News David Noble - New North Melbourne Coach

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the big lebowski

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because Brisbane finished 17th, 17th and 15th the season before that enabling them to load up on picks

Aside from freaks like Fyfe/Judd/Bont who peaked when they were early 20s, almost all other elite players take awhile to come in. Dustin Martin's best season was 6 years into his career. So even if North drafted the best player in the current draft, there is still another 4-5 years to wait for him to come good.
Did they really do that much better from the pre Fagan days as North have from the pre Noble days from a draft pick perspective?

Andrews, mcgluggage, berry, hipwood, who else?

Remember they used a pick for beams, took schache at 2, used a pick on Christensen. Also the 2017 draft (raynor, starchevich, bailey) was fagans first year, so on a like for like basis, the 2021 draft for north.

And Cameron/Neale were traded in post Fagan. Showing how talent is drawn to clubs on the rise with a father figure type coach.

So compare Andrews, Mcluggage, berry and hipwood with

Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, LDU, Thomas, Zurhaar, Stephenson, Taylor, Scott, Hayden, Perez, Comben, Xerri, Pick 2 and pick 11 plus 4 or so more speculative draft picks.

I have probably missed some for the lions but it looks in Norths favour to me, not withstanding the lions have Andrews
 

Freomaniac

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One advantage that the non-Vic teams have is that every second week they have a huge home ground advantage, so when they go from being an ordinary team to a pretty decent team, they can take a big jump up the ladder, because they become very very hard to beat every second week, whereas when a Victorian team goes from very ordinary to pretty decent, it's much harder to make a big jump up the ladder like that, because they don't have a really big home ground advantage anywhere near as much as the interstate teams.

Granted playing a few games in Tassie helps, in North's case.
Cuts both ways to be honest.

You are almost right.....

But I usually post in a neutral view towards vic sides and non vic sides.

Yes to a degree that Non Vic sides have that Advantage every 2nd week. However..... its only a strong advantage if that Non Vic side is Half decent.

Just a couple of examples.

Freo have only made finals 7 years out of 25. Hell they only made finals in 3 years out of 17 from 1995-2011. why is that? Because they were poorly run as they had a crap Board which resulted in a and had a substandard and underachieving playing list.

Swans of 1992-1994 won 3 wooden spoons in a row. They won 8 games in 3 seasons. 3 games in 1992, 1 game in 1993 and 4 games in 1994. Why is that? they play home games at the SCG? Home ground Advantage means bugger all if you have a substandard playing list.

If home ground Advantage was a difference maker, then the suns would of made finals series.

On the other end of the Scale....

West coast of of the 1990s made finals every year from 1990-99. It was easy to make finals for them. in a 22 game season, all they had to do was get 12 wins. Win at least 9-10 games at home and 2-4 games away vs bottom 6 clubs. From 1995 onwards, they got Freo twice. so from 1995-1999, they had 12 games in their home state and 2 virtual automatic home wins vs freo at the start of the season.

Crows from 1997-2009 only missed out in finals in 1999, 2000 and 2004. So that means that they made finals in 1997-8, 2001-2003, 2005-9.

Again 12 out of 22 games at home because of the 2 showdowns. 10 away games, Again for the crows to get finals with 12-13 wins, get 9-11 wins at home and 2-4 away wins, most likely vs bottom 6 sides.



Another Advantage the Non-Vics have, I will Bloody Admit to this and will not deny this to anyone. This Applies to SA and WA especially. The SA and WA sides can have easier access to local talent.

I am a dockers fan. My team has access to the WAFL to get local talent. the only other WA side that fights over local talent is West coast.

You are a Saints fan. You are a Victorian side. That means you are competing against 9 other Victorian sides . Your team gets local state talent either By the VFL, which was Unfair to the Victorian sides as there are 16 teams. 10 of them are basically AFL ressies sides and 6 stand alone sides. 10 Vic sides fighting over 6 local sides to draw talent and you know its slim pickings.

You also have the TAC cup or the NAB league which is the country league or under 20s competition.

Suprised WA doesnt have a country league considering theres 2.6 million in WA. But that is another story.

My only minor problem is back in 2010, freo had no games at the MCG during the regular season. We had 4 dockland games instead. Freos only MCG game was vs Geelong when freo were belted by 10 goals in that semi final.

Now all non vic sides get at least 1 game at the MCG per year minimum.


you could make an argument in the 1990s that some Vic Sides had home ground advantages in their suburban grounds.

Only one vic side has a home ground Advantage and that is Geelong.

Carlton at Princes park in the 1990s and 2000s I consider then having a home groun advantage.

But since you are a saints fan, only time you have a home gorund advantage at docklands is vs the non vic sides and there is only 8 of them.
 

