Analysis Dangerfields drop in form

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Seeds

Hall of Famer
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I don't know
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I’ve heard club people mention he never wants to miss a game, even when he’s sore and would be better off for the rest. Needs to stop being so stubborn and realise it’s only going to result in him being cooked come the end of the season. Should be clear as day to him as come the biggest games of the year he’s looked completely shot the last few years.

Someone at the club should also be checking his ego. For his own good.
This would of been good to happen 3 years ago. His peak has kind of past now though. even if what you say is true he aint reaching the levels he once did. And his niggles are only going to get worse.
 

Down at K Park

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This would of been good to happen 3 years ago. His peak has kind of past now though. even if what you say is true he aint reaching the levels he once did. And his niggles are only going to get worse.
I will wait and see. Hopefully it was just the injuries, and a full pre-season will bring the explosiveness back. If it doesn’t, he will decline quickly as it’s his main weapon.
 

catscollector

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I will wait and see. Hopefully it was just the injuries, and a full pre-season will bring the explosiveness back. If it doesn’t, he will decline quickly as it’s his main weapon.

But he's such a terrific mark by comparison to other midfielders other than Fyfe.
You would think he could adapt in the forward line using that skill alone. He's not a short guy either. 189cm is a very good height for any medium sized forward to create a lot of havoc if you win the ball like he can.
 

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Down at K Park

Brownlow Medallist
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But he's such a terrific mark by comparison to other midfielders other than Fyfe.
You would think he could adapt in the forward line using that skill alone. He's not a short guy either. 189cm is a very good height for any medium sized forward to create a lot of havoc if you win the ball like he can.
If only he was a reliable set shot, then he could take advantage.
 

Partridge

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But he's such a terrific mark by comparison to other midfielders other than Fyfe.
You would think he could adapt in the forward line using that skill alone. He's not a short guy either. 189cm is a very good height for any medium sized forward to create a lot of havoc if you win the ball like he can.

Problem is people never seem to get there are things called defenders. And they are better at spoiling than midfielders are. And better at everything else defensively. Much better.

We saw it a couple of years ago when Dangerfield went forward against Richmond. Hardwick put Rance on him. He touched the ball a couple of times in an hour. It is nowhere near as easy as so many fans seem to think it is. But whenever a star midfielder kicks a couple of goals now, it's confidently predicted that they'll become great forwards. It happened with Buckley. It happened with Ricciuto. It happened with Voss. All completely wrong and my bet is it will be with Dangerfield too. His best haul was 45 in 2017 and he's not close to that player anymore.
 

Kobe Gryant

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Problem is people never seem to get there are things called defenders. And they are better at spoiling than midfielders are. And better at everything else defensively. Much better.

We saw it a couple of years ago when Dangerfield went forward against Richmond. Hardwick put Rance on him. He touched the ball a couple of times in an hour. It is nowhere near as easy as so many fans seem to think it is. But whenever a star midfielder kicks a couple of goals now, it's confidently predicted that they'll become great forwards. It happened with Buckley. It happened with Ricciuto. It happened with Voss. All completely wrong and my bet is it will be with Dangerfield too. His best haul was 45 in 2017 and he's not close to that player anymore.

Largely true. People forget whenever these mids have huge games as forwards a lot of their touches come from their direct midfield opponent who has followed them forward (Seen the Pies do this a few times with Greenwood on Dusty)

The other is the mismatch where the midfielder gets the 3rd or 4th string defender and puts on a show while the the key defenders are occupied.

As you said, when a guy like Danger actually has to go against the opposition's number one in Rance he struggles.
 

Partridge

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Largely true. People forget whenever these mids have huge games as forwards a lot of their touches come from their direct midfield opponent who has followed them forward (Seen the Pies do this a few times with Greenwood on Dusty)

The other is the mismatch where the midfielder gets the 3rd or 4th string defender and puts on a show while the the key defenders are occupied.

As you said, when a guy like Danger actually has to go against the opposition's number one in Rance he struggles.

Yep. When you seriously look at it over time, how many star midfielders have legitimately become star forwards? I'd say Matthews and Bartlett, and Ablett was initially a winger (but was always a goalkicker). How many others in reality? You could probably put a case forward for Brad Johnson, who definitely had a second and very good career as a forward. Aside from that though, it's pretty tough to think of anyone.
 

