Cummins Overrated?

[PhatBoy]

Sadly I know a number of people who still agree with that and have twisted their narratives to suit. My favourite is a mate of mine who genuinely believes that Cummins only gets tailenders out and is a stat padding bowler who can bat a little.

FMD I am not certain but I have a feeling that his breakdown of batsmen dismissed would actually be the opposite

 

[The Casey Cat]

And no matter how much they continue to win, certain ignorant dipsh!t people (and hypocritical, disgracefully conflicted media companies) will only have stupid things to say about Pat and the team.

 

[kickazz]

Lol not to mention all time record crowds for a test series in Australia.

Aussies winning? Tick.
Profits being made? Tick.
Cheap tickets for the plebs on day 5 at the G? Tick

Some fat guy on pay tv crying in his cornflakes? Tick.

 

[big_e]

FMD I am not certain but I have a feeling that his breakdown of batsmen dismissed would actually be the opposite

Correct.

 

[Soggy2112]

And no matter how much they continue to win, certain ignorant dipsh!t people (and hypocritical, disgracefully conflicted media companies) will only have stupid things to say about Pat and the team.

I’d almost guarantee if we don’t win in Sri Lanka there will be stories written about how he shouldn’t have stayed home for the birth of his child.

 

[Coops93]

View attachment 2198575

Correct.

What's interesting about this is that Cummins more often than not has been the first change bowler as well. So dismissing the openers and no.3 as often as he has is very good.

 

[1990crow]

What's interesting about this is that Cummins more often than not has been the first change bowler as well. So dismissing the openers and no.3 as often as he has is very good.

Be interesting if he opens more when Starc/Hazlewood inevitably retire.

 

[ioppolo]

Be interesting if he opens more when Starc/Hazlewood inevitably retire.

Be crazy not to.

 

[the_interloper]

The thing with Cummins and his batting, and I think the same can be said of his bowling, is that he's not much of a "fill your boots" kind of player. When things are going his teams way he doesn't pile on with wickets and runs. He really lifts when the team needs him and takes the big wickets or the clutch runs.

If he comes in at 7 for 450 he's little chance to get runs. 7 for 120 and he'll dig in and get some important runs or even steer the team home. Same bowling, if it's 5-60 he might take 1 wicket while the other guys pile on the wickets. But if it's getting tight late or there's a big partnership then he's basically a lock to take the big wickets to break the game open. Happens time and again.

I'd love for him to get more cheap wickets/runs and pad out his stats a bit but you can't complain about a guy who performs his best when the team needs his best and when the team is performing well takes a back seat.

Makes for a good captain imo, let the boys fill the boots when the gettings good, but when it's tough you lead the pack and show the way.

I'm highlighting this because I have noticed that Cummins seems to bring himself on to clean up the tail a lot. I think I've only really noticed because he is the captain and bowling himself, if it was Smith captain it probably wouldn't have registered.

Now i'm not saying he's doing it because he wants cheap wickets, he probably thinks he's the best chance to get wickets most of the time, just wondering if anyone else has noticed?

Note I'm a big Cummins fan, great bowler, captain, puts value on his wicket and keeps adding to his captaincy resume.

 

[PhatBoy]

I'm highlighting this because I have noticed that Cummins seems to bring himself on to clean up the tail a lot. I think I've only really noticed because he is the captain and bowling himself, if it was Smith captain it probably wouldn't have registered.

Now i'm not saying he's doing it because he wants cheap wickets, he probably thinks he's the best chance to get wickets most of the time, just wondering if anyone else has noticed?

Note I'm a big Cummins fan, great bowler, captain, puts value on his wicket and keeps adding to his captaincy resume.

The figures disagree with you completely as someone noted earlier in the thread.

Despite not being a new ball bowler at any stage of his career beyond the odd occasion deputising for people, Cummins’ 5 most prolific ‘dismissed batting positions’ from the opposition are, in no particular order, batsmen 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

He’s removed batsmen 10 and 11 combined, as many times as he’s removed batsman ‘1’ - 31 in total.


He has 86 wickets of batsmen 8-11.

He has 136 wickets of batsmen 1-4.

I don’t think there is any question you could raise about him bowling to the tail beyond the tactics used when he does so.

 

[the_interloper]

The figures disagree with you completely as someone noted earlier in the thread.

Despite not being a new ball bowler at any stage of his career beyond the odd occasion deputising for people, Cummins’ 5 most prolific ‘dismissed batting positions’ from the opposition are, in no particular order, batsmen 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

He’s removed batsmen 10 and 11 combined, as many times as he’s removed batsman ‘1’ - 31 in total.


He has 86 wickets of batsmen 8-11.

He has 136 wickets of batsmen 1-4.

