburn and Mooney. Some pretty big performers there - and leadership.

No one would expect a team to lose so many players and administraters and still be a force.

And yet thru all that adversity - we have succeeded and brilliantly.

Why not back them again to do the unbelievable. Have 2-3 players come thru the GFC system, make a contribution next season and win another flag ?

It is definately do-able. The only weakness I see is maybe the first ruck position - and maybe the need for one more quality mid. The backs will be fine, and if Pods overcomes his injury in good shape, the forward line with SJ and Chappy down there will be fine - and even better if Menzel can do a Lazarus next season.

Oh the joy, the pure joy.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

many general footy fans may not be aware how much we have had to overcome to be the best team in the last half decade. The loss of Thompson, Ablett, Costa, Egan, assistant coaches, that horrible 2008 GF loss and that poor performance against the Pies in 2010.

G/N Ablett, Thompson, Egan (AA), Harley, Rooke, Costa, Prismall (ACL never the same), Blake & now we add Ling, Mooney, Ottens, Milburn

 

[Belisarius]

G/N Ablett, Thompson, Egan (AA), Harley, Rooke, Costa, Prismall (ACL never the same), Blake & now we add Ling, Mooney, Ottens, Milburn

Bloody hell - forgot to mention the loss of Rooke. How quickly we can forget. Really rated him as a tremendous team player.

 

[maxy87]

IMO we always overlook the possibility that players are given a role we are unaware of. Varcoe appears to be under instruction to MOT risk his shoulders unless absolutely necessary. I think it took him half a season to get the balance right. Also I wouldn't be surprised if he is told to constantly "attack space", thereby creating room for other players until we get clear possession, at which point he becomes a key link, carry and run player. This can make his possession counts almost irrelevant. Maybe he gets bagged for disappearing in a quarter when he's told to drag his man away from the corridor from time to time.
As for Stokes...severely under-rated imo, even in here. Is becoming very much an on-field leader in our F50 and very important structurally.

Agree with your words re: Varcoe. You sound like a football coach. Seriously, what value is a player of Varcoes pace and polish if he is on his knees trying to get hard balls (especially with his shoulder issues)? As I've said time and again, leave that to our proven ball winners. Having players with speed occupying space is another addition to an otherwise slow side which helps the Cats be the best side

 

[Rosso]

G/N Ablett, Thompson, Egan (AA), Harley, Rooke, Costa, Prismall (ACL never the same), Blake & now we add Ling, Mooney, Ottens, Milburn

Add Mumford & Laidler to that list too.

Funny though, I was thinking today that if Egan didn't get injured, odds are that Harry Taylor would be elsewhere and Lonners would probably not been used to such success as a key defender, and therefore not be on our list. Amazing the reaction that is caused by one single instance.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Add Mumford & Laidler to that list too.

Funny though, I was thinking today that if Egan didn't get injured, odds are that Harry Taylor would be elsewhere and Lonners would probably not been used to such success as a key defender, and therefore not be on our list. Amazing the reaction that is caused by one single instance.

Lonners was the Norm Goss medalist for best afield in our 2007 VFL Grand Final win over Coburg, playing both as a defender AND a forward. Here's his acceptance speech;

[youtube]m9Esywd0aUw[/youtube]

I'd say he would have had a future at the club regardless.

 

[Vdubs]

Agree with your words re: Varcoe. You sound like a football coach. Seriously, what value is a player of Varcoes pace and polish if he is on his knees trying to get hard balls (especially with his shoulder issues)? As I've said time and again, leave that to our proven ball winners. Having players with speed occupying space is another addition to an otherwise slow side which helps the Cats be the best side

A few of us have been trying to say that all year. Spot on.

 

[vinum coupe]

It will be interesting to see how Varcoe goes with a full preseason for a change.
By seasons end he had a pretty big tank.

