Current Best XI Combined Aust/NZ side

[Gethelred]

Warne basically had two deliveries in back half of his career; leg spinner & slidder (which is leg break with seam in different position). Warne was able to execute plans, counter or simply bluff batsmen by changing line & length (through overspin & hold ball back for underspin). All those tools available to Lyon - doesn't need a mystery ball.

I know what a slider is, I've taught people to bowl one.

You're minimizing the difference between Warne's stock ball, his toppie, and that slider; he would use his toppie after a ripping leggie to get them thinking back foot, so that when the slider came through dead straight from a round arm they're rocking back to play something they think is back a length and going to kick only to find it shooting low and either rapping them on the pad, getting an inside edge from a cut shot, or going straight through.

You need, at the very least, two deliveries; a ball that turns, and one that doesn't. If you're a bounce bowler - as Lyon is and Kumble was - you need either a very generous captain or a toothless attack around you to allow you to bowl for the amounts of time it's going to take for you to get wickets, or you're going to need to have a delivery that doesn't bounce as much, like a flipper or a backspinner.

I think it's interesting that you use one of the best bowlers ever with 3 variations he used until the end of his career and 5 variations overall, who had tremendous control over his stock delivery to the point where it encompassed an awful lot of variety by itself, to demonstrate that variations are overrated.

 

[PhatBoy]

If a bowler has a better strike rate than Anil Kumble would you say they've found it bloody hard to take wickets?

I’m not arguing that Lyon doesn’t have variety. I actually think he’s quite canny. I’m just refuting the statement that variety is overrated

 

[Gethelred]

Especially for an off spinner.
Leg spinners can get away with it to some extent of they’re exceptionally accurate - Kumble the obvious one, almost exclusively bowled top spinners and wrong uns but his height an accuracy made him tough to face, and Warne probably could have just bowled leg breaks and still been successful such was his accuracy and spin - but for an off spinner to not at least have a couple of change ups, it makes it bloody hard to take wickets

I really think Kumble is flattered a bit by the fact that the other bowlers in the lineup were genuinely not as good as he was, so they just left him on when searching for a wicket instead of going to another wicket taking option.

I genuinely think that bounce based spinners (Kumble, Lyon, Sulieman Benn, Vettori) while they can be dangerous to play due to their bounce are generally less effective unless bowled for longer, because there's a smaller margin for error with them to hit the stumps. They have to bowl it fuller to do so, which invites the bat to dance or to sweep, which invites better strokeplay, and as bats have gotten better they've found that fuller length to be undesireable. Plus, a captain has plenty of time for a bowler who can get through an over in 3 minutes and goes for 1 an over; they're getting told to avoid the adventurous lengths and stick with back a length watchful 'Waiting.... No!' deliveries for most of the day, and wondering why they're not getting anywhere.

You compare those blokes to someone like Herath or Swann, who were shorter and both had low shooting arm balls that they only bowled when they got the bat thinking 'yep, this one's going to absolutely rip, best get my front leg across to cover it!'.

If you're a bounce spinner, you need to have a ball that does that - round arm delivery that shoots low, or a genuine arm ball that skids - or you need the rest of the attack to be a little toothless sometimes so that your captain has no choice but to let you bowl defensively for 15 overs on the trot and see if they can force a mistake.

 

[PhatBoy]

I really think Kumble is flattered a bit by the fact that the other bowlers in the lineup were genuinely not as good as he was, so they just left him on when searching for a wicket instead of going to another wicket taking option.

I genuinely think that bounce based spinners (Kumble, Lyon, Sulieman Benn, Vettori) while they can be dangerous to play due to their bounce are generally less effective unless bowled for longer, because there's a smaller margin for error with them to hit the stumps. They have to bowl it fuller to do so, which invites the bat to dance or to sweep, which invites better strokeplay, and as bats have gotten better they've found that fuller length to be undesireable. Plus, a captain has plenty of time for a bowler who can get through an over in 3 minutes and goes for 1 an over; they're getting told to avoid the adventurous lengths and stick with back a length watchful 'Waiting.... No!' deliveries for most of the day, and wondering why they're not getting anywhere.

You compare those blokes to someone like Herath or Swann, who were shorter and both had low shooting arm balls that they only bowled when they got the bat thinking 'yep, this one's going to absolutely rip, best get my front leg across to cover it!'.

If you're a bounce spinner, you need to have a ball that does that - round arm delivery that shoots low, or a genuine arm ball that skids - or you need the rest of the attack to be a little toothless sometimes so that your captain has no choice but to let you bowl defensively for 15 overs on the trot and see if they can force a mistake.

I totally agree. I maybe didn’t make it clear but I wasn’t saying Kumble was a freak or anything, he was a bowler who was unerringly accurate and had to be patient for his wickets because he wasn’t going to rip one out of the rough or shoot through a flipper or something.

