List Mgmt. Cutting the list to 35 players

[adammania9]

How will the AFL look with smaller list sizes?

The AFL is set to change in many ways because of the coronavirus pandemic, including the increasing likelihood of smaller playing lists in 2021

www.afl.com.au

THE AFL seems increasingly likely to order the slashing of playing lists, with 35 firming as the ideal number.

Smaller list sizes were a talking point before the coronavirus cash crisis, as AFL.com.au revealed in early February, but there is now double the motivation.

What do we know so far?
AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan confirmed in mid-March there would be only 17 rounds this season rather than 23, with the likelihood of games every four to six days to fit them in.

The fewer matches means there is already far less money in the pool.

What we also know is the AFL has asked the 18 clubs to cut its soft cap expenditure from $9.7 million to $8.7 million this year, and again to $6.7 million by the start of 2021.

The players and umpires have accepted new pay terms for this year, while most other staff were stood down and even made redundant in some cases.

How many players are on AFL lists now?
Teams have between 38 and 40 footballers on their 'primary' list, and either four, five or six Category A rookies for a maximum combination of 44.

There is also the option, on top of those restrictions, to have three Category B rookies, who can play AFL football only when a primary or Category A teammate is placed on the inactive or long-term injury lists.

Rookie-list wages do not count in clubs' salary cap and are instead included in the soft cap.

For example, Geelong has 40 players on its primary list, four Category A rookies and two Category B rookies this year.

I recommend reading the rest of the article for interest's sake.

It's not to my liking but it seems all but certain that lists will only have 35 permanent players on it next year. I presume clubs will have rights to sign state league players who will receive match payments if they're called up to senior level but all that is yet to be determined.

Collingwood's 2020 senior list:
Primary list: 38
Category A rookie list: 6 (John Noble, Lynden Dunn, Tim Broomhead, Flynn Appleby, Brody Mihocek, Anton Tohill)
Category B rookie list: 3 (Mark Keane, Tom Wilson, Jack Madgen)
Total: 44 + 3 Cat B rookies

Now I'm just guessing here, but I think Category B rookies will be exempt from the cap of 35 players, or else a series of international players and cross-sport athletes' careers will be over and they'll go back to where they came from. It would be very short sighted for the AFL to have clubs cut them all at once.

I think the primary goal of cutting the lists is to remove the rookie list from the AFL, plus a couple extra. I think the rule will be 35 + a top of 3 category b rookies whose salaries are exempt from the cap.

For that purpose, I think Wilson and Keane still have futures at the club (which is good). Madgen is in his third season as a Cat B rookie however, so if the current rules remain in place, he'll need to be promoted to the senior list in 2021 to stay, as Cat B rookies are allowed three years on the list.

Also this is all under the presumption that there will be no 2019 drafts and therefore no list additions, the next drafts not to occur until at least sometime next year.

Out of contract in 2020:
The first few to be looked at. They'll cost nothing the least to move on at the end of the year:

AFL Out of Contract Players in 2023

List of AFL players coming out of contract at the end of 2023.

www.footywire.com

Anton Tohill (Cat A rookie)
Atu Bosenavulagi
Ben Reid
Brody Mihocek (Cat A rookie)
Darcy Moore
Flynn Appleby (Cat A rookie)
Jack Madgen (Cat B rookie - in third year)
Jordan De Goey
Jordan Roughead
Josh Daicos
Levi Greenwood
Lynden Dunn (Cat A rookie)
Mark Keane (Cat B Rookie - expect to be exempt)
Mason Cox
Matthew Scharenberg
Max Lynch
Rupert Wills
Tim Broomhead (Cat A Rookie)
Travis Varcoe

Not OOC in 2020 but may still be at risk:
Brayden Sier (2021) - questions on professionalism and work rate. May be more deserving players for his spot?
Darcy Cameron (2021) - only just joined, but presumably on low wage. Would be expected to stay but not totally immune.
Josh Thomas (2021) - rated highly by Buckley, but not a massively important player. Could command interest elsewhere.
Dayne Beams (2022) - all but certainly on his way out. The sooner he's done with, the better for everybody.
Tom Langdon (2021) - has all year to prove himself right but if my list management time his knee is still cooked, we may have to cut him loose in favour of players who can play.