Cursed Cat

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Yep. When you seriously look at it over time, how many star midfielders have legitimately become star forwards? I'd say Matthews and Bartlett, and Ablett was initially a winger (but was always a goalkicker). How many others in reality? You could probably put a case forward for Brad Johnson, who definitely had a second and very good career as a forward. Aside from that though, it's pretty tough to think of anyone.

Daicos too.
But I take your point.
 

Vdubs

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Yep. When you seriously look at it over time, how many star midfielders have legitimately become star forwards? I'd say Matthews and Bartlett, and Ablett was initially a winger (but was always a goalkicker). How many others in reality? You could probably put a case forward for Brad Johnson, who definitely had a second and very good career as a forward. Aside from that though, it's pretty tough to think of anyone.

Dusty? Should be if not already.
 

Partridge

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Dusty? Should be if not already.

He's dangerous, but full time forward, as in, can be relied upon to kick goals? Not yet he's not.

Very good goalkicking midfielder undoubtedly, but again, a very different thing to being expected to kick goals against proper defenders. On a regular basis too.
 

catscollector

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Hird was a midfielder who could go forward and instantly dominate.
I guess there's a link between all these players listed. They were not just brilliant players but they were/are regarded as the greatest of all time.

It would be interesting to see if Dustin Martin can now go forward and start kicking 50 goals as a permanent forward. That would really stamp his legacy on the game.
 

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Partridge

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Hird was a midfielder who could go forward and instantly dominate.
I guess there's a link between all these players listed. They were not just brilliant players but they were/are regarded as the greatest of all time.

It would be interesting to see if Dustin Martin can now go forward and start kicking 50 goals as a permanent forward. That would really stamp his legacy on the game.

Interesting as I didn't mention Hird as I figured his forward output was easily better than Voss, Ricciuto etc. In reality it isn't by much at all.

Only kicked more than 40 goals in a season once (in 1995 with 47). So his forward output wasn't nearly as amazing as people probably think it was.
 

catscollector

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Interesting as I didn't mention Hird as I figured his forward output was easily better than Voss, Ricciuto etc. In reality it isn't by much at all.

Only kicked more than 40 goals in a season once (in 1995 with 47). So his forward output wasn't nearly as amazing as people probably think it was.

Hird booted 4+ goals 21 times throughout his career.
He rarely, if ever, played a whole match up forward. If he did, no doubt he would have been prolific as his marking was elite and his goal sense was uncanny.

Hird's one of the greatest players ever in my opinion. Other than Carey, Ablett and a few others, never seen a player flip around a game in such a manner as what he could on a consistent basis. A level above Roo and Voss in my view.
 

Partridge

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Hird booted 4+ goals 21 times throughout his career.
He rarely, if ever, played a whole match up forward. If he did, no doubt he would have been prolific as his marking was elite and his goal sense was uncanny.

Hird's one of the greatest players ever in my opinion. Other than Carey, Ablett and a few others, never seen a player flip around a game in such a manner as what he could on a consistent basis. A level above Roo and Voss in my view.

Fair enough, depends on who you've seen. In my view he was very good, but I've seen plenty better (Ablett, Carey, Lockett, Williams, Ablett junior are five that immediately come to mind for starters). I actually think Voss's best was better, but he didn't maintain it for long.
 

Vdubs

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Daicos too.
But I take your point.
Daicos was mainly always a forward. He will not be remembered as a great mid who ended up as a forward, from my recollections.
Either way, not too many better players to have played the game.
 

Cursed Cat

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Daicos was mainly always a forward. He will not be remembered as a great mid who ended up as a forward, from my recollections.
Either way, not too many better players to have played the game.

One of my all-time favourites for sure Dubs.

My recollection is that he played at least a couple of seasons predominantly as a centreman early in his career; always a goalkicker though.
 

standupand

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Daicos was mainly always a forward. He will not be remembered as a great mid who ended up as a forward, from my recollections.
Either way, not too many better players to have played the game.
Gehrig is another who started out as a bit of a wing/utility and then became a dominant key forward later in his career. Was never a champion mid of course, but still shows some adaptability to reinvent himself as a forward.
 

standupand

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Hird booted 4+ goals 21 times throughout his career.
He rarely, if ever, played a whole match up forward. If he did, no doubt he would have been prolific as his marking was elite and his goal sense was uncanny.

