Player Watch Darcy Moore

[Saintly Viewed]

Buddy Franklin is the greatest forward to ever play the game. If buddy was a goal square full forward like Lockett he would've kicked 1500 goals easily.

As good as Lance is, he’s just not what Tony Lockett was.

Locket superior when the ball is higher; Lockett more powerful (Franklin is no slouch) and Lockett are superior set shot.

If anything I think it might be fair to suggest Franklin plays more like Ablett Snr would play or could play. Malcolm Blight the same, that wandering out and flank play. If I can put it that way.

But Franklin is exciting like an Ablett but in my view not the superior.

For full forward Lockett, Hudson, Dunstall, McKenna have him covered in my view. And Franklin is a champion so no slight.

Also today’s style of play favours Franklin in my view as he can roam, because as a stay at home full forward he’d not be as strong high up, arms up.

But we are comparing the best few aren’t we.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Trying to compare players directly to different eras is meaningless, the game is completely different nowadays and a lot harder to dominate like it was in the past.

No doubt those players were greats of their time, but the modern player is faster, stronger, MUCH fitter, jumps higher, has better skills and a better game understanding. Players are simply better now, that's undeniable. Nostalgia is a very powerful it seems though, so modern players rarely get the accolades they deserve.

To me you can but it’s a form of transposing.
You have to theoretically accept a player of yesteryear would adapt to today.
Leigh Matthews would be an all time great today.
John Coleman the same.
Ted Whitten.
Bob Rose.
Albert Thurgood.

Assuming all, if born in today’s times, would have the requisite discipline and training and good and dedication they’d just adjust. Obviously people are getting taller so the assumption is their size grows generationally as well.

(If you can’t do the same extrapolation then there’s no discussion because new will always trump the old.)

 

[JB1975]

Trying to compare players directly to different eras is meaningless, the game is completely different nowadays and a lot harder to dominate like it was in the past.

No doubt those players were greats of their time, but the modern player is faster, stronger, MUCH fitter, jumps higher, has better skills and a better game understanding. Players are simply better now, that's undeniable. Nostalgia is a very powerful it seems though, so modern players rarely get the accolades they deserve.

I'm inclined to agree with the highlighted part of your first sentence. Maybe it goes too far to say that comparison is meaningless, but any direct comparison between great players across different generations will never properly account for changes in the way the game is played. We can meaningfully compare a lot of attributes, like spectacular marking and evasiveness, but no one who has watched football from the 1980s to the present could deny that the game has changed in some fundamental ways.

Having said that, I actually think that the skill and athleticism of modern players too easily overshadows the greatness of earlier players. Daicos remains revered by the faithful, and yet his standing among fans of the game more generally is too often diminished by the fact that players in the present can routinely perform those feats which were once considered Daicos 'magic'. And how do you capture or compare the anticipation such a player caused among the crowd, the sense that something ridiculous and sublime was about to happen...and then the collective awe when something freaky did happen?

The problem is that you can't. It is because the game has evolved or in any case changed that the greatness of the greatest has been, I think, diminished over time. For me, the fact that people think that Ablett Jr is even worthy of being compared to Ablett Snr epitomises the problem; we're so caught up with the attributes of modern champions that we've forgotten what made those players so great in their own time. I feel fortunate to have seen Ablett Snr play, and I'll admit that I suffer from occasional bouts of nostalgia when it comes to the footy I saw growing up, but it isn't nostalgia to say that the game sense, marking prowess, kicking and goal-kicking skill, toughness, and burst power of the father easily eclipses the skillset of the son...and yet it remains reasonable to suggest that Jnr is a superior specimen for the way the game is played today.

It's hard not to compare players past and present, which is exactly what I've ended up doing in the Ablett example, but really I think that we just need to work harder at acknowledging and appreciating the greatness of players in their own context.

 

[Knightmare]

Thanks for your considered response, as ever, Knightmare. I don't deny that McGovern is the better player at present, but I felt that you were dismissive of Moore's prospects of being a 'generational' defender, for want of a better term, and I think that opinion is too narrow given Moore's clear demonstrated capabilities in a career which has thus far been cruelled by injury (signs are good that under a new approach that this can be overcome) and where he has spent very little time in defence honing his craft. His upside is massive. He too can easily become a player that opposition defences try and actively avoid kicking to as well with time.