Maybe he can build some strength and increase his endurance further for next season. In my opinion he needs to gain the confidence to break tackles. Once he does that he will go up a notch in output.

Will he end up being our best player? I hope not.

 

[witsend]

It will be interesting to see how Varcoe goes with a full preseason for a change.
By seasons end he had a pretty big tank.

Maybe he can build some strength and increase his endurance further for next season. In my opinion he needs to gain the confidence to break tackles. Once he does that he will go up a notch in output.

Will he end up being our best player? I hope not.

That's Bundy's job! (or maybe Duncan...)

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I reckon it's fair to say that had he not have played in round 9 then we likely lose that match and of course his GF performance was magnificent and in our top 5 or so players on the day.

He's 23 going on 24 years but I reckon 2011 was his best season yet despite his previous years stats and he's definitely taken a step forward in his development like Hawkins has so 2012 there won't be any worries.

You're letting a couple of nice goals in the GF and admittedly crucial cameos in a couple of H&A games cloud your judgement. No way was Varcoe better in 2011 than 2010.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Add Mumford & Laidler to that list too.

Funny though, I was thinking today that if Egan didn't get injured, odds are that Harry Taylor would be elsewhere and Lonners would probably not been used to such success as a key defender, and therefore not be on our list. Amazing the reaction that is caused by one single instance.

I forgot about the sausage man

My goodness me we have lost a heap of talent and managed to stay on top.
I don't really rate Laidler but if we were able to keep Mumford, it's a scary thought for opposition teams.

Yeh..I think Egan and the clubs desire to get him back within the following weeks for finals may have been the clincher, will always be one of the saddest memories for me. I remember going to many games throughout 07 and watching Egan totally destroy the best forwards, he was a brilliant contested mark and with his wide frame, was basically impossible to outmaneuver.
Would we have lost the 2008 GF if Egan never got injured?

He would have taken Franklin and that in turn would have caused a 'moving of the chains' right throughout our defensive line which would have allowed one of our smaller defenders like Wojak, Enright or Hunt to then play on those small Hawk forwards who would eventually turn the match.

Then again...as you said, we may not have picked up Harry and his role on Riewoldt in the 09 GF was awesome.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

You're letting a couple of nice goals in the GF and admittedly crucial cameos in a couple of H&A games cloud your judgement. No way was Varcoe better in 2011 than 2010.

I think your underestimating what you perceive to be a couple of nice goals.
In 2010 he suffered a broken thumb which did not impact his ability to train and obtain premium match fitness so it meant he came back in round 4 I believe and jumped right into it.
He was also able to play a great deal of games beside other small forwards like Byrnes, Ablett (more time forward in 2010) which meant he wasn't always a main focal point for opposition defenders and thus...he was able to get his hands on the pill far more often.

This year he had to go under the knife as it was a pretty bad shoulder injury so he was bed ridden for a good deal of time and was basically on the back foot in terms of fitness from there on.
He was right to go however by the start of the new year but you also have to realize that we didn't have the best of starts (injury wise).
Byrnes who booted 35 goals the year before was out, Ablett pissed off, Chapman had a set back and we had Varcoe & Stokes along with the prodigy Menzel to pick up the slack.

Varcoe wasn't fit and it showed in his form. Stokes was doing his role along with Menzel but Varcoe really needed a good month off before playing but he was able to rejuvenate half way through the year after doing a little more work than the other boys and his performances from then on were what we expected.
Watch some of his plays in the finals series and especially the GF and you'll see how many times he was involved in us scoring either it be the pressure he applied on the kicker or a tap of the footy to set up a player break away.

They weren't just a couple of nice goals in the GF, he had 21 disposals (10 contested, 3 one percenters) and booted 3 goals.

 

[vinum coupe]

You just argued against your original comment Bobby

I'm with Doris. No where near his 2010 form.