Hird's one of the greatest players ever in my opinion. Other than Carey, Ablett and a few others, never seen a player flip around a game in such a manner as what he could on a consistent basis. A level above Roo and Voss in my view.
I recall watching a game live bombers v lions around early 2000s where he played predominately forward and he had that aura about him that GAS had where you sensed something would happen whenever the ball went near him. Before that, I hadn't really appreciated the hype about him.
 

Vdubs

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One of my all-time favourites for sure Dubs.

My recollection is that he played at least a couple of seasons predominantly as a centreman early in his career; always a goalkicker though.
You are probably correct.
Definitely puts Daicos in that list with Lethal and Hungry. And Senior.
 

catstragic

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Largely true. People forget whenever these mids have huge games as forwards a lot of their touches come from their direct midfield opponent who has followed them forward (Seen the Pies do this a few times with Greenwood on Dusty)

The other is the mismatch where the midfielder gets the 3rd or 4th string defender and puts on a show while the the key defenders are occupied.

As you said, when a guy like Danger actually has to go against the opposition's number one in Rance he struggles.

I think that's the advantage of Danger forward in the short term- He is always going to get the 3rd or worse defender with JC and Hawk playing.
 

Meteoric Rise

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Yep. When you seriously look at it over time, how many star midfielders have legitimately become star forwards? I'd say Matthews and Bartlett, and Ablett was initially a winger (but was always a goalkicker). How many others in reality? You could probably put a case forward for Brad Johnson, who definitely had a second and very good career as a forward. Aside from that though, it's pretty tough to think of anyone.

Pretty hard to know where to draw the line and difficult to recall everyone off hand, but on top of the players you and others mentioned and ruled in I think I can add a few ……

Former Cats coach Malcom Blight won a Magarey and a Brownlow playing mainly ruck-rover, and of course won a Coleman Medal essentially playing as a Full Forward in 1982. He also went back to the SANFL and kicked 120+ in a season there.

Bob Skilton was a superb rover of course winning 3 Brownlows. But in one of his Brownlow years, 1959 he slotted 60 goals. He averaged 1.74 goals per game over his career and was his club’s leading goal kicker on 3 separate occasions. He was clearly a quality forward, something that always seems to be overlooked in discussions about him.

I read what you wrote about Dustin Martin, but I think you have him wrong in terms of his standing as a forward. I think he is at least as good a forward as he is a midfielder, but plays more in the midfield due to the importance of the position. His goal kicking and goal assist exploits when stationed forward in what is now a relatively large sample size of the biggest games settles the question of how good a forward he is beyond doubt for mine. He has 25 goals+goal assists in 7 Preliminary and Grand Finals, while spending large amounts of time not stationed near goal. The best available opposition has found no answer to him at all even when it was clear the role he would be playing. Another huge clue to his forward prowess came in his second year in the AFL when he slotted 33 goals and had 20 goal assists in a still weak Richmond team.

Darren Jarman is another who probably fits the bill given his obvious midfield class and game breaking exploits as a forward in multiple Grand Finals.

Apart from those you I can think of a couple of wingers worth mentioning. Robert Flower was a champion winger who late in his career had some memorable performances as a forward. Michael Turner probably not as good a winger as Flower but was a very decent one, and did very well forward late career as well. Through the ages I am sure there have been plenty of others, Billy Barrot is another worthy of a mention, a champion centreman famous for blowing some big games open when stationed forward, notably the 1969 Grand Final. I’ve seen Michael Walters play many great midfield games and has no doubt been an elite small forward. Jim and Phil Krakouer were pretty tidy on ball and forward, whether you would call them truly elite in both positions, I am not so sure. There are probably loads of other players like these.

I agree with you that a lot of mids who dine out on mismatches from time to time when forward are not really proving they can be an elite specialist forward. I do think there would be plenty of gun mids who would have been elite level forwards had they played significant time there.
 
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