Safe:
Everybody else I expect, either due to ability, loyalty or recent re-signing.



TASK: Cut 9 players from our senior list and rookie list.

My nine:
11 - Dayne Beams. For the benefit of both club and player. He's the #1 who has to go.
12 - Matthew Scharenberg. Love him dearly, looked to have Clement potential a couple years ago, but it's clear that the coaches prefer others. Think he'll certainly be cut.
15 - Lynden Dunn. Warrior. Deserved to play finals. But the football Gods hate us. Thank you for your service, Lynden.
18 - Travis Varcoe. Thought he was lucky to get a deal last year. Offers too little on field nowadays plus he's injury prone. Thank you for your service Varcs.
20 - Ben Reid. Like Varcoe, very lucky to have gotten a deal. Can't run out more than 3 games in a row anymore. Time to let him go.
29 - Tim Broomhead. Surely this time he's let go of. Super stiff with repeat injuries but we can't keep carrying these players.
31 - Flynn Appleby. Looked very solid early on but becomes a victim of circumstance here. Not sure he has the athletic profile or ability to ever break into our back line permanently.
40 - Atu Bosenavulagi. Unlucky after only one season but he won't be the only stiff one. Would love to keep him but I think others have shown more potential.
45 - Max Lynch. Has been with us for a while and still hasn't come close to playing at AFL level. Reckon there's more deserving players of his spot.

 

[35Daicos]

How will the AFL look with smaller list sizes?

The AFL is set to change in many ways because of the coronavirus pandemic, including the increasing likelihood of smaller playing lists in 2021

www.afl.com.au

I recommend reading the rest of the article for interest's sake.

It's not to my liking but it seems all but certain that lists will only have 35 permanent players on it next year. I presume clubs will have rights to sign state league players who will receive match payments if they're called up to senior level but all that is yet to be determined.

Collingwood's 2020 senior list:
Primary list: 38
Category A rookie list: 6 (John Noble, Lynden Dunn, Tim Broomhead, Flynn Appleby, Brody Mihocek, Anton Tohill)
Category B rookie list: 3 (Mark Keane, Tom Wilson, Jack Madgen)
Total: 44 + 3 Cat B rookies

Now I'm just guessing here, but I think Category B rookies will be exempt from the cap of 35 players, or else a series of international players and cross-sport athletes' careers will be over and they'll go back to where they came from. It would be very short sighted for the AFL to have clubs cut them all at once.

I think the primary goal of cutting the lists is to remove the rookie list from the AFL, plus a couple extra. I think the rule will be 35 + a top of 3 category b rookies whose salaries are exempt from the cap.

For that purpose, I think Wilson and Keane still have futures at the club (which is good). Madgen is in his third season as a Cat B rookie however, so if the current rules remain in place, he'll need to be promoted to the senior list in 2021 to stay, as Cat B rookies are allowed three years on the list.

Also this is all under the presumption that there will be no 2019 drafts and therefore no list additions, the next drafts not to occur until at least sometime next year.

Out of contract in 2020:
The first few to be looked at. They'll cost nothing the least to move on at the end of the year:

AFL Out of Contract Players in 2023

List of AFL players coming out of contract at the end of 2023.

www.footywire.com

Anton Tohill (Cat A rookie)
Atu Bosenavulagi
Ben Reid
Brody Mihocek (Cat A rookie)
Darcy Moore
Flynn Appleby (Cat A rookie)
Jack Madgen (Cat B rookie - in third year)
Jordan De Goey
Jordan Roughead
Josh Daicos
Levi Greenwood
Lynden Dunn (Cat A rookie)
Mark Keane (Cat B Rookie - expect to be exempt)
Mason Cox
Matthew Scharenberg
Max Lynch
Rupert Wills
Tim Broomhead (Cat A Rookie)
Travis Varcoe