 

[Pippen94]

I know what a slider is, I've taught people to bowl one.

You're minimizing the difference between Warne's stock ball, his toppie, and that slider; he would use his toppie after a ripping leggie to get them thinking back foot, so that when the slider came through dead straight from a round arm they're rocking back to play something they think is back a length and going to kick only to find it shooting low and either rapping them on the pad, getting an inside edge from a cut shot, or going straight through.

You need, at the very least, two deliveries; a ball that turns, and one that doesn't. If you're a bounce bowler - as Lyon is and Kumble was - you need either a very generous captain or a toothless attack around you to allow you to bowl for the amounts of time it's going to take for you to get wickets, or you're going to need to have a delivery that doesn't bounce as much, like a flipper or a backspinner.

I think it's interesting that you use one of the best bowlers ever with 3 variations he used until the end of his career and 5 variations overall, who had tremendous control over his stock delivery to the point where it encompassed an awful lot of variety by itself, to demonstrate that variations are overrated.

Warne stopped using the big top spinner at some stage in his career & simply imparted topspin to legbreak instead. All of his top spinners almost always turned from leg. You going to consider his flatter deliveries as separate as well?! He admitted to just holding ball back.

It's clear what I was implying; don't need any special variation as spinners can work around stock delivery. Ashwin bowled well in Australia last year but did the carrom ball really do anything?!

Problem Lyon faced last season was wickets got better as match went on which is pretty much the opposite of what has happened in history of test cricket.

His overall record blows your argument out anyway

 

[Pippen94]

I totally agree. I maybe didn’t make it clear but I wasn’t saying Kumble was a freak or anything, he was a bowler who was unerringly accurate and had to be patient for his wickets because he wasn’t going to rip one out of the rough or shoot through a flipper or something.

Pretty certain on his last two tours of Australia tossed ball up & bowled with more flight & spin.
In Indian conditions with slow spin bowled faster & was deadly

 

[PhatBoy]

Pretty certain on his last two tours of Australia tossed ball up & bowled with more flight & spin.
In Indian conditions with slow spin bowled faster & was deadly

On his second last tour here he did bowl well but I think from memory he got through a LOT of overs so that accuracy probably played a part. I do remember seeing him actually bowl some leg breaks though that turned at least a little bit

 

[Pippen94]

I really think Kumble is flattered a bit by the fact that the other bowlers in the lineup were genuinely not as good as he was, so they just left him on when searching for a wicket instead of going to another wicket taking option.

I genuinely think that bounce based spinners (Kumble, Lyon, Sulieman Benn, Vettori) while they can be dangerous to play due to their bounce are generally less effective unless bowled for longer, because there's a smaller margin for error with them to hit the stumps. They have to bowl it fuller to do so, which invites the bat to dance or to sweep, which invites better strokeplay, and as bats have gotten better they've found that fuller length to be undesireable. Plus, a captain has plenty of time for a bowler who can get through an over in 3 minutes and goes for 1 an over; they're getting told to avoid the adventurous lengths and stick with back a length watchful 'Waiting.... No!' deliveries for most of the day, and wondering why they're not getting anywhere.

You compare those blokes to someone like Herath or Swann, who were shorter and both had low shooting arm balls that they only bowled when they got the bat thinking 'yep, this one's going to absolutely rip, best get my front leg across to cover it!'.

If you're a bounce spinner, you need to have a ball that does that - round arm delivery that shoots low, or a genuine arm ball that skids - or you need the rest of the attack to be a little toothless sometimes so that your captain has no choice but to let you bowl defensively for 15 overs on the trot and see if they can force a mistake.

No you don't. You can bowl wider & force batsman to cut against bounce or spin. Also toss ball higher inviting drive to try to bowl through gate. In both instances quicker flatter delivery or side spinner can be used for variety.

 

[Gethelred]

Warne stopped using the big top spinner at some stage in his career & simply imparted topspin to legbreak instead. All of his top spinners almost always turned from leg. You going to consider his flatter deliveries as separate as well?! He admitted to just holding ball back.

Sorry, you clearly don't know much about Warne or legspin if you're going to start trying to say his toppie wasn't a topspinner.

The point of bowling a toppie is to get it to kick more or move faster off the pitch. If you really make it hum, you can get the thing almost to curl down just before impact, making it seem to drop on you to bounce that slightest bit shorter than it should.

You're clearly misunderstanding what I'm saying, anyway. I count his flatter balls as part of his stock delivery, but his stock delivery features more variety than most other bowlers entire repertoire. That's not to say that there isn't a clear distinction between his toppie and his leggie, which he bowled at different times in different ways to get wickets or to produce specific shots.

