Society/Culture Cultural appropriation

[FireKrakouer]

Although it would be a bit strange if you had a bunch of white blokes playing didgeridoos and doing indigenous dances before an AFL game, wouldn't it?

Why? It could be taken too far, perhaps, particularly if they were all white guys. But as far as I'm aware there are indigenous players on every team, and don't they wear indigenous themed guernseys for the dream time match?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Why? It could be taken too far, perhaps, particularly if they were all white guys. But as far as I'm aware there are indigenous players on every team, and don't they wear indigenous themed guernseys for the dream time match?

I'm not sure that's the same as white guys showing up in indigenous body paint, playing a didgeridoo and doing an indigenous dance. I guess the obvious objection would be that if you're going to have that, it should be indigenous folks doing it. White Australia hasn't exactly been very accommodating of our indigenous people over the years so this would look like bullshit lip service.

 

[Seeds]

Although it would be a bit strange if you had a bunch of white blokes playing didgeridoos and doing indigenous dances before an AFL game, wouldn't it?

No it wouldnt.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

No it wouldnt.

Well, if you're going to showcase indigenous culture, I'd suggest it would be more apt to have indigenous people doing it.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Well, if you're going to showcase indigenous culture, I'd suggest it would be more apt to have indigenous people doing it.

Why not a diverse group of people, including some indigenous individuals? Wasn't this the whole point of the haka rugby thing?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Why not a diverse group of people, including some indigenous individuals? Wasn't this the whole point of the haka rugby thing?

I guess my point is that NZ has done a better job of making their indigenous culture part of Kiwi identity generally.

 

[Sainteric]

I guess my point is that NZ has done a better job of making their indigenous culture part of Kiwi identity generally.

Their is a number of reasons for it firstly their is a lot more Maori v others in nz, secondly they fought the British to a standstill got a treaty and integrated earlier. The nz PM wore a Maori Cape when she met the queen recently.
We are a long way off that.

 

[tandino]

Maoris make up something like 15% of the population over there.

I would say by proportion of population, indigenous culture makes up a much smaller part of the broader Australian identity.

 

[owen87]

Maoris make up something like 15% of the population over there.

I would say by proportion of population, indigenous culture makes up a much smaller part of the broader Australian identity.

I do think we can be better at integrating Aboriginal history and culture in to society; but that also relies upon those people being willing and wanting to share that culture with 'modern' Australia.

I did like the idea of the new city train stations using Aboriginal names as part of the station name for example. But it quickly diverts in to a big political shitstorm about a myriad of other issues, so it never happens.

There's a big us-and-them sense of identity, whereas it seems in NZ there's much more national recognition and pride in the Maori history. I'm not sure how it would go down if Turnbull turned up to see the Queen with some traditional Aboriginal clothing on, or if our national rugby side did a war dance before the game.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Their is a number of reasons for it

No doubt. I didn't presume it occurred randomly.

 

[Scotland]

Any kind of Maori/Melanesian/Polynesian tatts on white people should be heavily frowned upon. It's insulting to good taste if nothing or no one else.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I do think we can be better at integrating Aboriginal history and culture in to society; but that also relies upon those people being willing and wanting to share that culture with 'modern' Australia.

I did like the idea of the new city train stations using Aboriginal names as part of the station name for example. But it quickly diverts in to a big political shitstorm about a myriad of other issues, so it never happens.

There's a big us-and-them sense of identity, whereas it seems in NZ there's much more national recognition and pride in the Maori history. I'm not sure how it would go down if Turnbull turned up to see the Queen with some traditional Aboriginal clothing on, or if our national rugby side did a war dance before the game.

I'm all for showcasing indigenous culture. But I'm a long way off saying: "I'm an Australian citizen, therefore indigenous culture is second nature to me." That just doesn't ring true to me. Because the indigenous experience is nothing like mine. Having a white bloke play a didgeridoo doesn't change that.

Setting aside my own awkwardness about that, isn't it essentially bullshit lip service? I mean, how about addressing the real shortcomings in indigenous health, education, criminal justice etc before trying to get all warm and fuzzy by having white Australians claim "we're all indigenous"? Surely that kind of feel-good messaging is a luxury that can wait until all the other s**t gets sorted out.

 

[owen87]

I'm all for showcasing indigenous culture. But I'm a long way off saying: "I'm an Australian citizen, therefore indigenous culture is second nature to me." That just doesn't ring true to me. Because the indigenous experience is nothing like mine. Having a white bloke play a didgeridoo doesn't change that.

