Current Best XI Combined Aust/NZ side

[corbies]

Numbers are never the be all and end all. I care more about what I see. He I picking before most other pace bowlers in world, when he is available. He impresses me when I seen him more than some other guys that had better run with their bodies. I like guys like Southee, He a good bowler. Just like what I see from Pattinson more and intimidates more. Was dumb to leave him on sidelines last summer and keep playing out of form Starc. Cost us a few Teats imo.

Surely what you see isn't the be all and end all either given how much cricket you would miss?

 

[corbies]

Starc has never been the same since the sandpaper scandal, which is telling imo.

Also Starc in the 2 calendar years post sandpaper (2019 & 2020) 54 wickets @ 20.5.

Starc's career to sandpaper 182 wickets @ 28.17.
Starc's career post sandpaper 73 wickets @ 26.06.

 

[Maybe Tomorrow]

Also Starc in the 2 calendar years post sandpaper (2019 & 2020) 54 wickets @ 20.5.

Starc's career to sandpaper 182 wickets @ 28.17.
Starc's career post sandpaper 73 wickets @ 26.06.

That's interesting stats. Maybe it's cause he was so poor last season it's given me that impression.

Him and Hazlewood did seem to drop off a lot after the cheating scandal.

 

[corbies]

That's interesting stats. Maybe it's cause he was so poor last season it's given me that impression.

Him and Hazlewood did seem to drop off a lot after the cheating scandal.

Hazlewood was actually horrible during the sandpaper series where he took 12 wickets @ 39.25 but has been immense since. 61 wickets @ 22.6. 51 of those coming against the other top 4 nations (Ind, Eng, NZ) @ 22.8.

 

[corbies]

Ripped em in the last Ashes 20 @ 22.. only played the four matches after recovering from injury. Revenge for the boy from Tamworth after his unfortunate first trip to England ended in him being dropped for the final Test.

Starc had a shocker in the one that counts.. India 11 @ 41- '20/21. Was a passenger in three of his four matches.. carried by Cummins and Hazle.

I'd love to know why India in Australia is the one that counts but NZ in Australia is not the one that counts. He took 9/97 in the 1st test against a batting line-up that contained 6 of the top 7 that would go on to be World Test Champions. Knocked over each of those 6 in either the 1st or 2nd innings too.

Anyway the original point was that Starc has been s**t since sandpaper with the allusion being he was only good because of ball tampering which doesn't seem to be the case. He's always had poor figures v India.

 

[BGman]

Give me Patto every time over Southee and Starc

Me too. No similarity between the two. Patto adds mongrel to an attack with his passion and in your face type of seam bowling, while Southee is a more laid back and very accomplished specialist swing bowler. Southee is best suited to his own NZ and English conditions while Patto thrives on seaming grassy decks. I'd also have both Kiwis over Starc.. as they add pressure while Starc relieves it.

 

[footyfan1978]

Surely what you see isn't the be all and end all either given how much cricket you would miss?

I do not judge players that I never seen play.
The ones I see I do. Pattinson one of the best of the ones I seen in this generation of bowlers. If he is playing I back him as more likely to take wickets than most others bowlers we been playing. Also, if I was playing a combined Kiwi and Aussie side I am personally would never pick Southee ahead of him unless Patto is injured. I'd pick Patto ahead of Starc too. Only time I picking Starc is when he genuinely in form and got total control back of his swing and line. He too much of a liability when he off his game. It nuts they keep picking him even after a few Tests in a row of s**t bowling.

 

[BronCrow]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring & suggest that out of the current crop Watling, Williamson, Taylor & Boult are all locks for NZ's ATG team.

Latham not too far away, but not sure if he dislodges former openers such as Sutcliffe & Turner.

Southee & Wagner (as well as Jamieson in a few years) are also knocking on the door, but can't see any reason to pick them ahead of Hadlee, Bond or even Jack Cowie just yet.

