Curnow and Ginnivan.

[beerbandit]

Does anyone actually have the statistics on how many high frees Ginnivan drew? I don’t think it would be as many as Kozzie Pickett and or Cody Weightman

3

Cody Weightman

Age

24

Ht

179cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.5

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.0

4star

D

6.5

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

6.5

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.0

4star

.

The black and white stripes are very polarising to a few.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

be great if you could find it. otherwise sounds a bit like the usual Ginnivan bullshit that people dream up.

The 2nd one

 

[naysayer]

fair enough. felt the same way about Puopolo? thought not.

Getting low and dropping the shoulder? Certainly.

Diving and exaggerating contact? No

 

[beerbandit]

The 2nd one

Any stats Walsh on how many frees he was actually paid for high contact last year?

Would be interesting to see the comparison to other small forwards, Pickett and Weightman stand out as the obvious 2 others.

Ginnivan has certainly cleaned he’s actually up this year as he doesn’t play for the contact anymore, I reckon he might of been paid 1 to 2 frees this season for over the shoulder, but to the OPs point, he’s probably had at least 6 or more blatant ones missed where he has deserved the free.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Any stats Walsh on how many frees he was actually paid for high contact last year?

Would be interesting to see the comparison to other small forwards, Pickett and Weightman stand out as the obvious 2 others.

Ginnivan has certainly cleaned he’s actually up this year as he doesn’t play for the contact anymore, I reckon he might of been paid 1 to 2 frees this season for over the shoulder, but to the OPs point, he’s probably had at least 6 or more blatant ones missed where he has deserved the free.

I wouldn't have a clue mate, but I'm consistent with all duckers in terms of my hatred. Fisher, Weightman, Selwood, Shuey. Ginnivan, Mclean, Hunter... the list goes on.

To me its a simple fix - Excessive exaggeration, give them a 3 week break and nobody would do it again, there'd be meltdowns amongst fans but it's for the good of the game. Biggest reason I hate Soccer too where it's almost celebrated with kents like Neymar who should have 3 or 4 logies stitched up by now.

 

[beerbandit]

I wouldn't have a clue mate, but I'm consistent with all duckers in terms of my hatred. Fisher, Weightman, Selwood, Shuey. Ginnivan, Mclean, Hunter... the list goes on.

To me its a simple fix - Excessive exaggeration, give them a 3 week break and nobody would do it again, there'd be meltdowns amongst fans but it's for the good of the game. Biggest reason I hate Soccer too where it's almost celebrated with kents like Neymar who should have 3 or 4 logies stitched up by now.

It’s definitely media driven.

Forwards have been milking free kicks for 100 years.

 

[naysayer]

I wouldn't have a clue mate, but I'm consistent with all duckers in terms of my hatred. Fisher, Weightman, Selwood, Shuey. Ginnivan, Mclean, Hunter... the list goes on.

To me its a simple fix - Excessive exaggeration, give them a 3 week break and nobody would do it again, there'd be meltdowns amongst fans but it's for the good of the game. Biggest reason I hate Soccer too where it's almost celebrated with kents like Neymar who should have 3 or 4 logies stitched up by now.

I don't put ducking and diving in the same basket.

I agree with you though about soccer. I'm a big fan, but the diving and rolling around is almost unbearable. I don't know why the league hangs the umps out to dry when we could very easily hand out big fines and game bans for unsportsmanlike behaviour. Players are just sucking in the umpires, and the video replay makes it obvious. You take a blatant dive to get a free kick, I'm happy to see that get a week off.

It works 50% of the time, and as Jack Riewoldt himself said: 50/50 is good odds for a forward. Have to punish it when it's clear cut.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I don't put ducking and diving in the same basket.

I agree with you though about soccer. I'm a big fan, but the diving and rolling around is almost unbearable. I don't know why the league hangs the umps out to dry when we could very easily hand out big fines and game bans for unsportsmanlike behaviour. Players are just sucking in the umpires, and the video replay makes it obvious. You take a blatant dive to get a free kick, I'm happy to see that get a week off.

It works 50% of the time, and as Jack Riewoldt himself said: 50/50 is good odds for a forward. Have to punish it when it's clear cut.

Agreed. Theres ducks that are like... meh it got paid it was crap but not totally over the top... and then theres crap like Weightman the other week. Give him a match ban and he'll probably never attempt anything similar again. I just don't like it, feel like its insulting to the viewers and to the umps who have a tough enough time as it is.