May I add that the supporting cast of these players is also important. Rance gets to fly for marks because he gets great support from Grimes (who I regard as possibly the best 1vs1 defender of the lot given his speed and focus) and Astbury and McGovern has the support of Barrass, Schofield et alia which allows him to branch off and fly for marks. Moore is lucky in that he has Howe and Langdon (albeit it may mean fewer intercept marks for Moore) who also provide aerial support and Roughead is doing a good job as a spoiling defender too.

The term 'generational' in a football context suggests over the next 10 years Moore will be the outright best key defender without any reasonable contender. It's a premature call because he isn't the best yet with guys now older and younger in my view better. Even in younger age groups. Naughton though he has moved forward and looked fantastic I project to be better than Moore. Harris Andrews is better and Moore is still chasing him though has made considerable ground.

Moore isn't considerably better than those guys. People can make an argument. If you consider Moore better, you consider Moore better. But you're not going to go around to every fan and they're all going to say Moore is better. Lever, Weitering, S.Taylor. Any of those guys have cases to be better than Moore over their careers.

Generational needs to be that clear number one. If there is going to be a generation key defender, we're probably talking about a 200 mark, 70 contested mark per 22 game type who has a 1v1 loss rate of less than 10%. Moore has a long way to go until he's getting in that territory.

 

[Mooresome]

The term 'generational' in a football context suggests over the next 10 years Moore will be the outright best key defender without any reasonable contender. It's a premature call because he isn't the best yet with guys now older and younger in my view better. Even in younger age groups. Naughton though he has moved forward and looked fantastic I project to be better than Moore. Harris Andrews is better and Moore is still chasing him though has made considerable ground.

Moore isn't considerably better than those guys. People can make an argument. If you consider Moore better, you consider Moore better. But you're not going to go around to every fan and they're all going to say Moore is better. Lever, Weitering, S.Taylor. Any of those guys have cases to be better than Moore over their careers.

Generational needs to be that clear number one. If there is going to be a generation key defender, we're probably talking about a 200 mark, 70 contested mark per 22 game type who has a 1v1 loss rate of less than 10%. Moore has a long way to go until he's getting in that territory.

I think you have a lesser opinion of Darcy than almost everyone else in the Afl community ,Harris is good but that's a big call.

 

[sr36]

I'm inclined to agree with the highlighted part of your first sentence. Maybe it goes too far to say that comparison is meaningless, but any direct comparison between great players across different generations will never properly account for changes in the way the game is played. We can meaningfully compare a lot of attributes, like spectacular marking and evasiveness, but no one who has watched football from the 1980s to the present could deny that the game has changed in some fundamental ways.

Having said that, I actually think that the skill and athleticism of modern players too easily overshadows the greatness of earlier players. Daicos remains revered by the faithful, and yet his standing among fans of the game more generally is too often diminished by the fact that players in the present can routinely perform those feats which were once considered Daicos 'magic'. And how do you capture or compare the anticipation such a player caused among the crowd, the sense that something ridiculous and sublime was about to happen...and then the collective awe when something freaky did happen?

The problem is that you can't. It is because the game has evolved or in any case changed that the greatness of the greatest has been, I think, diminished over time. For me, the fact that people think that Ablett Jr is even worthy of being compared to Ablett Snr epitomises the problem; we're so caught up with the attributes of modern champions that we've forgotten what made those players so great in their own time. I feel fortunate to have seen Ablett Snr play, and I'll admit that I suffer from occasional bouts of nostalgia when it comes to the footy I saw growing up, but it isn't nostalgia to say that the game sense, marking prowess, kicking and goal-kicking skill, toughness, and burst power of the father easily eclipses the skillset of the son...and yet it remains reasonable to suggest that Jnr is a superior specimen for the way the game is played today.

It's hard not to compare players past and present, which is exactly what I've ended up doing in the Ablett example, but really I think that we just need to work harder at acknowledging and appreciating the greatness of players in their own context.

The other thing to add on to the Daicos example. He invented something that people thought was impossible, of course he should be more revered than the guys who have come along later and copied it. The amazing thing is that he refined his invention to such a degree that no one has been able to do it better.