It's clear what I was implying; don't need any special variation as spinners can work around stock delivery. Ashwin bowled well in Australia last year but did the carrom ball really do anything?!

Um, yes, yes it did. He picked up two wickets in the first test with it.

Problem Lyon faced last season was wickets got better as match went on which is pretty much the opposite of what has happened in history of test cricket.

Problem Lyon faced last year was that he was still bowling with his altered sidepsin wrist position, which is different from how he usually bowls in Australia, and sidespinners get carted here. India are also the best players of spin in the world.

His overall record blows your argument out anyway

Who's record? Warnes'? Warne more or less demonstrates my 'argument', and Lyon does too in that when he's not bowling well it's because he's not varying what he's doing.

When he's bowling well, he'll go around and then over, his pace will be up and down, he'll bowl his Geoff (which goes straighter than his turning offie does) and he'll get through his action a bit more, which causes the movement he gets off the deck either up or sideway to be quicker and more dramatic.

The Geoff's more of a toppie than a carrom ball, anyway.

 

[Gethelred]

No you don't. You can bowl wider & force batsman to cut against bounce or spin. Also toss ball higher inviting drive to try to bowl through gate. In both instances quicker flatter delivery or side spinner can be used for variety.

Dude, what the * are you even replying to? That's a long post you've just kind of rejected.

In any case, you bowl fuller you're trying to provoke the drive or get them coming forward. If you're a taller bowler, your best asset is your bounce and an awful lot of coaches and captains want you to bowl flatter and faster to pin the bat deep in the crease and force the wrong shot against a back a length ball to a stacked leg side field. Thus, a lot of bounce spinners don't learn to bowl fuller, and develop along different lines to shorter sidespinners, and so they need longer and to use relentless accuracy and minute variation within a stock delivery to try and starve a bat of opportunities to score and to trap them in a poor shot.

 

[Pippen94]

Sorry, you clearly don't know much about Warne or legspin if you're going to start trying to say his toppie wasn't a topspinner.

The point of bowling a toppie is to get it to kick more or move faster off the pitch. If you really make it hum, you can get the thing almost to curl down just before impact, making it seem to drop on you to bounce that slightest bit shorter than it should.

You're clearly misunderstanding what I'm saying, anyway. I count his flatter balls as part of his stock delivery, but his stock delivery features more variety than most other bowlers entire repertoire. That's not to say that there isn't a clear distinction between his toppie and his leggie, which he bowled at different times in different ways to get wickets or to produce specific shots.

Um, yes, yes it did. He picked up two wickets in the first test with it.


Problem Lyon faced last year was that he was still bowling with his altered sidepsin wrist position, which is different from how he usually bowls in Australia, and sidespinners get carted here. India are also the best players of spin in the world.


Who's record? Warnes'? Warne more or less demonstrates my 'argument', and Lyon does too in that when he's not bowling well it's because he's not varying what he's doing.

When he's bowling well, he'll go around and then over, his pace will be up and down, he'll bowl his Geoff (which goes straighter than his turning offie does) and he'll get through his action a bit more, which causes the movement he gets off the deck either up or sideway to be quicker and more dramatic.

The Geoff's more of a toppie than a carrom ball, anyway.

You're a pleasure to chat with - must be a great coach not.

Everything I've said about spin is correct. Warne's variations in second half of his career were built around his leg break & that includes the slider. He rediscovered the flipper in final ashes series but really didn't bowl that or big topspinner & his wrong in was pretty rubbish.

Top spinners or ball with overspin drop short which is Lyon's m.o. while we at it. When you release ball deep in the hand the trajectory is flatter & ball lands full. You can call this a zooter but * me if it's just a leg spinner held back a bit. Warne bowled this to catch sweeping batsmen on the pads but many times to start spell to prevent from batter getting under ball.

Lyon had the Gary which hasn't gone anywhere & his off break which his prolific record has been built on. Tell me again after 500 wickets that you need an armball or doosra or carrom ball or treesra

 

[Pippen94]

Dude, what the fu** are you even replying to? That's a long post you've just kind of rejected.

In any case, you bowl fuller you're trying to provoke the drive or get them coming forward. If you're a taller bowler, your best asset is your bounce and an awful lot of coaches and captains want you to bowl flatter and faster to pin the bat deep in the crease and force the wrong shot against a back a length ball to a stacked leg side field. Thus, a lot of bounce spinners don't learn to bowl fuller, and develop along different lines to shorter sidespinners, and so they need longer and to use relentless accuracy and minute variation within a stock delivery to try and starve a bat of opportunities to score and to trap them in a poor shot.

Lyon doesn't dart ball but bowls up with overspin which causes delivery to dip. Catches batsman between driving & playing back - therein lies effectiveness of stock ball.
You're describing somebody like Derek underwood who was different altogether

 

[Gethelred]

You're a pleasure to chat with - must be a great coach not.