NZ ATG XI

Glenn Turner
Bert Sutcliffe
Kane Williamson*
Martin Crowe
Ross Taylor
John Reid
BJ Watling+
Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Trent Boult
Shane Bond
12th: Chris Cairns

Good side, though would probably have Cairns in the first XI. Would find room for McCallum as as well, probably over Taylor. Any consideration for Nathan Astle, Jacob Oram or Craig McMillan?

 

[jle101]

Good side, though would probably have Cairns in the first XI. Would find room for McCallum as as well, probably over Taylor. Any consideration for Nathan Astle, Jacob Oram or Craig McMillan?

Definitely considered Astle at one point. Am a big fan of McMillan & Oram, loved watching them tear it up during the 2000's, I reckon I could find a spot for McMillan in their 2nd XI.

Here's NZ A...

Glenn Turner (Latham gets bumped up the first XI)
Nathan Astle
Stephen Fleming*
Martin Donnelly
Craig McMillan
Brendon McCullum+
Chris Cairns (or John Reid if as Cairnsy should be in the 1st XI)
Tim Southee
Neil Wagner
Jack Cowie
Stephen Boock

And NZ's 3rd XI...

Stewie Dempster
John Wright
Mark Richardson
Andrew Jones
Jeremy Coney*
Jacob Oram
Bruce Taylor
Ian Smith+ (maybe Adam Parore)
Dick Motz
Jack Alabaster
Chris Martin

 

[corbies]

Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Trent Boult
Shane Bond

That attack wud put pressure on any batting lineup to have played the game.
How about this attack?

Lillee
McGrath
Thomson
Warne.

Would Jeff Thomson be in the best 20 bowlers to have played for Australia?

 

[Pippen94]

Definitely considered Astle at one point. Am a big fan of McMillan & Oram, loved watching them tear it up during the 2000's, I reckon I could find a spot for McMillan in their 2nd XI.

Here's NZ A...

Glenn Turner (Latham gets bumped up the first XI)
Nathan Astle
Stephen Fleming*
Martin Donnelly
Craig McMillan
Brendon McCullum+
Chris Cairns (or John Reid if as Cairnsy should be in the 1st XI)
Tim Southee
Neil Wagner
Jack Cowie
Stephen Boock

And NZ's 3rd XI...

Stewie Dempster
John Wright
Mark Richardson
Andrew Jones
Jeremy Coney*
Jacob Oram
Bruce Taylor
Ian Smith+ (maybe Adam Parore)
Dick Motz
Jack Alabaster
Chris Martin

John Bracewell hard done by

 

[jle101]

John Bracewell hard done by

Yeah, was hard to leave Bracewell out. If anyone was to sub him in for either of the spinners I picked ahead of him I wouldn't argue too much. Was taking a long, hard look at selecting Dipak Patel as well.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah, was hard to leave Bracewell out. If anyone was to sub him in for either of the spinners I picked ahead of him I wouldn't argue too much. Was taking a long, hard look at selecting Dipak Patel as well.

Their spin history has really been very underwhelming hasn’t it.

vettori was a good cricketer. A smart bowler, reliable, rarely bowled garbage. But he wasn’t world class in terms of a comparison to anyone from the Asian teams as well as Warne and Macgill. Inferior to Swann as well.

his full value as a player was not in doubt - he turned himself into probably the best tailender that’s ever existed (yes I know he was a true all rounder by the time he retired but he started as a genuine tailender and just got better and better) and he was a calming influence in a side that was prone to panic at times.

so if you exclude him and his overall value to the side, their spin cupboard has been just awful for as long as I’ve been alive.

 

[KiwiRoo]

I do not judge players that I never seen play.
The ones I see I do. Pattinson one of the best of the ones I seen in this generation of bowlers. If he is playing I back him as more likely to take wickets than most others bowlers we been playing. Also, if I was playing a combined Kiwi and Aussie side I am personally would never pick Southee ahead of him unless Patto is injured. I'd pick Patto ahead of Starc too. Only time I picking Starc is when he genuinely in form and got total control back of his swing and line. He too much of a liability when he off his game. It nuts they keep picking him even after a few Tests in a row of sh*t bowling.