If we value the ability to reproduce as highly as originality and creativity, we may as well just knock down the great buildings of the past and replace them with reinforced copies.

 

[JB1975]

The other thing to add on to the Daicos example. He invented something that people thought was impossible, of course he should be more revered than the guys who have come along later and copied it. The amazing thing is that he refined his invention to such a degree that no one has been able to do it better.

If we value the ability to reproduce as highly as originality and creativity, we may as well just knock down the great buildings of the past and replace them with reinforced copies.

Absolutely. And I'll add that some of the greats -- and Daicos is a standout example -- weren't just great in their own time, they also helped to usher in the more modern, dynamic game of today.

 

[Knightmare]

I think you have a lesser opinion of Darcy than almost everyone else in the Afl community ,Harris is good but that's a big call.

Champion Data last year rated Harris Andrews elite and as the second best key defender in the competition.

He's early 2019 down early season and statistically and Moore rates favourably at the moment in intercept marks/contested marks/intercept possessions though my expectation is that Andrews improves his intercept possessions/intercept marks/contested marks numbers which are all well down so far this season. Andrews' 2018 play was of a higher standard than what Moore is doing presently.

Rating Andrews more highly than Moore shouldn't be surprising with Andrews younger and having achieved more in recent years. Moore needs a sustained period of good health and continued form to deserve that level of recognition.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Absolutely. And I'll add that some of the greats -- and Daicos is a standout example -- weren't just great in their own time, they also helped to usher in the more modern, dynamic game of today.

I should point out Peter Daicos could also kick 60 meter goals, kicked on BOTH right and left goals from 50 meters.
Short, long, corners, after tackles, between tackles, free or whatever he nailed goals.

Nobody yet has come close to his prolific nature.

Yes Cyril and Eddie do remarkable things, but are they doing it with prolific numbers on both sides from all distances.
Can they, do they, kick 60 meter goals?

They are greats, Peter was the greatest ever player for the miracle goals. Nobody has yet reached his level.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

In the Darcy discussion what seems left out is the intangible.

Presence.
Influence.
Inspiring those around you.

De Goey does it in spades.

I’m noticing Darcy is starting to “own” his territory.
You feel it at the games, it’s palpable.

• Fellow posters when you’re at the game, does he not feel like he’s in this CONTROL and OWNS his space.

All the stats in the world can’t generate meaningful analysis of the intangible.

Does that make Darcy the best by position? No, not yet.
But he’s getting there and he’s getting to the discussion.

What’s more, he is becoming the player we have, that we now must keep and not worry about if someone else is marginally better or not. 8 3/4qtrs isn’t 8 7/8ths but it’s not worth worrying about.

 

[sr36]

Champion Data last year rated Harris Andrews elite and as the second best key defender in the competition.

He's early 2019 down early season and statistically and Moore rates favourably at the moment in intercept marks/contested marks/intercept possessions though my expectation is that Andrews improves his intercept possessions/intercept marks/contested marks numbers which are all well down so far this season. Andrews' 2018 play was of a higher standard than what Moore is doing presently.

Rating Andrews more highly than Moore shouldn't be surprising with Andrews younger and having achieved more in recent years. Moore needs a sustained period of good health and continued form to deserve that level of recognition.

I rate him, but find him a strange one for you to rate so highly. To me he's an elite contest killer, but not a great interceptor. With your clear preference for interceptors, he wouldn't appear to fit your bill. Do stats suggest he's a much better interceptor or contested mark than I'm giving him credit for?

 

[Proud 2 Be Ur New Dad]

An element of Darcy's game I haven't seen be mentioned a whole heap is his ability to know when to take a tackle and when to get rid of the ball.

I have been super impressed with his ability in open play to know when to just take a tackle and force a ball up and when to push the ball fast into space. Very few players have the ability and control and understand a situation to that level. He just doesn't seem like he's forcing anything. He's happy to go when he needs to and make contact when he needs to. It ties in with his ability to read when to peel off his man and when to lock up.

When you start thinking of the game on that sort of level, combined with his physical abilities, you know you have something with huge potential on your hands.

 

[sr36]

Trying to compare players directly to different eras is meaningless, the game is completely different nowadays and a lot harder to dominate like it was in the past.