Either way Ginnivan pissed me off with his antics last year and I'm frankly happy to never see him get paid a free again regardless of being deserving or not. I know I'm a bit hardcore with it all though so I wouldn't expect that to be the general consensus on it.

 

[citizen-erased]

Does anyone actually have the statistics on how many high frees Ginnivan drew? I don’t think it would be as many as Kozzie Pickett and or Cody Weightman.

The black and white stripes are very polarising to a few.

General frees; don't think anyone tracks high frees
6 in 5 in 2021
32 in 23 last year

Weightman 21 in 21 last year
Kozi 13 in 23

Lad isn't losing out. He's just lost benefit of the doubt in a lot of cases

Those stripes aren't that polarising either - Darcy Cameron had most frees last year

 

[beerbandit]

General frees; don't think anyone tracks high frees
6 in 5 in 2021
32 in 23 last year

Weightman 21 in 21 last year
Kozi 13 in 23

Lad isn't losing out. He's just lost benefit of the doubt in a lot of cases

Those stripes aren't that polarising either - Darcy Cameron had most frees last year

32 frees. Probably assume 15-20 for high contact.

Joel Selwood had over 70 frees in a season 3 times through out his career. Which I assume probably 25-30 were for high contact.

Yet Ginnivan in his second season had the rules changed in regards to how to manipulate the high contact.

Black and stripes can be polarising.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Thread has answered my question. Ginnivan gets treated very differently than others who do exactly the same thing and many try defend that as perfectly legit. The most pathetic aspect is the lengths they'll go to to defend their irrational bias.

 

[naysayer]

Thread has answered my question. Ginnivan gets treated very differently than others who do exactly the same thing and many try defend that as perfectly legit. The most pathetic aspect is the lengths they'll go to to defend their irrational bias.

Ginnivan has done it more than any other player, that's why he's being treated differently. I don't know why you're looking for somebody else to blame, you make your bed and then you lie in it.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Ginnivan has done it more than any other player, that's why he's being treated differently. I don't know why you're looking for somebody else to blame, you make your bed and then you lie in it.

at the time the pile on started he'd played about 20 games so more than anyone else is crap. Selwood?

 

[HairyO]

32 frees. Probably assume 15-20 for high contact.

Joel Selwood had over 70 frees in a season 3 times through out his career. Which I assume probably 25-30 were for high contact.

Yet Ginnivan in his second season had the rules changed in regards to how to manipulate the high contact.

Black and stripes can be polarising.

Selwood was a far higher number for high free kicks. More than half each game.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Selwood was a far higher number for high free kicks. More than half each game.

the pass given to Selwood for the same behaviour as a rookie was smashed for is the whole point.

 

[HairyO]

the pass given to Selwood for the same behaviour as a rookie was smashed for is the whole point.

Pass by umpires maybe, not by any viewers. But also, if one player gets dodgy treatment shouldnt we stop that treatment rather than be okay with broadening it to all players?

 

[beerbandit]

Pass by umpires maybe, not by any viewers. But also, if one player gets dodgy treatment shouldnt we stop that treatment rather than be okay with broadening it to all players?

I’m happy that they cracked down on the ducking, and raising of the arm.

The only issue with it now is the umpires don’t know how to umpire Ginnivan anymore, he’s been put in the too hard basket as they are afraid of the backlash one way or the other.

He’s legit had he’s head ripped off a few times this season with the old “I couldn’t see it from where I was standing” piss weak response from the umpire

Players have stopped doing the action, let’s now just reward the free kick when it’s there.

Charlie Curnow gets a free kick if he’s opposing player looks at him funny.

 

[HairyO]

I’m happy that they cracked down on the ducking, and raising of the arm.

The only issue with it now is the umpires don’t know how to umpire Ginnivan anymore, he’s been put in the too hard basket as they are afraid of the backlash one way or the other.

He’s legit had he’s head ripped off a few times this season with the old “I couldn’t see it from where I was standing” piss weak response from the umpire

Players have stopped doing the action, let’s now just reward the free kick when it’s there.

Charlie Curnow gets a free kick if he’s opposing player looks at him funny.

Ginnivan also still plays for free kicks and stops and waits for the umpire. So he isnt helping himself either.

As for Charlie Curnow yes, he gets ridiculously soft free kicks.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Ginnivan also still plays for free kicks and stops and waits for the umpire. So he isnt helping himself either.