Pattinsons a fine bowler, but Southee's last couple of years have been very very good too. I think Pattinson needs a longer run at the top level to be considered.
Starc with his physical attributes should be top of the test list. Left arm, 150k and swings it. Got everything apart from a cricketing brain. I'd pick Pattinson ahead of him too

 

[footyfan1978]

Would Jeff Thomson be in the best 20 bowlers to have played for Australia?

I doubt it. I saw him after his shoulder injury where he was nowhere near as quick as he must have been in mid to late 70's. His action that made him so much quicker than any other bowler we've seen also has limitations in terms of what you can do with the bowl in terms of other tricks. He did not have the skill of a Lillee that I saw or a Hadlee but he had that slingshot action and so it must have been crazy quick before the shoulder was done but he never going to swing it like a Hadlee or Lillee could. When Lillee lost his pace he was just as good because what he lost in raw pace he made up with all his other skills he kept adding to. Could swing it anyway he wanted and cut the ball of the pitch both ways too. Thommo as he was fearsome would have horrible to face as a batter but when I started watching most of his days he probably only bowling 145 to 150 km/h which so he was not quicker than most bowlers so batsmen in early 80's could cope and do not remember him being anywhere near as good as Lillee then.

 

[jle101]

It's crazy how Thommo's action didn't allow for much swing. From experience, when bowling, I've found twisting your body a slight bit when at the popping crease, so your chest sticks out at a 90 degree angle kind of like Thommo's used to, was really helpful when it came to getting some outswing.

In modern times we've seen Lasith Malinga bowl with pretty much the same action & generate some demonic late inswing.

 

[KiwiRoo]

It's crazy how Thommo's action didn't allow for much swing. From experience, when bowling, I've found twisting your body a slight bit when at the popping crease, so your chest sticks out at a 90 degree angle kind of like Thommo's used to, was really helpful when it came to getting some outswing.

In modern times we've seen Lasith Malinga bowl with pretty much the same action & generate some demonic late inswing.

not sure he was renowned for the fuller swinging length !

 

[footyfan1978]

Daniel Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Trent Boult
Shane Bond

That attack wud put pressure on any batting lineup to have played the game.
How about this attack?

Lillee
McGrath
Thomson
Warne.

Lillee
Lindwall
Miller
Grimmett
Warne
with Greg Chappell to bowl his medium pacers when required.

 

[footyfan1978]

It's crazy how Thommo's action didn't allow for much swing. From experience, when bowling, I've found twisting your body a slight bit when at the popping crease, so your chest sticks out at a 90 degree angle kind of like Thommo's used to, was really helpful when it came to getting some outswing.

In modern times we've seen Lasith Malinga bowl with pretty much the same action & generate some demonic late inswing.

I do not think Malinga had same action as Thommo. More like Shaun Tait.
Thommo is different again. He virtually ripped his arm back like a javelin throw and rotate his arm purely over his shoulder as pivot point.
Guys like Malinga and Tait had a slinging action but they not really rotating over the shoulder like Thommo did. They more sideways in comparison which I believe helps you swing it more.
As Clive Lloyd said, Thommo just had a crazy strong upper body and I doubt anyone else could do the same action and not completely break down if they tried to keep doing it. I remember as a kid, trying the action a few times and I think it gives you more pace and can be very accurate, but harder to swing it.

 

[Scratchy05]

1. Conway (going early)
2. Warner
3. Labuschagne
4. Smith
5. Williamson
6. Nicolls
7. Latham (Decided to use him as keeper)
8. Cummins
9. Jamieson
10. Hazlewood
11. Wagner

6 New Zealanders and only 5 Aussies. Not a great look.

 

[Mikevk123]

1. Tom Latham New Zealand
2. David Warner Australia
3. Marnus Laubschange Australia
4. Kane Williamson New Zealand
5. Steve Smith Australia
6. Henry Nicholls New Zealand
7. BJ Watling New Zealand
8. Pat Cummins Australia
9. Tim Southee New Zealand
10. Nathan Lyon Australia
11. Josh Hazlewood Australia

 

[Gethelred]

I'm not an expert on spin but Lyon bowls up to get his trademark overspin. I think it's very hard to get ball to go on with arm with that action. Somebody like Herath had a great arm ball because its natural to release from side spinner's action. In any case I think variations are overrated

Wut?

