Player Watch Darcy Moore

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Daicos was absolutely incredible and could do anything with the ball in his hand. An All time great who changed everyone's perception of what was possible.

He's a really interesting one for these sort of discussions though, because the Daicos we all talk about is the guy in the second half of his career whose body was shot, needed a litre of cortisone to get on the park, and could barely run. To me that makes him even more incredible, but you could argue: With the defensive running necessary to play as a small forward in modern footy, would that guy who wowed us all, get picked to play seniors in 2019.
Absolutely he’d be picked.
Scoring highly, getting the ball trumps any deficiencies.
The team might not pick three weak defensive types but they’d take Daicos absolutely.
 

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partypie

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While I fully respect KM's opinion I feel Darcy has the firm potential to be generational as a KPD.

In my time within this mortal coil I don't ever recall a KPD with the same combination of size, athleticism, speed, one-on-one defending, reading of the ball in flight and pinpoint disposal that Darcy has displayed to this point in 2019.

There are some areas which obviously need working on and a number of rough edges to polish, but even after this small sample size Darcy is impressing in such a variety of ways and at such a level that he already looks like a stand out even amongst a very sold crop of young KPD's - and that is without the benefit of the several years worth of development those other young KPD's have gained.

Time will tell in terms of how Darcy develops, but I don't think there has ever been a more exciting first 7 games out of a new KPD than we've seen out of Darcy this year (from a potential standpoint).
 
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sr36

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Absolutely he’d be picked.
Scoring highly, getting the ball trumps any deficiencies.
The team might not pick three weak defensive types but they’d take Daicos absolutely.
I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure. His defensive pressure would be the lowest in the AFL by a significant margin.
 

jackcass

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Daicos was absolutely incredible and could do anything with the ball in his hand. An All time great who changed everyone's perception of what was possible.

He's a really interesting one for these sort of discussions though, because the Daicos we all talk about is the guy in the second half of his career whose body was shot, needed a litre of cortisone to get on the park, and could barely run. To me that makes him even more incredible, but you could argue: With the defensive running necessary to play as a small forward in modern footy, would that guy who wowed us all, get picked to play seniors in 2019.
Would 2019 medical procedures and injury management mean he'd still be running through the midfield?
 

jonbe54

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As good as Lance is, he’s just not what Tony Lockett was.

Locket superior when the ball is higher; Lockett more powerful (Franklin is no slouch) and Lockett are superior set shot.

If anything I think it might be fair to suggest Franklin plays more like Ablett Snr would play or could play. Malcolm Blight the same, that wandering out and flank play. If I can put it that way.

But Franklin is exciting like an Ablett but in my view not the superior.

For full forward Lockett, Hudson, Dunstall, McKenna have him covered in my view. And Franklin is a champion so no slight.

Also today’s style of play favours Franklin in my view as he can roam, because as a stay at home full forward he’d not be as strong high up, arms up.

But we are comparing the best few aren’t we.
Was privileged to watch the careers of McKenna, Hudson and Wade - all of whom would eat current day forwards for a snack.

Much and all as I loved McKenna Hudson was the greatest full forward then and now - he could do it all - in the air and on the ground including one trait exceedingly rare in power full forwards . . . he would give it off to a team mate in a certain scoring position.

Never having seen either Gordon Coventry or Toddy I can't comment but dad watched them play and was glowing in his praise along with his Collingwood supporter friends.
 

jonbe54

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I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure. His defensive pressure would be the lowest in the AFL by a significant margin.
No argument on defensive pressure sr . . .

But from one who has seen his entire career - if young Nick is of a level with his dad then coaches all over the country are going to start pulling their hair out by the roots again and back men / on-ballers are going to be treated to many sleepless nights when told the night before that they will be standing Daicos.

It wasn't just the scoreline - it was the emotional impact - the 'how the fruck did he do that???' factor which can't be documented in stats.

A tall medium high forward with the marking and evasive skills of Daicos simply CAN'T be negated - I've seen everything fair tried and they quite simply failed.

One factoid for those credulous of the emotional factor . . .

Many a time standing in the outer on a wet and windy Saturday arvo and munching on a sausage roll I and basically the entire ground would go quiet when Daicos swooped towards the ball, conversation stopped and children shushed. Every Magpie supporter's face was rapt with eyes riveted, whilst opposition fans would go several shades of white and get a sick look on their face.

We all knew what was coming.

And when the inevitable coup de gras was enacted the opposition supporters would groan.

No cheering from the magpie faithful .

Just one word . .

In a loud, reverent whisper . . .

. . . . DAICOS!!!!!

He changed the face of football by the sheer power of his prodigious talent.
 
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sirlothie

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No argument on defensive pressure sr . . .