Everything I've said about spin is correct. Warne's variations in second half of his career were built around his leg break & that includes the slider. He rediscovered the flipper in final ashes series but really didn't bowl that or big topspinner & his wrong in was pretty rubbish.

Top spinners or ball with overspin drop short which is Lyon's m.o. while we at it. When you release ball deep in the hand the trajectory is flatter & ball lands full. You can call this a zooter but fu** me if it's just a leg spinner held back a bit. Warne bowled this to catch sweeping batsmen on the pads but many times to start spell to prevent from batter getting under ball.

Lyon had the Gary which hasn't gone anywhere & his off break which his prolific record has been built on. Tell me again after 500 wickets that you need an armball or doosra or carrom ball or treesra

For the last time...

Kumble had a wrong un and a leg break (which more closely resembled a traditional toppie, but that was his stock ball) and even he wound up taking over 600 test wickets, but the reason he was able to do so was because the only other bowler that could take wickets off him for most of his career was Harbhajan, and even then he went at a strike rate in the mid 60's despite bowling in the friendliest to spin conditions in the entire world. He had to work harder to take wickets because he lacked a delivery which threatened both the outside edge of the bat and the stumps, and when you don't do that you're going to be able to keep a bowler like that out.

You underrate the impact of variety altogether, and you are point blank ignoring the bits of my posts that demonstrate that you are wrong.

Have fun being a fool, for however long you choose to remain one.

 

[Gethelred]

Lyon doesn't dart ball but bowls up with overspin which causes delivery to dip. Catches batsman between driving & playing back - therein lies effectiveness of stock ball.
You're describing somebody like Derek underwood who was different altogether

Where have I even said that Lyon bowls darts?

No wonder you're a rude *er if you're arguing with things I haven't even said.

 

[Pippen94]

Where have I even said that Lyon bowls darts?

No wonder you're a rude f***er if you're arguing with things I haven't even said.

I'm not going to waste my time with you because you're being hostile for no reason.

I never even mentioned Kumble in my posts to you & would certainly never said he didn't have variety because I know for fact he bowled two different types of wrong UN's.

Variation is important but you can achieve that through flight & line. Nathan Lyon with almost 500 wickets & no armball pretty blows whatever you're saying out of the water. Keep having a meltdown over it tho

 

[Gethelred]

I'm not going to waste my time with you because you're being hostile for no reason.

Ahem.

You're a pleasure to chat with - must be a great coach not.

I never even mentioned Kumble in my posts to you & would certainly never said he didn't have variety because I know for fact he bowled two different types of wrong UN's.

And I did, because I wasn't just talking about side-spin in terms of variety but a lack of spin. You weren't reading the posts around the ones you chose to disagree with, and you barely read the posts you quoted anyway.

Variation is important but you can achieve that through flight & line. Nathan Lyon with almost 500 wickets & no armball pretty blows whatever you're saying out of the water.

Nathan Lyon changes his angle nigh constantly, and has his Geoff ball which doesn't turn and bounces more. He has plenty of variation, and he demonstrates what I'm saying about bounce spinners because his strike rate is 64.37; he needs to bowl nearly eleven overs to get a wicket.

Keep saying what you're saying, though. If you repeat something enough, it must be true.

Keep having a meltdown over it tho

What happened to this?

I'm not going to waste my time with you because you're being hostile for no reason.

 

[Seedsfan]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring & suggest that out of the current crop Watling, Williamson, Taylor & Boult are all locks for NZ's ATG team.

Latham not too far away, but not sure if he dislodges former openers such as Sutcliffe & Turner.

Southee & Wagner (as well as Jamieson in a few years) are also knocking on the door, but can't see any reason to pick them ahead of Hadlee, Bond or even Jack Cowie just yet.

NZ ATG XI

Glenn Turner
Bert Sutcliffe
Kane Williamson*
Martin Crowe
Ross Taylor
John Reid
BJ Watling+
Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Trent Boult
Shane Bond
12th: Chris Cairns

Baz

178 dismissals from 95 innings at 1.9 per innings

87 innings, 5 not outs, 2803 runs at 34.2 with 5 100s and 15 50s



BJ

265 dismissals from 127 innings 2.1 per innings

101 innings, 14 not outs, 3398 runs at 39 with 7 hundreds and 18 50s



While BJ slightly shades Baz on the stat sheet Baz had that intangible his leadership was amazing. He also played his years as a keeper in a far weaker NZ side and this has to be taken into account as when he played they weren’t regularly taking 20 wickets and posting big scores



Also Baz despite the stats was a better batsman and that’s why he gave the gloves in part to a back injury but also as he would be able to get picked as a specialist batsmen. Watling started his career as a specialist batsman and struggled there getting dropped