His problem is that all of his deliveries get that bounce. He's an overspin bowler; sure, he got worked with and taught sidespin for our last tour of India (which is why his form dropped off afterwards, it required a complete rejigging of the placement of his wrist and side spinning offies get carted in Australia) but he's still predominantly a bounce offie rather than a sharp turner of the ball.

He needed to work with his coach and conjure up either a backspinner bowled with a roundarm action - akin to a flipper; an orthodox back spinner looks enough like an offie to have worked - or a sidespinning delivery that dips late designed to attack the stumps; that way, with his default balls, he can hone in on the stumps from outside off and threaten the outside edge.

That's why variations are vital. If all you have is a stock ball, anyone can work you out because your options for taking wickets are limited. Being able to change your approach and to attack over and around whilst threatening both the outside edge and the stumps is vital for a spinner.

 

[PhatBoy]

Wut?

His problem is that all of his deliveries get that bounce. He's an overspin bowler; sure, he got worked with and taught sidespin for our last tour of India (which is why his form dropped off afterwards, it required a complete rejigging of the placement of his wrist and side spinning offies get carted in Australia) but he's still predominantly a bounce offie rather than a sharp turner of the ball.

He needed to work with his coach and conjure up either a backspinner bowled with a roundarm action - akin to a flipper; an orthodox back spinner looks enough like an offie to have worked - or a sidespinning delivery that dips late designed to attack the stumps; that way, with his default balls, he can hone in on the stumps from outside off and threaten the outside edge.

That's why variations are vital. If all you have is a stock ball, anyone can work you out because your options for taking wickets are limited. Being able to change your approach and to attack over and around whilst threatening both the outside edge and the stumps is vital for a spinner.

Especially for an off spinner.
Leg spinners can get away with it to some extent of they’re exceptionally accurate - Kumble the obvious one, almost exclusively bowled top spinners and wrong uns but his height an accuracy made him tough to face, and Warne probably could have just bowled leg breaks and still been successful such was his accuracy and spin - but for an off spinner to not at least have a couple of change ups, it makes it bloody hard to take wickets

 

[Pippen94]

Wut?

His problem is that all of his deliveries get that bounce. He's an overspin bowler; sure, he got worked with and taught sidespin for our last tour of India (which is why his form dropped off afterwards, it required a complete rejigging of the placement of his wrist and side spinning offies get carted in Australia) but he's still predominantly a bounce offie rather than a sharp turner of the ball.

He needed to work with his coach and conjure up either a backspinner bowled with a roundarm action - akin to a flipper; an orthodox back spinner looks enough like an offie to have worked - or a sidespinning delivery that dips late designed to attack the stumps; that way, with his default balls, he can hone in on the stumps from outside off and threaten the outside edge.

That's why variations are vital. If all you have is a stock ball, anyone can work you out because your options for taking wickets are limited. Being able to change your approach and to attack over and around whilst threatening both the outside edge and the stumps is vital for a spinner.

Warne basically had two deliveries in back half of his career; leg spinner & slidder (which is leg break with seam in different position). Warne was able to execute plans, counter or simply bluff batsmen by changing line & length (through overspin & hold ball back for underspin). All those tools available to Lyon - doesn't need a mystery ball.

 

[corbies]

Especially for an off spinner.
Leg spinners can get away with it to some extent of they’re exceptionally accurate - Kumble the obvious one, almost exclusively bowled top spinners and wrong uns but his height an accuracy made him tough to face, and Warne probably could have just bowled leg breaks and still been successful such was his accuracy and spin - but for an off spinner to not at least have a couple of change ups, it makes it bloody hard to take wickets

If a bowler has a better strike rate than Anil Kumble would you say they've found it bloody hard to take wickets?