As for Charlie Curnow yes, he gets ridiculously soft free kicks.

there's literally no evidence of that but you've clearly will never budge no matter what he does. Ginnivan now doesn't get paid a high free when the tackler comes from behind. He obviously has a 6th sense of when to duck.

 

[naysayer]

at the time the pile on started he'd played about 20 games so more than anyone else is crap. Selwood?

The pile on is quite a seperate discussion, isn't it? I thought we were talking about free-kicks not being paid. 24 free kicks from those 20 games, so it was already relevant. Pies success and close wins amplified the scrutiny.

He's lost the benefit of the doubt from the umpires because he played for so many free kicks. Not that hard to understand, and it's nothing new. Happened to Lindsay Thomas, I'm glad Sicily moved to defense because he use to drop the knees something dreadful. Selwood is the one who got away with it for a decade - don't ask me how, maybe because he did it in the middle of the ground.

At the end of the day we're talking about players gaining an unfair advantage, and although the media scrutiny and booing was over the top for Ginnivan, it's better that he gets it out of his game.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

"Pies success and close wins amplified the scrutiny."

WTF!!! this is a new layer. What has this got to do with Ginnivan getting or not getting frees? Was he the highest recipient of frees in the comp? No. So who ever was - Was his team "under scrutiny for their success?" Come on!

 

[conrad_437]

Selwood got away with it for so long partially because he was a top 5 player in the league for portions of his career, but also because he was a little more subtle with his approach. Slightly dropped the knees and rolled the shoulder less overtly, which kept some degree of ambiguity over whether he was attempting to evade the tackler, or attempting to draw a high free kick. It's an effective tactic of evading a would-be tackler, especially when the tackle isn't laid strongly, and doesn't require much strength from the ball-handler. Selwood knew this and certainly took advantage of it, and I think the added bonus of a potential free kick made it a mainstay in his game.

The issue Ginnivan and others have run into, is that their intent became so clear (entering a contest with the sole intention to win a high free kick), that unfortunately their reputation is now being used against them. Sure, they may not be the highest recipients of free kicks in the competitions, but the individual examples of high tackles with accentuated contact was a source of extreme frustration for fans and various stakeholders.

It is quite clear now that Ginnivan is being umpired different from others though. Yes he is somewhat to blame, but it's a bad look for the game if a kid is getting his head taken off with no free kick.

On another note, I wish our forwards got the treatment that Curnow gets. It feels like every 50/50 contest he'll win anyway because of some BS chopping the arms

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Selwood got away with it for so long partially because he was a top 5 player in the league for portions of his career, but also because he was a little more subtle with his approach. Slightly dropped the knees and rolled the shoulder less overtly, which kept some degree of ambiguity over whether he was attempting to evade the tackler, or attempting to draw a high free kick. It's an effective tactic of evading a would-be tackler, especially when the tackle isn't laid strongly, and doesn't require much strength from the ball-handler. Selwood knew this and certainly took advantage of it, and I think the added bonus of a potential free kick made it a mainstay in his game.

The issue Ginnivan and others have run into, is that their intent became so clear (entering a contest with the sole intention to win a high free kick), that unfortunately their reputation is now being used against them. Sure, they may not be the highest recipients of free kicks in the competitions, but the individual examples of high tackles with accentuated contact was a source of extreme frustration for fans and various stakeholders.

It is quite clear now that Ginnivan is being umpired different from others though. Yes he is somewhat to blame, but it's a bad look for the game if a kid is getting his head taken off with no free kick.

On another note, I wish our forwards got the treatment that Curnow gets. It feels like every 50/50 contest he'll win anyway because of some BS chopping the arms

Very good balanced summary. Hard to argue with that.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Meanwhile Charlie Curnow

30

Charlie Curnow

Age

28

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

9.7

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

5.3

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.3

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.4

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.8

4star

averages 1.2 free kicks for per game.

Charlie Dixon

22

Charlie Dixon

Age

34

Ht

200cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.7

3star

K

6.9

3star

HB

4.7

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.6

5star

D

10.5

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.5

2star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.5

2star

G

2.5

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

was the one I saw compared ... 1.4 frees per game.

Perception isn't always reality as an AFL fan.

Also not denying that Fisher ducked but he got 2 frees on the night and has 4 for the year.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Meanwhile Charlie Curnow averages 1.2 free kicks for per game.

Charlie Dixon was the one I saw compared ... 1.4 frees per game.

Perception isn't always reality as an AFL fan.

Also not denying that Fisher ducked but he got 2 frees on the night and has 4 for the year.

must have been the six or so against us that confused me.