No doubt those players were greats of their time, but the modern player is faster, stronger, MUCH fitter, jumps higher, has better skills and a better game understanding. Players are simply better now, that's undeniable. Nostalgia is a very powerful it seems though, so modern players rarely get the accolades they deserve.

Disagree with that. In recent years, every bloke who has risen to being considered best in the league gets discussed as possibly the GOAT - Judd, Ablett Jnr, Martin,

 

[jackcass]

Thanks for your considered response, as ever, Knightmare. I don't deny that McGovern is the better player at present, but I felt that you were dismissive of Moore's prospects of being a 'generational' defender, for want of a better term, and I think that opinion is too narrow given Moore's clear demonstrated capabilities in a career which has thus far been cruelled by injury (signs are good that under a new approach that this can be overcome) and where he has spent very little time in defence honing his craft. His upside is massive. He too can easily become a player that opposition defences try and actively avoid kicking to as well with time.

May I add that the supporting cast of these players is also important. Rance gets to fly for marks because he gets great support from Grimes (who I regard as possibly the best 1vs1 defender of the lot given his speed and focus) and Astbury and McGovern has the support of Barrass, Schofield et alia which allows him to branch off and fly for marks. Moore is lucky in that he has Howe and Langdon (albeit it may mean fewer intercept marks for Moore) who also provide aerial support and Roughead is doing a good job as a spoiling defender too.

I think we're missing the obvious here comparing 2019 McGovern with 2019 Moore. McGovern at the same age was still a marking beast but overall was a mere shadow of the player he has become. He was a rookie draft pick who was struggling for senior games and didn't debut until his 3rd or 4th year at the Weagles. It wasn't till 2017 that he really announced himself. For mine, the exciting thing about Moore is that his ceiling could be so much higher.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...2=19&type=A&pid1=4023&pid2=3571&fid1=O&fid2=O

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Disagree with that. In recent years, every bloke who has risen to being considered best in the league gets discussed as possibly the GOAT - Judd, Ablett Jnr, Martin,

And don’t they go on about Martin and his 2017.
Was a great season. True.

So much today is about goats.

 

[Scodog10]

I think you have a lesser opinion of Darcy than almost everyone else in the Afl community ,Harris is good but that's a big call.

No it really isn’t. I don’t subscribe to much of what KM has to say when not draft related, but that is dead on. Andrews is streets ahead of Moore who has played about 10 matches as a KPD and maybe half of those to the standard Andrews has since 2016. Moore is chasing him down though which is encouraging.

 

[Knightmare]

I rate him, but find him a strange one for you to rate so highly. To me he's an elite contest killer, but not a great interceptor. With your clear preference for interceptors, he wouldn't appear to fit your bill. Do stats suggest he's a much better interceptor or contested mark than I'm giving him credit for?

This year Andrews isn't intercepting or taking contested marks to the level he did last year which is why I don't look at him this year as an AA contender. He's not even close to his career averages in intercept possessions/intercept marks/contested marks rating.

He's a better stopper and 1v1 player than Moore based on last year's play but his numbers in the key areas in 2017/2018 were much the same as Moore.

Over Andrews' career and he's a prolific spoiler rating elite for spoils, but he's also over his career an elite intercept mark and rated above average for marks and contested marks. So he does tick the boxes I look at even if his style is seen as more defensively/spoil focused. This year other than spoils he's average in all those categories and intercept marks is below average which is a massive drop off I wouldn't expect and as such doesn't deserve All-Australian consideration or any plaudits on form to date in 2019.

If I could have one or the other, I'm taking Andrews, and it's mostly because I'm more confident in his body. But I'm seeing them fairly similar as interceptors (Moore slightly the better) with Andrews the better stopper and coming in for a lot more spoils. He's not my preferred style of player but on performance he still on 07/08 form is slightly better than 2019 Moore.

If people don't have him in the discussion for key defenders you'd most want to add your list on long term/projected career value I'd consider that very much a mistake.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

On All Australian selection.

Do people really believe it’s a pure selection just based on form for 2019?*

Look who are the selectors. Are they susceptible to “noise” and “hype.”
I’d suggest that comes into it, at least to a degree.