Not OOC in 2020 but may still be at risk:
Brayden Sier (2021) - questions on professionalism and work rate. May be more deserving players for his spot?
Darcy Cameron (2021) - only just joined, but presumably on low wage. Would be expected to stay but not totally immune.
Josh Thomas (2021) - rated highly by Buckley, but not a massively important player. Could command interest elsewhere.
Dayne Beams (2022) - all but certainly on his way out. The sooner he's done with, the better for everybody.
Tom Langdon (2021) - has all year to prove himself right but if my list management time his knee is still cooked, we may have to cut him loose in favour of players who can play.

Safe:
Everybody else I expect, either due to ability, loyalty or recent re-signing.



TASK: Cut 9 players from our senior list and rookie list.

My nine:
11 - Dayne Beams. For the benefit of both club and player. He's the #1 who has to go.
12 - Matthew Scharenberg. Love him dearly, looked to have Clement potential a couple years ago, but it's clear that the coaches prefer others. Think he'll certainly be cut.
15 - Lynden Dunn. Warrior. Deserved to play finals. But the football Gods hate us. Thank you for your service, Lynden.
18 - Travis Varcoe. Thought he was lucky to get a deal last year. Offers too little on field nowadays plus he's injury prone. Thank you for your service Varcs.
20 - Ben Reid. Like Varcoe, very lucky to have gotten a deal. Can't run out more than 3 games in a row anymore. Time to let him go.
29 - Tim Broomhead. Surely this time he's let go of. Super stiff with repeat injuries but we can't keep carrying these players.
31 - Flynn Appleby. Looked very solid early on but becomes a victim of circumstance here. Not sure he has the athletic profile or ability to ever break into our back line permanently.
40 - Atu Bosenavulagi. Unlucky after only one season but he won't be the only stiff one. Would love to keep him but I think others have shown more potential.
45 - Max Lynch. Has been with us for a while and still hasn't come close to playing at AFL level. Reckon there's more deserving players of his spot.

Keane is Cat. A, Tohill is Cat. B, BTW.

 

[adammania9]

Keane is Cat. A, Tohill is Cat. B, BTW.

Ah well. Both will remain on the list anyway imo.

 

[35Daicos]

Clubs will still need to bring in new players, so I'm sure there'll be a draft of some sort, even if it's a scaled back version of what it usually is.

 

[adammania9]

Clubs will still need to bring in new players, so I'm sure there'll be a draft of some sort, even if it's a scaled back version of what it usually is.

Disagree. Nobody is playing or even training. I don’t think there is a need for any recruitment whatsoever besides trades between clubs perhaps.

 

[adammania9]

I'd say definite leaving would be

Broomhead
Varcoe
Reid
Dunn
Beams

Next most likely

Langdon - his knee is stuffed. If he plays on would need to be managed extensively probably playing limited games at best. We can't afford that with a smaller list.

Greenwood - I wouldn't have given him the year before he did his knee. With age now catching up and facing another year of no match play would need 2021 just to get the obligatory 12 months back playing but not great before he can perform ok in 2022. No.

Lynch - a luxury now we have Cameron and less useful as his forward play shows nothing.

Then the harder calls

Scharenberg - an inbetweener without the size to play big, the pace to play small. I think becomes a luxury.

Atu - on what is exposed form with no more in 2020 this becomes a query. Move to rookie if it still exists or might be in the frame.

Wills - I don't think we need if the younger guys come on, and if we are getting Reef.

Depending on final lists and how many we look to draft will see how far down that list we go.

Greenwood and Langdon were two that crossed my mind that I didn’t list because ability wise, they should stay. We’re trying to win a premiership, and those two can make a big difference. But I’m no coach or medical professional so I don’t know how things are going for them two, so they could both be at the end of the road if recovery isn’t successful. Some have suggested Greenwood was having a very good pre-season so I think he might have some unfinished business. He’s a true clubman, somebody who will throw himself around and get hit hands dirty for the benefit of his teammates. He has all year to recover, and if he does he deserves to be able to play on.