 

[GreggieMac]

When it comes to the rucks, I think Orren, West, Simpson, & Vardy are all fairly level...
None of them have played a bunch of games and each offer something a little bit different. Big O (experience/bulk), West & Vardy seem like better forwards and Simpson has got an extra inch or 2 of height...

I might put Vardy just in front - his best really stood out, but given his injury, this advantage won't hold up if doesn't play many games in 2012.

It seems like C.Scott likes to play two ruckman/forwards so it'll be a matter of which two stand up. Definitely "crunch" time in terms of sorting out what the future line up will be, but I'd say they'll all definitely be there in 2013

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I think your underestimating what you perceive to be a couple of nice goals.
In 2010 he suffered a broken thumb which did not impact his ability to train and obtain premium match fitness so it meant he came back in round 4 I believe and jumped right into it.
He was also able to play a great deal of games beside other small forwards like Byrnes, Ablett (more time forward in 2010) which meant he wasn't always a main focal point for opposition defenders and thus...he was able to get his hands on the pill far more often.

This year he had to go under the knife as it was a pretty bad shoulder injury so he was bed ridden for a good deal of time and was basically on the back foot in terms of fitness from there on.
He was right to go however by the start of the new year but you also have to realize that we didn't have the best of starts (injury wise).
Byrnes who booted 35 goals the year before was out, Ablett pissed off, Chapman had a set back and we had Varcoe & Stokes along with the prodigy Menzel to pick up the slack.

Varcoe wasn't fit and it showed in his form. Stokes was doing his role along with Menzel but Varcoe really needed a good month off before playing but he was able to rejuvenate half way through the year after doing a little more work than the other boys and his performances from then on were what we expected.
Watch some of his plays in the finals series and especially the GF and you'll see how many times he was involved in us scoring either it be the pressure he applied on the kicker or a tap of the footy to set up a player break away.

They weren't just a couple of nice goals in the GF, he had 21 disposals (10 contested, 3 one percenters) and booted 3 goals.

You just gave me a list of reasons why his form dropped. You are agreeing with me.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

You just gave me a list of reasons why his form dropped. You are agreeing with me.

it did drop though am not denying that but all I am saying is that his eventual form was better than it was in 2010 as his finals series showed. He did far more important things than he has ever done in his entire career and the gut running was the number 1 improver.

He was a crucial key to us winning the premiership by seasons end and he did all this while being fairly unfit for the 1st part of the year so imagine him with a full pre-season under his belt next year around.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

and you both (vinum) are forgetting that he played an entirely different role this year so of course his stats will look different than last year as he played mainly forward in 2010.

 

[vinum coupe]

That's better clarification. I agree his best was better than 2010. Overall though (as you say) he didn't have a better year.

I dont look at stats very often. I just go on what I see. i.e "there he is, what impact is going to have on this play" and I thought he was down on that.

I've written before that I think he was playing an unusual role of running through space. Not sure we all need to get this conversation going again or Patrick will turn up.

Hogan, Brown, J Hunt, Brynes, and Orrenson all have varying degrees of 'crunch time' issues (and all for different reasons) this year in my opinion.

It's not crunch time for TV unless we are asking 'can he become elite', if so then maybe.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

yep fair enough, same argument could probably be made for Hawkins as well. His 2010 was at least consistent whereas 2011 was low for most of the 1st half before the best was better than anything he has ever done before.

Still reckon Varcoe has so much upside in his game, it comes down to his shoulders and whether or not he'll finally get over the issues involving them.

If he has then we could see what he did in the GF on a regular basis and that is exceptional

 

[mac_cat]

and you both (vinum) are forgetting that he played an entirely different role this year so of course his stats will look different than last year as he played mainly forward in 2010.

Another reason we should be wary of comparing Varcoe's (or anyone else's) performance in 2011 compared to 2010 purely based on possessions, is that Chris Scott implemented a much lower possession-style game this year.

