Dane Swan

[Mossi]

Not exactly on topic , but John Greening was the best Pies player I have seen

I'll second that! That said I loved buckly's career, his ability to win the ball in the air and on the ground, reading of the play but most of all the cm precise 60 metre kicks!!
Swanny like Bucks was, is the best player in the league bar none! Over a whole game I can't recall him being beaten by his direct opponent this year. He did'nt have the best day in the drawn GF but because he didn't get his 35+ (26 I recall) possessions didn't mean he was beaten (the Saints as a team were better than us in the second half). Swanny may not have Bucks kicking boots but excels so much in the other areas especially in the never beaten one on one category and will be remembered by many of us along with Buckly as one of our greatest players!

 

[pauly_moss]

Obviously everyone is delusional, Anthony Corrie was the best ever player to don the magpie jumper. Its a pity his games were limited due to lack of injury and skill and heart and talent. The only debate is if Egan was any better but he also suffered the same fate

 

[Return of the Pies]

It's good debate, but for me, Bucks still by a fair bit. One point that has not been brought up is Bucks' versatility - to be able to play CHB on Carey, or kick 4-5 as a lead up forward later in his career made him far more the 'complete' footballer [eg: could you see Swan doing the job on Franklin??].

Also reckon Bucks was stiffed a couple of Copelands because of the extra expectation. At least one year he was pipped by Licuria I thought he was still clearly the best over the season.

I love Swan, he's unbelievable, but agree he's more in the Robert Harvey mould in terms of how he will be remembered - at least for me.

 

[shawthing09]

It's good debate, but for me, Bucks still by a fair bit. One point that has not been brought up is Bucks' versatility - to be able to play CHB on Carey, or kick 4-5 as a lead up forward later in his career made him far more the 'complete' footballer [eg: could you see Swan doing the job on Franklin??].

Also reckon Bucks was stiffed a couple of Copelands because of the extra expectation. At least one year he was pipped by Licuria I thought he was still clearly the best over the season.

I love Swan, he's unbelievable, but agree he's more in the Robert Harvey mould in terms of how he will be remembered - at least for me.

Bucks was obviously stiffed a couple Copeland's won the brownlow but did not win the Copeland in that year.

 

[smiddaz123]

As Buckley never played in a premiership, he simply can not be in their class or category, no matter how good he was IMO.

You surely can't actually believe this?

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Bucks was obviously stiffed a couple Copeland's won the brownlow but did not win the Copeland in that year.

Um... Yes he did...

Licuria won the Copeland in 2001-2002. Bucks won it in 2003.

 

[Dundalis]

Buckley took a team that talent wise was not in the top 8 of the league to a Granny, winning a norm smith in a losing team, which is a greater achievement than it sounds. Swan took a team that talent wise was easily top 6, and probably proved to be top 3 or 4 to a flag, being in amongst a handful of good players on each day.

From an individual achievement and leadership standpoint, Bucks achievement was far greater.

 

[MarkT2]

Len Thompson's 5 Copleands are worth more than Buckley's IMO because he did it against better competition from within. That's not to deny Buckley his place in Collingwood history or his status as a player but IMO Buckley is far from Collingwood's bets player. He might well be it's most consistent though.

Daicos was a more talented player and at his best a more effective player. He destroyed matches. Phil Carmen was awesome on his day but he was a nut. Had he been popular with team mates he would probably have ended up our best ever. John Greening was as good as Carmen but we all know nwhat happened there.

Hard to comment on Bob Rose but as a kid I was told he was our best ever by many a long time Collingwood supporter. "Leeter" Colier was supposed to be awsesome but I don't anyone who saw him play.

I have a book somewhere at home profiling 100 Collingwood greats. I haven't seen it for a long time. Now I want to find it and read it again.

Swan is also far from being as good as Buckley. He is probably as good at getting the ball but nowhere near as good at using it. That is a significant difference that will never be overcome. He could very well end up with more Copelands than any player in our history though. He'll start 2011 favorite.

 

[MarkT2]

Buckley took a team that talent wise was not in the top 8 of the league to a Granny,

No he didn't. Buckley lead the worst team in the comp to a spoon and the following year they still finished second last. In 2002 many players had emerged. No way in hell were we not in the best 4 sides. We finished inside the top 4 and beat the top side without Buckley in the first final. That side also carried the 2002 form into 2003 - until the last game.

The 2002 squad was and is underrated. Add the equivilent of Jolly and we may well have 2 more flags. 2002 was close and we were soundly beaten in the ruck when it counted. 2003 we were smashed in the ruck and Mathews built the entire game plan for that day around the knowledge that would be the case.

Ayway, arging about levels of greatness is a nice argument to be able to have.

 

[mattys123]

Swan, by the end of his career, will be a "Collingwood Great".

That's enough for me, he will be able to be mentioned in the same sentence as Buckley, Rose, Thompson, Coventry, Collier etc, and that in itself is an amazing achievement, especially considering his somewhat "ungamely" manner.

The argument as to "how good" he is can't be answered until his career is finished, as with Buckley at the same age had played in one final, and that at the time probably would have hurt his long term rep if he hadn't of played on and played so well in finals and GF's after that initial period.

Come back in 6-7 years when Swanny's done, then we can wait for Pendle's to finish, then Sidebottom, then Josh Thomas, then Fasolo (oops, getting a bit ahead of myself).