Langdon I’m not as confident on. Again, he’ll have all year to get himself fit because I don’t think footy is coming back but if it isn’t looking good, he should retire. But on that small chance that he can get close to where he was beforehand, I’d love to keep him.

 

[TradeDraft]

Moore and De Goey Definite Staying but we don't know IF other teams want the Other Players?

 

[35Daicos]

It might seem a bit harsh, but I think they could come up with 9 names rather easily, with several of them lucky to have still been on the list this year.

Definite
Appleby
Beams
Bosenavulagi
Broomhead
Dunn
Reid
Varcoe

Langdon (if fitness issue continues)

Possible
Greenwood
Lynch
Scharenberg
Thomas
Wills

 

[Robroy22]

Langdon, Beams, Shaz, Dunn, Varcs or Greenwood, Reid, Broomy, Apples, WILLS, Atu (maybe), Madgen or Lynch

Find a way to keep the rest.

 

[vicparksfinest]

It might seem a bit harsh, but I think they could come up with 9 names rather easily, with several of them lucky to have still been on the list this year.

Definite
Appleby
Beams
Bosenavulagi
Broomhead
Dunn
Reid
Varcoe

Langdon (if fitness issue continues)

Possible
Greenwood
Lynch
Scharenberg
Thomas
Wills

Would agree ALL of those listed will need to go, that takes us down to 34? on the list, we a certainly drafting Reef McInnes, there’s 35.
If we are wanting to draft more or pick up other discarded player/s more calls are needed, could even see Madgen go, who I think is actually great depth but if someone more promising gets cut could be worth a look.

 

[Harry O]

I think this list rule change will suit those clubs at the top of the ladder who are currently contending for the next 2-3 years. A bit like Hawthorn's 3 peat through the expansion teams draft era, I think it will be hard for the developing teams if they have to cut back their developing lists and they have limited access to new young talent.
Certainly wont be a rule change that will hurt Collingwood I wouldn't think.

What might hurt Collingwood is if they cull the Salary Cap too, as it will disadvantage clubs with players on big long term contracts like Grundy, De Goey etc

 

[Seedsfan]

Been a few times over the last few years we have only had 26-28 players. If they cut the list we may not field a team each week

 

[Harry O]

Been a few times over the last few years we have only had 26-28 players. If they cut the list we may not field a team each week

I would assume the AFL would need to consider short term 'injury replacement' contracts like basketball to supplement lists when this happens

 

[Seedsfan]

I would assume the AFL would need to consider short term 'injury replacement' contracts like basketball to supplement lists when this happens

If this happens. More likely the players are all forced into pay cuts as the AFLPA isn’t going to agree to putting 10% of its members out of work

 

[legendstatus]

I guess we top up VFL (if still around) and we can use these players if injuries become a concern as well as first dibs on them?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[manicmagpie]

I would shift Keane back to Cat B (if allowed) and delist Magden. He would be perfect as a state league call up if required.

My 9:

Magden
Broomhead
Appleby
Dunn
Beams
Varcoe
Bosenavulagi
Langdon (assuming worst case for his injury)
Reid

Substitute Scharenberg for Langdon if Langer's knee improves.

Reality is at least another 2 or 3 would have to be cut/traded to make way for incoming trades and draftees. Scharenberg, Lynch, Thomas, Greenwood and Wills probably next in line. Would want trades for most of them.

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

It might seem a bit harsh, but I think they could come up with 9 names rather easily, with several of them lucky to have still been on the list this year.

Definite
Appleby
Beams
Bosenavulagi
Broomhead
Dunn
Reid
Varcoe

Langdon (if fitness issue continues)

Possible
Greenwood
Lynch
Scharenberg
Thomas
Wills

Thomas is contracted until end of 2021.