But from one who has seen his entire career - if young Nick is of a level with his dad then coaches all over the country are going to start pulling their hair out by the roots again and back men / on-ballers are going to be treated to many sleepless nights when told the night before that they will be standing Daicos.

It wasn't just the scoreline - it was the emotional impact - the 'how the fruck did he do that???' factor which can't be documented in stats.

A tall medium high forward with the marking and evasive skills of Daicos simply CAN'T be negated - I've seen everything fair tried and they quite simply failed.

One factoid for those credulous of the emotional factor . . .

Many a time standing in the outer on a wet and windy Saturday arvo and munching on a sausage roll I and basically the entire ground would go quiet when Daicos swooped towards the ball, conversation stopped and children shushed. Every Magpie supporter's face was rapt with eyes riveted, whilst opposition fans would go several shades of white and get a sick look on their face.

We all knew what was coming.

And when the inevitable coup de gras was enacted the opposition supporters would groan.

No cheering from the magpie faithful .

Just one word . .

In a loud, reverent whisper . . .

. . . . DAICOS!!!!!

He changed the face of football by the sheer power of his prodigious talent.
The only other one who you know it going to put it in from anywhere ridiculous is Betts and he is being talked about as the best small forward to ever play the game but Daicos had a higher degree of difficulty in some of his goals, his inside out from the boundary against West Coast in the final Brown to Millane to Daicos!!! i saw in the flesh from a very good angle and he shouldn't have been able to get that, he had to land it on a 10 cent coin from that angle but he did and the one at Vic Park against Richmond on the other side boundary line where he didn't even bother to pick it up but kicked it out of mid air from the boundary having no control of the drop onto his foot was just outrageous but it was him so you knew it was going in. I'm sure he did but I can hardly remember him kicking a point. Also he had the long range factor and kicked the most glorious torps with regularity and never munged it, if Daicos wound up for a torp there was never any doubt he would get onto it and it would go straight through the middle.

He could do things with his feet noone else could even dream about. Even as a kid I just shook my head, the ridiculous became normal for him.
 

jonbe54

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The only other one who you know it going to put it in from anywhere ridiculous is Betts and he is being talked about as the best small forward to ever play the game but Daicos had a higher degree of difficulty in some of his goals, his inside out from the boundary against West Coast in the final Brown to Millane to Daicos!!! i saw in the flesh from a very good angle and he shouldn't have been able to get that, he had to land it on a 10 cent coin from that angle but he did and the one at Vic Park against Richmond on the other side boundary line where he didn't even bother to pick it up but kicked it out of mid air from the boundary having no control of the drop onto his foot was just outrageous but it was him so you knew it was going in. I'm sure he did but I can hardly remember him kicking a point. Also he had the long range factor and kicked the most glorious torps with regularity and never munged it, if Daicos wound up for a torp there was never any doubt he would get onto it and it would go straight through the middle.

He could do things with his feet noone else could even dream about. Even as a kid I just shook my head, the ridiculous became normal for him.
Agreed although for me that goal against West coast when he was on the boundary line in the forward pocket and being dragged off his feet away from goal by Gastev was probably his finest piece of forward work I have seen from him - simply jaw dropping control and poise.
 

sirlothie

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Agreed although for me that goal against West coast when he was on the boundary line in the forward pocket and being dragged off his feet away from goal by Gastev was probably his finest piece of forward work I have seen from him - simply jaw dropping control and poise.
Yeah that was another one, completely thrown off balance and not long away from landing on his arse but still has control of his foot to goal from a tough angle. Nobody has matched once some types of goals Daicos did multiple times to prove it wasn't a fluke. His 1990 Grand Final goals are underrated too, the first one he had Terry Daniher scratching his head in the goal square after kicking a drop punt from the boundary line on the run and the second one he was getting pushed off balance on the line of the behind line and somehow not only got boot to ball but it went through. That one was as tight as angles get and he did it under red hot pressure but because it was Daicos we just like yep, that's Daicos for you... the surprise factor was gone.
 

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The only other one who you know it going to put it in from anywhere ridiculous is Betts and he is being talked about as the best small forward to ever play the game but Daicos had a higher degree of difficulty in some of his goals, his inside out from the boundary against West Coast in the final Brown to Millane to Daicos!!! i saw in the flesh from a very good angle and he shouldn't have been able to get that, he had to land it on a 10 cent coin from that angle but he did and the one at Vic Park against Richmond on the other side boundary line where he didn't even bother to pick it up but kicked it out of mid air from the boundary having no control of the drop onto his foot was just outrageous but it was him so you knew it was going in. I'm sure he did but I can hardly remember him kicking a point. Also he had the long range factor and kicked the most glorious torps with regularity and never munged it, if Daicos wound up for a torp there was never any doubt he would get onto it and it would go straight through the middle.