I don’t think there is any question you could raise about him bowling to the tail beyond the tactics used when he does so.

I had no stats to back me up on this I must admit, thanks for posting this.

Like I said I've probably only thought about it because he's calling the bowling changes. I've asked a few mates about it and they had noticed it as well, I'll have to tell them the stats ha ha

 

[PhatBoy]

I had no stats to back me up on this I must admit, thanks for posting this.

Like I said I've probably only thought about it because he's calling the bowling changes. I've asked a few mates about it and they had noticed it as well, I'll have to tell them the stats ha ha

He’s probably a bit predictable in his captaincy at times with the tail in that if they even look like putting a stand together he just goes back to tried and true ‘let’s blast them out’ so that means himself. Starc and Hazelwood so it might give that impression that he’s getting some cheap ones but he’s definitely not doing it very well

 

[Coops93]

I'm highlighting this because I have noticed that Cummins seems to bring himself on to clean up the tail a lot. I think I've only really noticed because he is the captain and bowling himself, if it was Smith captain it probably wouldn't have registered.

Now i'm not saying he's doing it because he wants cheap wickets, he probably thinks he's the best chance to get wickets most of the time, just wondering if anyone else has noticed?

Note I'm a big Cummins fan, great bowler, captain, puts value on his wicket and keeps adding to his captaincy resume.

I've seen this has already been answered, but this narrative seems to have popped up lately for some reason. I guess some are trying to find any reason knock him down as every other critique of his captaincy has been shown to be nonsense.

He's actually not great at cleaning up the tail fwiw, his average goes up slightly against them. I think it's because most of his wickets are caught behind and not bowled/LBW which is the dismissal that gets most tail enders. His line/length is effective against good batters because they nick off to them, but tail enders just miss or leave more.

This was posted above on this page, wickets by batters position in the order:

 

[Coops93]

He’s probably a bit predictable in his captaincy at times with the tail in that if they even look like putting a stand together he just goes back to tried and true ‘let’s blast them out’ so that means himself. Starc and Hazelwood so it might give that impression that he’s getting some cheap ones but he’s definitely not doing it very well

Of the bowlers in our team he's the go to for the bouncer method. Starc has an ok bouncer but he's a farcry from Mitchell Johnson. Hazelwood bowls a good surprise bouncer but not in a spell of short stuff. Cummins is the only one with the ability to attack consistently with them.

It's odd though because as above he doesn't get as many wickets against the tail, attacking the stumps is what works but we go to bouncer theory for some reason. Starc used to be elite and cleaning up the tail but hasn't done that for a while.

 

[Sphynx]

I think he's probably regressed slightly in his bowling from 2-3 years ago.

I think he's lost a yard slightly, despite the data maybe not supporting that.

He's getting amazing results still, but I don't think he's the best bowler in the world like he was about 2-3 years ago.

He's however maturing as a player. His batting is what it always should have been. Which is weird, because when I think when he was bowling best, a few years ago, he was batting like a genuine #11.

 

[the_interloper]

I've seen this has already been answered, but this narrative seems to have popped up lately for some reason. I guess some are trying to find any reason knock him down as every other critique of his captaincy has been shown to be nonsense.

He's actually not great at cleaning up the tail fwiw, his average goes up slightly against them. I think it's because most of his wickets are caught behind and not bowled/LBW which is the dismissal that gets most tail enders. His line/length is effective against good batters because they nick off to them, but tail enders just miss or leave more.

This was posted above on this page, wickets by batters position in the order:
View attachment 2199600

Precisely why I posted in this thread about it, I knew the Bigfooty nerds would be able to quantify things, thanks. And like I said earlier re the bolded I'm a big Cummins fan, just something I'd noticed, I'm not trying to cut him down at all.

 

[the_interloper]

I think he's probably regressed slightly in his bowling from 2-3 years ago.

I think he's lost a yard slightly, despite the data maybe not supporting that.

He's getting amazing results still, but I don't think he's the best bowler in the world like he was about 2-3 years ago.

He's however maturing as a player. His batting is what it always should have been. Which is weird, because when I think when he was bowling best, a few years ago, he was batting like a genuine #11.

I feel like if Cummins drops to 130 he'll still be a great bowler, pace helps but he has a few tricks in his bag that's for sure.

And yes I'd forgotten how shit he was with the stick for years, he's a genuine test 8 these days, you're pretty much expected to bat like a batsman there in the modern era.

 

[Coops93]

Precisely why I posted in this thread about it, I knew the Bigfooty nerds would be able to quantify things, thanks. And like I said earlier re the bolded I'm a big Cummins fan, just something I'd noticed, I'm not trying to cut him down at all.