Setting aside my own awkwardness about that, isn't it essentially bullshit lip service? I mean, how about addressing the real shortcomings in indigenous health, education, criminal justice etc before trying to get all warm and fuzzy by having white Australians claim "we're all indigenous"? Surely that kind of feel-good messaging is a luxury that can wait until all the other s**t gets sorted out.

I don't think most non-Maori New Zealanders would say "I'm Maori" though; it's not one extreme or the other.

We have a drastic split between cultures here, whereas in NZ it (appears) that there's much more recognition of both cultures existing in the country.

I have no reason not to be proud of the Aboriginal culture in this country, the history and the length of time it's existed are both extraordinary, but at the same time we have this huge gulf between cultures that we have to find a way to bridge.

It's about a white bloke playing a didgeridoo at all.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I don't think most non-Maori New Zealanders would say "I'm Maori" though; it's not one extreme or the other.

Who is talking about extremes?

That's just a weird platitude that doesn't refer to anything.

We have a drastic split between cultures here, whereas in NZ it (appears) that there's much more recognition of both cultures existing in the country.

Therefore, they're not directly analogous.

I have no reason not to be proud of the Aboriginal culture in this country, the history and the length of time it's existed are both extraordinary, but at the same time we have this huge gulf between cultures that we have to find a way to bridge.

But is indigenous culture your culture if you're not indigenous?

I'm an Australian citizen but I'm not indigenous. Therefore it would not be sincere or authentic for me to embrace indigenous culture as my own.

If we accept that there is a connection between experience and culture, then the difference between the experience of indigenous and non-indigenous Australians is simply too great.

And, frankly, any attempt to do so would strike me as bullshit lip service – a piece of feel-good messaging.

It's about a white bloke playing a didgeridoo at all.

It is if we're saying that indigenous culture is also the culture of white Australians.

 

[Seeds]

Well, if you're going to showcase indigenous culture, I'd suggest it would be more apt to have indigenous people doing it.

Only if we live in a racist world. I want to live in a non racist one.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Only if we live in a racist world. I want to live in a non racist one.

Is it racist for Australians to acknowledge that the indigenous experience has been different to the non-indigenous experience?

You might want to pretend there are no differences but that isn't the reality.

 

[Seeds]

Is it racist for Australians to acknowledge that the indigenous experience has been different to the non-indigenous experience?

You might want to pretend there are no differences but that isn't the reality.

Nope its not racist. But what has that got to do with putting on a didgeridoo performance and doing a dance?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Nope its not racist. But what has that got to do with putting on a didgeridoo performance and doing a dance?

There is a connection between culture and experience.

If the indigenous experience is distinct from the experience of non-indigenous Australian, is it right to subsume their culture?

What would be your reaction if white Australians started producing and selling indigenous art?

 

[owen87]

Who is talking about extremes?

That's just a weird platitude that doesn't refer to anything.

Therefore, they're not directly analogous.

But is indigenous culture your culture if you're not indigenous?

I'm an Australian citizen but I'm not indigenous. Therefore it would not be sincere or authentic for me to embrace indigenous culture as my own.

If we accept that there is a connection between experience and culture, then the difference between the experience of indigenous and non-indigenous Australians is simply too great.

And, frankly, any attempt to do so would strike me as bullshit lip service – a piece of feel-good messaging.

It is if we're saying that indigenous culture is also the culture of white Australians.

You're firmly adhering to the us-and-them mantra there.

Is this whole discussion not about how New Zealand has taken onboard Maori culture and history as being part of New Zealand culture and history?

Is Australian Indigenous culture not also a part of the greater Australian culture? This doesn't necessarily mean taking on or performing the rituals of another culture, but it also doesn't mean living forever as two distinct cultural groups either.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

You're firmly adhering to the us-and-them mantra there.

Do you speak exclusively in buzzwords and stock phrases?

I recognise that there is a difference between the indigenous experience and the non-indigenous experience. Is that an us-and-them mantra?

Is this whole discussion not about how New Zealand has taken onboard Maori culture and history as being part of New Zealand culture and history?

It's about many things. Yes, it's about how NZ have incorporated Maori culture into their national identity. But it's also about the differences that have made it harder and more problematic for Australia to do the same.

Is Australian Indigenous culture not also a part of the greater Australian culture?

Sure. That doesn't mean it's the place of non-indigenous Australians to claim personal ownership of it.

Should white Australians be free to produce and sell "indigenous art"?