He could do things with his feet noone else could even dream about. Even as a kid I just shook my head, the ridiculous became normal for him.
Eddie Betts v Peter Daicos not close for me.

Daicos by so so so far.
 

sirlothie

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Eddie Betts v Peter Daicos not close for me.

Daicos by so so so far.
Betts has made a habit from the boundary line but like I said, the difficulty factor in Daicos' goals was much harder than what Betts has done. Anyone else would just run it over the line in some of the tight spaces Daicos found himself in but Daicos goaled out of it when he had a bee's pube of room to operate in and under enormous pressure.
 

sr36

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Agreed although for me that goal against West coast when he was on the boundary line in the forward pocket and being dragged off his feet away from goal by Gastev was probably his finest piece of forward work I have seen from him - simply jaw dropping control and poise.
I'm voting for the countless - body work to protect the ball zone, one handed chest mark, torp fr0m 60.
 

jmac70

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Trying to compare players directly to different eras is meaningless, the game is completely different nowadays and a lot harder to dominate like it was in the past.

No doubt those players were greats of their time, but the modern player is faster, stronger, MUCH fitter, jumps higher, has better skills and a better game understanding. Players are simply better now, that's undeniable. Nostalgia is a very powerful it seems though, so modern players rarely get the accolades they deserve.
Did you see Ablett play?
 

sirlothie

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I'm voting for the countless - body work to protect the ball zone, one handed chest mark, torp fr0m 60.
Daicos was awesome at loading up a big bomb but he was matched by A. Rocca. I love it when you thought no surely not from here but back they go and let rip, straight through the middle post high and the jaws would drop. :)
 

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Champion Data last year rated Harris Andrews elite and as the second best key defender in the competition.

He's early 2019 down early season and statistically and Moore rates favourably at the moment in intercept marks/contested marks/intercept possessions though my expectation is that Andrews improves his intercept possessions/intercept marks/contested marks numbers which are all well down so far this season. Andrews' 2018 play was of a higher standard than what Moore is doing presently.

Rating Andrews more highly than Moore shouldn't be surprising with Andrews younger and having achieved more in recent years. Moore needs a sustained period of good health and continued form to deserve that level of recognition.
Champion Data don't tell then Whole Story
 

sr36

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Absolutely he’d be picked.
Scoring highly, getting the ball trumps any deficiencies.
The team might not pick three weak defensive types but they’d take Daicos absolutely.
Yeah stuff it, you're right. Daics and defensive pressure is a bit like what the modern coaches would say to Gary Ablett Senior:

"Jesus Gazza. You haven't turned up to training for 6 weeks. You've got no idea where you are meant to be in our zone. You don't even know that we play a zone. We can't pick you...

But you're playing because you stand on heads, bomb goals from everywhere, win every contest that you're in and frankly terror of your hip and shoulder causes more panicked turnovers than our zone ever will."
 

Carringbush2010

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I think a lot of our different point of view comes down to a difference in footy philosophy. I view the game as a game that's won and lost depending on how well you attack and defend. Whereas I get the impression that you may view the game as one where you win or lose by controlling possession.

From my perspective of attack and defend, Scarlett, Jakovich and the way Moore is projecting are the ones I want, because they defend so well through a combination of marking and punching - which I think you are underrating as it regularly leads to team intercepts. But they also contribute to attacking by running with the ball, taking the game on and using it effectively. Lake and McGovern defend really well through marking it, but their 'safe' ball movement actually restricts attack as it allows the opposition to set up behind the ball.

Whereas if you're looking from a perspective of controlling possession, McGovern and Lake with their outstanding intercept marking and safe ball movement are probably the one's to go for. I just don't agree with the controlling possession perspective.
I've been watching this conversation with interest. What you haven't mentioned in this post is that Lake / Gov playe(d) in transition style teams that guard space so very well that it disallows the opposition to "set up behind the ball" wc in particular, our round 3 game was a glaring example - so "safe" ball use is not really an issue and in fact enhances their method.

Where as swarm and spread teams like us it is an issue, more so against teams like these - again round 3 was clear evidence of this. Tried to out wc wc and failed.

You and Knightmare are both correct in your arguments, there's nothing wrong with a grunt possession style game - has worked for pretty well for us in the last two seasons. Also nothing wrong with a "keepings off" and disallow the oppo territory by structuring up in front and behind to disallow any transition of the oppo style of footy either. More personnel reliant though.

How does this apply to Moore? I'd argue the "run and gun back himself" style of Moore is better suited to our game where as the other two are "pre structured" to intercept anything that comes in with anything less than surgical precision.

IMV they're different players but because of his athleticism and as you point out his ground work and all facets of his game he could adapt better than those two to "other" game styles.
 
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