I wasn't trying to lump you in with it, that was a broad commentary on something I noticed. I saw your post saying you'll have to share the stats with friends so I didn't think you were trying to be negative.

 

[big_e]

These are his dismissals when captain:

The number of 9th batters being dismissed is interesting, so here are those dismissals:



I think this backs up the theory that he gets to a point where he says, "give me the ball, I'll just do it myself."

 

[Soggy2112]

I'm highlighting this because I have noticed that Cummins seems to bring himself on to clean up the tail a lot. I think I've only really noticed because he is the captain and bowling himself, if it was Smith captain it probably wouldn't have registered.

Now i'm not saying he's doing it because he wants cheap wickets, he probably thinks he's the best chance to get wickets most of the time, just wondering if anyone else has noticed?

Note I'm a big Cummins fan, great bowler, captain, puts value on his wicket and keeps adding to his captaincy resume.

I’ve certainly noticed this, however I think it’s more due to the fact that we generally attack the tail with short pitched bowling and he’s our best exponent of that.

As an example, in Adelaide when the ball was swinging in the first innings and the plan was Yorkers he went to Starc. In Melbourne, the plan to the tail was catchers in close both sides of the wicket to challenge both edges, and he went to Boland and Lyon as the better exponents of that.

 

[glengowan]

Always have been a fan and his captaincy has only elevated my opinion of him. I think he’s well supported by McDonald and Bailey. Australia have nailed their leadership choices.

Times will get tougher as senior players retire. In a couple of years there are 4 Tests at home vs NZ with 5 Tests vs India in India straight after.

His ability to allow his players to play their own way and instill confidence in them appears his greatest strength. Travis Head the best example. Konstas’ cameos another.

Importantly, he is still our best bowler. That hasn’t dropped off. He leads from the front, but there is more to his leadership than just that.

 

[Richard Pryor]

I'm highlighting this because I have noticed that Cummins seems to bring himself on to clean up the tail a lot. I think I've only really noticed because he is the captain and bowling himself, if it was Smith captain it probably wouldn't have registered.

Now i'm not saying he's doing it because he wants cheap wickets, he probably thinks he's the best chance to get wickets most of the time, just wondering if anyone else has noticed?

Note I'm a big Cummins fan, great bowler, captain, puts value on his wicket and keeps adding to his captaincy resume.

I remember under Lehman's coaching starc picked up the tactic of relentlessly bowling bouncers at the tail which doesn't take wickets.

 

[the_interloper]

I remember under Lehman's coaching starc picked up the tactic of relentlessly bowling bouncers at the tail which doesn't take wickets.

I don't mind the odd bouncer but a good simple plan to the tail is to bowl fast at the stumps, should work eventually.

 

[Coops93]

I've never really subscribed to the bouncer theory for the tail. Attacking the stumps is statistically the way they get out most.

I don't mind it if maybe they're digging in for a bit or wagging a bit, sure bouncer theory for a bit to unsettle them, but it seems like as soon as no.8 comes in the stumps don't exist anymore and it's time for bouncers.

 

[Soggy2112]

I've never really subscribed to the bouncer theory for the tail. Attacking the stumps is statistically the way they get out most.

I don't mind it if maybe they're digging in for a bit or wagging a bit, sure bouncer theory for a bit to unsettle them, but it seems like as soon as no.8 comes in the stumps don't exist anymore and it's time for bouncers.

It depends on the tailender and the conditions I think.

Yes, you’re correct, if the ball is moving and you can challenge both sides of the bat then just bowling at the stumps is the way to go.

However, if the ball is not moving, the majority of tailenders are now good enough to defend those balls. Very few however, have genuinely good technique at facing the short ball. They either fend at it and bring catchers in to play, or swing wildly, and usually get away with one or two and are then caught either on the fence or having the ball go straight up. Where I think we got it wrong, was in England where the grounds are smaller. A player like Mark Wood had a lot of success with the bat, and a lot of his sixes landed just over the rope where a fielder was.

If you look at guys like Starc and Broad, they have a pretty sound front foot defence and are clean ball strikers. If the ball is not moving and you’re bowling a good length they’ll be able to score a quick 30-40 relatively comfortably. Both players showed that in the early parts of their career, however, once teams figured out that their back foot technique was very shaky their runs were reduced significantly.

I do also think there is merit, particularly in a long series, to making batting really uncomfortable for the tail. For some reason we don’t talk about it a lot at the elite level, even though all of us who play the game have felt it when I guy is a bit too quick for us, short bowling is scary. It ****s with your footwork and it makes it near impossible to play the ball on its merits. If you’re a 10-11 and you’ve been bumped in the first two innings, dunno how likely I am to get in behind it for the rest of the series. Whether or not that’s something the game should allow, I’m not so sure, but it’s definitely effective.