On SM-G981B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[35Daicos]

Thomas is contracted until end of 2021.

On SM-G981B using BigFooty.com mobile app

I absolutely hope clubs are not forced to make wholesale cuts to their lists, but if it does happen Thomas could be the sort of player we'd try and move to another club. Most of the other names being thrown around here are of players that would just be delisted or retire.

 

[35Daicos]

Would agree ALL of those listed will need to go, that takes us down to 34? on the list, we a certainly drafting Reef McInnes, there’s 35.
If we are wanting to draft more or pick up other discarded player/s more calls are needed, could even see Madgen go, who I think is actually great depth but if someone more promising gets cut could be worth a look.

Under normal circumstances we'd be forced to elevate or delist Madgen at the end of the year (his 3rd on the Rookie List), though we might have delisted him then tried to take him back in the Rookie Draft. If lists are cut, and especially if they don't have Cat. A Rookies at all next year, I doubt that we'd be able to find a spot for him.

 

[Johno9911]

Reading this article I think we'd be the most interesting club in this situation. We have a bunch of older injury prone/ injured players and a couple of youngsters that haven't shown much in their brief exposure and potentially don't have a chance to stake a claim going forward.

Beams, Varcoe, Reid, Broomhead, Atu, Appleby - I think those 6 are pretty well locks should this situation arise.

Leaves Madgen (depends on what they do re rookie list etc), Shaz, Greenwood, Dunn and Langdon to be the other 3.

But that's where it get interesting, and could potentially be a Steve Bradbury situation. Langdon and Dunn would probably be the obvious 2 to keep however should neither be fit enough than Shaz and Madgen are probably the obvious fill ins (Shaz for Langdon, Madgen for Dunn). Imagine a situation where we let Shaz and Madgen go, only for Langdon and Dunn not to be able to return. Should Langdon and Dunn not be able to go again, Shaz and Madgen could well just hang on to their spots, depending on what happens with Greenwood.

Greenwood is the most interesting one if we keep him, where does he play? Smaller defenders are clearly Maynard, Crisp, Noble and even Mayne. While in the middle we already have the tough contested ball winners in Adams, Sier, Wills, the Brown brothers and even Reef coming in at years end. To me Greenwood is the least likely to stay out of the 5 I mentioned (just based on needs) and will probably go along with one of each of these two pairs Shaz/Langdon and Dunn/Madgen.

It could at the end of the day just be a case of which 2 are the most likely to get on the field when footy finally returns.

 

[manicmagpie]

How likely is a trade though for any of those in circumstances where all clubs are having to aggressively cut lists? The trade value of fringe best 22 prospects is going to go the way of the Zimbabwean dollar.

It's a fair point, although with tight list spots will come an increased focus on getting the right players to fit all the team's needs, positions and age profile. I reckon there might be quite a few clubs swapping these fringe players around to even out their stocks in different positions.

There might be clubs with a desperate need for a back up ruck, a versatile defender or an inside mid and so might want Schaz, Lynch or Wills. In turn we might need a tall forward or a genuine crumber and so trades can be worked out.

Who knows, though?

 

[barrackers]

If (when) list sizes are cut it will even important to have played a significant amount of footy at all levels (seniors, reverses, u18). We have quite a few players through injury, opportunity or development that find themselves on the cusp.

 

[swoop42]

If required our list cull should be pretty painless given a lot of the decisions would be clear cut IMHO due to age and/or injury history.

Might be the first time we actually snare one small benefit from the large casualty ward seen across Buckley's tenure.

 

[Kappa]

Langdon
Beams
Atu
Varcoe
Dunn
Reid
Applyby
Greenwood
Broomhead

Are the easy ones

Then the hard calls will be out of
Wills
Scharenberg
Lynch
Sier

 

[jackcass]

I personally think reducing lists and/or getting rid of the rookie programs is very short sighted. Prefer they look to balance the ledger over time Rather than go too hard to early.