It says somewhere in the Scott Gullan book that they knew this would potentially impact on individual player honours, but the players were all willing to buy into the new game style anyway. While I'm not suggesting that this is the only explanation for Varcoe's decrease in stats this, if you look at the raw numbers of possessions for any player in '11 versus '10 it will probably be lower.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

When it comes to the rucks, I think Orren, West, Simpson, & Vardy are all fairly level...
None of them have played a bunch of games and each offer something a little bit different. Big O (experience/bulk), West & Vardy seem like better forwards and Simpson has got an extra inch or 2 of height...

I might put Vardy just in front - his best really stood out, but given his injury, this advantage won't hold up if doesn't play many games in 2012.

It seems like C.Scott likes to play two ruckman/forwards so it'll be a matter of which two stand up. Definitely "crunch" time in terms of sorting out what the future line up will be, but I'd say they'll all definitely be there in 2013

I think West is in front, given his last 8 or so games, which I agree with Ling was fantastic. Critically also if Vardy is to be a late starter as seems possible, and is to be conservatively managed, West is the only one of the other three with true positional versatility which with the sub rule etc pretty much means he's the first ruckman picked each week (excepting when they rotate the 'general' among the ruckmen of course).

Stephenson and Simpson are probably equal pegging at the moment although logic says that if both have an equally good pre season Orren will be the one that gets the nod early, they aren't going to want to have a 29 year old triple vfl premiership player sitting in the vfl come round 9 without the coaching staff having an idea of whether he's got it or not, so as Hocking said the other week, if his training form is good he'll play early, and from there it's up to him to keep the spot and keep Dawson out.

 

[GreggieMac]

I think West is in front, given his last 8 or so games, which I agree with Ling was fantastic. Critically also if Vardy is to be a late starter as seems possible, and is to be conservatively managed, West is the only one of the other three with true positional versatility which with the sub rule etc pretty much means he's the first ruckman picked each week (excepting when they rotate the 'general' among the ruckmen of course).

Stephenson and Simpson are probably equal pegging at the moment although logic says that if both have an equally good pre season Orren will be the one that gets the nod early, they aren't going to want to have a 29 year old triple vfl premiership player sitting in the vfl come round 9 without the coaching staff having an idea of whether he's got it or not, so as Hocking said the other week, if his training form is good he'll play early, and from there it's up to him to keep the spot and keep Dawson out.

West was great in the finals, but it's a shame Vardy never really got the chance... I loved his second efforts before he got injured.

Agree the big Oreo will get games early ahead of Simpson, but I think the real crunch time is going to come towards the middle/end of the season - by that point, you'd think all 3 of West, Orren and Simpson will have played multiple games and it'll be up to Vardy to show good enough form to break back into the team... really looking forward to watching 4 unique players vie for 2 spots...

 

[thejester]

Think it is crunch time for the 08 draft. Brown and Motlop need to show they can stay on the park for a full year and play some consistent football at VFL level. Gillies - is obviously rated internally a lot higher than he is on BF but needs to start showing progress again. Hunt's probably the exception, think he's done everything that has been asked of him and was just a victim of circumstance this year.

 

[Belisarius]

It maybe crunch time for Motlop as he has been at the club a while - not so sure about Brown - as he seems to have some pretty big raps on him and only injury is preventing him getting time in the AFL/VFL to show what he can do.

Gillies I assume is rated by the club but as he seems not to have done that much - so perhaps crunch time for him as well.

Simpson would need to show something next season as he has been at the club for quite a while - but as we are short on first ruckman maybe he is not so much under the pump.

The Big O - would need show something as well - as he is 29 so really needs to have good crack next season you would think.

Byrnes maybe under some pressure - perhaps the injury to Menzel may help him - but it is possible that he maybe over taken by others.

Everyone else in the senior team played well this season - so it seems, unless they decide their body is not up to it, could play another season or two (please Scarlett go on). No crunch time for them.

All the rest are quite young and need time - so do not see any of these facing crunch time soon.