 

[hotpies2010]

i think dane is a champion already how much more do you want him to do? he is up their with bucks and the likes

 

[doppleganger]

Swan has been a great player for 4 or 5 seasons now....ie since 06-07. He needs to put it together for another 5 to be up with Buckley.

Buckley won the Copeland in his first year with the club, 94.....the team made the finals and had many of the 1990 premiership heroes running around.

Buckley won Copeland's when we were terrible in the late 90s....ie he was a shining light in the dark days

Buckley won norm smith, brownlow, Copeland when we were a good team in 02-03.....ie when surrounded with quality Buckley still shone.

Buckley was our best player for 10 years....94-03 and if injury didn't cut him down he prob would have been all the way through til 2006. Interesting to note Buckley and Swan's respective season's in 2006.....hard to argue who was the more influential player IMO and both were top 10 in the Copeland (Swan's first good year and Bucks' last).

Buckley was also stiff not to receive the Copeland in 2001 and 1997........he really could/should have 8 BnFs.

 

[doppleganger]

i think dane is a champion already how much more do you want him to do? he is up their with bucks and the likes

Swan needs to perform at his current level for another 5-6 years.

Be great if he does, as the pies will prob have a couple more flags.

 

[mdc]

The other thing that's worth noting in any debate is that the coaching staff under MM has always blatantly awarded copeland votes on the basis of expectation/talent fulfilment. It's why Licuria has 2 BnFs and Rocca doesn't have a single top 5 finish.

It's also why Buckley finished 3rd in 2001 (behind Molloy ) and a ridiculous 9th in 2002 (despite averaging 23 touches and finishing top 5 in the AFL in tackles).

Swan, otoh, falls squarely into the making-the-most-of-his-talent heap.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

A couple of old Pies fans that I have met rate Phil Carmen the best Collingwood player they've ever seen, even with his problems. His best football just about eclipsed anything any other player has done in the history of the game.

As for the Buckley/Swan comparison, Buckley was clearly better IMO.

Swan is a great in his time and will be an all-time Collingwood great. Buckley is an all-time great for both club and competition. It seems ridiculous to say but Buckley was underrated as a footballer, he was literally as close to perfect as it got. MUCH MUCH MUCH better footballer than Voss and at least as good as Hird. He's the best midfielder I've seen in my lifetime and as a player only behind the geat forwards like Carey, Lockett, Ablett and Dunstall. He was brilliant 1on1, an amazing inside player, an amazing outside player, strong as they came, a great leader and the best kick of a footy I've ever seen. He was seriously quick earlier in his career too. Swan's kicking, whilst effective, is the reason he will never get to Buckley's level. The rest of his game stacks up well IMO.

 

[Kirby]

The other thing that's worth noting in any debate is that the coaching staff under MM has always blatantly awarded copeland votes on the basis of expectation/talent fulfilment. It's why Licuria has 2 BnFs and Rocca doesn't have a single top 5 finish.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. There's been a lot of that going on under MM.

 

[Subtemperate]

As Buckley never played in a premiership, he simply can not be in their class or category, no matter how good he was IMO.

On that basis I guess you would say Tony Lockett and Gary Ablett Snr aren't in the same league as Peter Sumich?


Unless they changed things a while back, dont players get votes just for playing a game? I thought they get a basic vote of 1 if they play... and then more depending on how they were judged. Bucks missed 4 matches in 2002 and a couple in 2001.... I always thought it was the voting system making it hard for players who miss a couple of games to keep in the hunt.

...On topic, Swan is halfway through his career..... He could retire from nowhere like Clement... could get an injury ending his career..... could leave and go to WSG... who knows.... I think hes already been a star for us.... and as a champion of the club will always be remembered as such. If he continues in this way he will go down as a legend... but lets not count the chickens here yet.

 

[Dundalis]

No he didn't. Buckley lead the worst team in the comp to a spoon and the following year they still finished second last. In 2002 many players had emerged. No way in hell were we not in the best 4 sides. We finished inside the top 4 and beat the top side without Buckley in the first final. That side also carried the 2002 form into 2003 - until the last game.

The 2002 squad was and is underrated. Add the equivilent of Jolly and we may well have 2 more flags. 2002 was close and we were soundly beaten in the ruck when it counted. 2003 we were smashed in the ruck and Mathews built the entire game plan for that day around the knowledge that would be the case.

Ayway, arging about levels of greatness is a nice argument to be able to have.

I said talent wise. Work ethic wise, that team was probably number 1 in the comp. Purely talent wise though, I don't reckon they were top 8. Other than Bucks and maybe a couple others, the skill level of the side was terrible. Players could barely chain two passes together by foot in a row. We were turnover merchants. Of course, like we do now, we minimised the effect of the turnovers by going down the boundary. We didn't use the same frontal pressure, but we were still indomitable in defense with the likes of Presti, Clement and Wakelin, and our mids worked harder than any other sides mids and were physical. But overall we were gimps when it came to skill and ability.

Bucks made up for that a lot by putting polish on a lot of the hard work done by the other mids including himself, and creating offensive opportunities that no one else in our side had the ability to create (nor most other players in the competition). There's no question in my mind he had a lot more to do with that side getting to two Grannys, than Swan had to do with us winning a flag, and IMO his was a much greater achievement.

 

[MarkT2]

I am going to have to disagree with you about the talent. The reason we won in 2010 was that the talent went deeper and we had a ruckman IMO.

 

[Dundalis]

Most certainly the talent runs deeper in 2010. That's why we won. Not sure what you are disagreeing with there, as I fully agree with that.