Plus previous years form does come into it if it’s line ball, I’d suggest. Max Gawn or Brodie Grundy for first ruck last season? That both were in the team (correct!) as they should be was in my view the noise from all the pundits that neither should be left out.

It’s just part of it, the noise around these things. Hence, in my view Darcy will be in the squad and be in the side ( assuming everything remains as is.). Is that fair? Unsure, but that’s my take.


* the captaincy is the only accolade that is given for a body of long term work as a rule. It’s the only way I’d suggest. So if Scott makes the cut this year he might be rewarded as captain if he can over come the Dangerfield love in.

** separately I’d love a coach to be selected as it used to be and not default to flag coach (who rightly gets all the kudos anyway).

 

[sr36]

I should point out Peter Daicos could also kick 60 meter goals, kicked on BOTH right and left goals from 50 meters.
Short, long, corners, after tackles, between tackles, free or whatever he nailed goals.

Nobody yet has come close the his prolific nature.

Yes Cyril and Eddie do remarkable things, but are they doing it with prolific numbers on both sides from all distances.
Can they, do they, kick 60 meter goals?

They are greats, Peter was the greatest ever player for the miracle goals. Nobody has yet reached his level.

Daicos was absolutely incredible and could do anything with the ball in his hand. An All time great who changed everyone's perception of what was possible.

He's a really interesting one for these sort of discussions though, because the Daicos we all talk about is the guy in the second half of his career whose body was shot, needed a litre of cortisone to get on the park, and could barely run. To me that makes him even more incredible, but you could argue: With the defensive running necessary to play as a small forward in modern footy, would that guy who wowed us all, get picked to play seniors in 2019.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Daicos was absolutely incredible and could do anything with the ball in his hand. An All time great who changed everyone's perception of what was possible.

He's a really interesting one for these sort of discussions though, because the Daicos we all talk about is the guy in the second half of his career whose body was shot, needed a litre of cortisone to get on the park, and could barely run. To me that makes him even more incredible, but you could argue: With the defensive running necessary to play as a small forward in modern footy, would that guy who wowed us all, get picked to play seniors in 2019.

Absolutely he’d be picked.
Scoring highly, getting the ball trumps any deficiencies.
The team might not pick three weak defensive types but they’d take Daicos absolutely.

 

[partypie]

While I fully respect KM's opinion I feel Darcy has the firm potential to be generational as a KPD.

In my time within this mortal coil I don't ever recall a KPD with the same combination of size, athleticism, speed, one-on-one defending, reading of the ball in flight and pinpoint disposal that Darcy has displayed to this point in 2019.

There are some areas which obviously need working on and a number of rough edges to polish, but even after this small sample size Darcy is impressing in such a variety of ways and at such a level that he already looks like a stand out even amongst a very sold crop of young KPD's - and that is without the benefit of the several years worth of development those other young KPD's have gained.

Time will tell in terms of how Darcy develops, but I don't think there has ever been a more exciting first 7 games out of a new KPD than we've seen out of Darcy this year (from a potential standpoint).

 

[sr36]

Absolutely he’d be picked.
Scoring highly, getting the ball trumps any deficiencies.
The team might not pick three weak defensive types but they’d take Daicos absolutely.

I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure. His defensive pressure would be the lowest in the AFL by a significant margin.

 

[TW Sherrin]

Whoa there... Plugger ? Not a physically gifted athlete maybe... but a superbly physically gifted footballer.. and that’s more important

Plugger was amongst the fastest players at STK over 20m. A better athlete than he gets credit for.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure. His defensive pressure would be the lowest in the AFL by a significant margin.

He’d find a way to pressurise and tackle.

 

[jackcass]

Daicos was absolutely incredible and could do anything with the ball in his hand. An All time great who changed everyone's perception of what was possible.

He's a really interesting one for these sort of discussions though, because the Daicos we all talk about is the guy in the second half of his career whose body was shot, needed a litre of cortisone to get on the park, and could barely run. To me that makes him even more incredible, but you could argue: With the defensive running necessary to play as a small forward in modern footy, would that guy who wowed us all, get picked to play seniors in 2019.

Would 2019 medical procedures and injury management mean he'd still be running through the midfield?