If it's all "part of the greater Australian culture", what's the problem? It's just Australian art, rather than indigenous art. Right? Why should we insist on any distinction?

This doesn't necessarily mean taking on or performing the rituals of another culture, but it also doesn't mean living forever as two distinct cultural groups either.

So wait. Is it "all part of the greater Australian culture"? Or is "another culture"? If it's "another culture", is that an us-and-them mantra?

You've managed to say precisely nothing. As usual. You start off with the semblance of a position before backtracking into oblivion.

Should non-indigenous Australians take on and perform the rituals of indigenous culture or shouldn't they?

 

[owen87]

Do you speak exclusively in buzzwords and stock phrases?

I recognise that there is a difference between the indigenous experience and the non-indigenous experience. Is that an us-and-them mantra?

It's about many things. Yes, it's about how NZ have incorporated Maori culture into their national identity. But it's also about the differences that have made it harder and more problematic for Australia to do the same.

Sure. That doesn't mean it's the place of non-indigenous Australians to claim personal ownership of it.

Should white Australians be free to produce and sell "indigenous art"?

If it's all "part of the greater Australian culture", what's the problem? It's just Australian art, rather than indigenous art. Right? Why should we insist on any distinction?

So wait. Is it "all part of the greater Australian culture"? Or is "another culture"? If it's "another culture", is that an us-and-them mantra?

You've managed to say precisely nothing. As usual. You start off with the semblance of a position before backtracking into oblivion.

Should non-indigenous Australians take on and perform the rituals of indigenous culture or shouldn't they?

Same SJ as usual I see, quick to the personal criticism.

I believe we can do better at acknowledging Indigenous culture and history, and finding ways (like NZ have done) to make the Australian identity inclusive of both Indigenous and non-Indigenous.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Same SJ as usual I see, quick to the personal criticism.

My criticism was directed at your shitty argument.

And true to form, your impulse is to deflect from that: "Ooooh, he got personal."

I believe we can do better at acknowledging Indigenous culture and history, and finding ways (like NZ have done) to make the Australian identity inclusive of both Indigenous and non-Indigenous.

This is a nothing statement.

Why don't you address any of the problems I pointed out in your previous post?

Should white Australians be free to produce and sell "indigenous art"? If it's all "part of the greater Australian culture", what's the problem? It's just Australian art, rather than indigenous art. Right? Why should we insist on any distinction?

Is it "all part of the greater Australian culture"? Or is "another culture"? If it's "another culture", is that an us-and-them mantra?

Should non-indigenous Australians take on and perform the rituals of indigenous culture or shouldn't they?

Maybe try offering some substantive answers to some difficult questions instead of simply retreating back into foggy-minded, say-nothing oblivion.

 

[owen87]

My criticism was directed at your shitty argument.

And true to form, your impulse is to deflect from that: "Ooooh, he got personal."

This is a nothing statement.

Why don't you address any of the problems I pointed out in your previous post?

Should white Australians be free to produce and sell "indigenous art"? If it's all "part of the greater Australian culture", what's the problem? It's just Australian art, rather than indigenous art. Right? Why should we insist on any distinction?

Is it "all part of the greater Australian culture"? Or is "another culture"? If it's "another culture", is that an us-and-them mantra?

Should non-indigenous Australians take on and perform the rituals of indigenous culture or shouldn't they?

Maybe try offering some substantive answers to some difficult questions instead of simply retreating back into foggy-minded, say-nothing oblivion.

And true to form, you can't see the forest for the trees.

There's an entire spectrum that exists beyond indigenous art and rituals, you're just fixated on those.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

And true to form, you can't see the forest for the trees.

My word, as soon as you're asked to offer something specific, you just take your ball and go home.

Your default setting is to regurgitate platitudes that are too vague to be properly tested.

There's an entire spectrum that exists beyond indigenous art and rituals, you're just fixated on those.

Those are examples designed to coax you into actually saying something concrete for a change.

Should non-indigenous Australians take on and perform the rituals of indigenous culture or shouldn't they?

 

[owen87]

My word, as soon as you're asked to offer something specific, you just take your ball and go home.

Your default setting is to regurgitate platitudes that are too vague to be properly tested.

Those are examples designed to coax you into actually saying something concrete for a change.

Except you've made a complete leap away from the original post I've made, you're the one who decided;

I did like the idea of the new city train stations using Aboriginal names as part of the station name for example.

was somehow the same as

white Australians claim "we're all indigenous"