Freomaniac

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Brisbane under Fagan

2017 - bottom 4
2018 - bottom 4
2019 - top 4

Why shouldn’t that be our goal?
lol

Lions before Fagan
2016 - bottom 4
2015 - bottom 4
2014 - bottom 4
2019 top 4.

2018: 15th

2017: 18th

2016: 17th

2015: 17th

2014: 15th


Remember Brisbane had to go through a deep rebuild at the end of 2013 when Voss was sacked and guys like Karazenis, Docherty, Yeo and polec left.



I dont see them going from 17th in 2020 to top 4 in 2023.

I see them go from 17th in 2020 to 5th-8th spot in 2023.

I am not trying to pot shot North.

But it seems that the North Board think they can cull the list and finish top 4 in 3 years. Thats a huge task.
 

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PattyKwasagun

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Did they really do that much better from the pre Fagan days as North have from the pre Noble days from a draft pick perspective?

Andrews, mcgluggage, berry, hipwood, who else?

Remember they used a pick for beams, took schache at 2, used a pick on Christensen. Also the 2017 draft (raynor, starchevich, bailey) was fagans first year, so on a like for like basis, the 2021 draft for north.

And Cameron/Neale were traded in post Fagan. Showing how talent is drawn to clubs on the rise with a father figure type coach.

So compare Andrews, Mcluggage, berry and hipwood with

Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, LDU, Thomas, Zurhaar, Stephenson, Taylor, Scott, Hayden, Perez, Comben, Xerri, Pick 2 and pick 11 plus 4 or so more speculative draft picks.

I have probably missed some for the lions but it looks in Norths favour to me, not withstanding the lions have Andrews
Just on this point, McCluggage & Berry were actually drafted when Fagan & Noble were already at the club. They were in the 2016 draft, and Fages & Nobes joined a couple of months before that.

It is true that we had been in a rebuild for a few years before the arrival of Fagan (in one form or another we'd been rebuilding with early draft picks since 2010 really), but we didn't have much to show for it.

The only players still in our best 22 who were here before Fagan & Noble arrived are Daniel Rich, Mitch Robinson, Dan McStay, Ryan Lester (somewhat questionable if Lester is best 22 though), Dayne Zorko, Eric Hipwood, Harris Andrews and Darcy Gardiner.

That's a reasonable core to work with, but without much depth. Archie Smith & Rhys Mathieson are the only other players still on our list who were here before Fagan & Noble arrived - everything else has been built in the four year journey.

So I don't think it's unreasonable to think you can completely transform a list in 3 years. It takes a hell of a lot of correct decisions along the way, and I could list almost 50 pivotal individual right calls that we made.

For example: Letting Rockliff, Beams, and Schache go despite what many thought they could offer and in some cases the poor value we got back for them, paying a bit extra to get the deal done for Charlie Cameron, the pursuit of Lachie Neale in the belief he could be one of the best players in the competition, nailing the majority of our draft picks in our two pivotal high-pick-heavy drafts of 2016 & 2017 (particularly McCluggage, Berry, Bailey, Starcevich & Rayner), finding the right wellbeing staff to retain players, believing we could get Linc McCarthy's body right, finding the right medical staff in general to keep the list fit, identifying our deficiencies in the indigenous space and seeking to rectify that and make the club a better place for indigenous players, backing ourselves in to take Rayner at #1 despite the speculation he mightn't stay, the acquisition of Hodge to help the cultural build, the scouting of Oscar McInerney from under Melbourne's nose who has now developed into our main ruck, identifying the positive attributes of Jarryd Lyons and finding a way to get him for free - just to name a few.

Each one of those involved some element of risk and at the time many of them had some supporters and media people criticising the decisions, but in hindsight they were all the right calls.

There are some calls which are questioned by some Lions fans - Will the recruitment of Marcus Adams work out for us, should we have let Josh Walker (and now Alex Witherden) go, was it the right move to go after Birchall for example - but there are significantly fewer questionable decisions than outstanding ones, and even fewer overtly wrong calls. In fact, it's hard to think of any overtly wrong calls to this point.

Our strike rate of making the right decisions on individual matters like that has been brilliant under this regime - it's why many of us were happy to see Daniher & Cockatoo brought in despite their injury risks, because the club just hasn't seemed to make decisions that don't work. It's a remarkable thing to say after where we were not too long ago, and is proof that things can turn quickly if you can make the right decisions at that kind of a strike rate.

The good news for North is that our main decision maker in almost all of those cases has been David Noble - so if anybody can renew the club and the list to have you challenging in the short-medium term, it's the guy you hired.
 

JasRulz63

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One advantage that the non-Vic teams have is that every second week they have a huge home ground advantage, so when they go from being an ordinary team to a pretty decent team, they can take a big jump up the ladder, because they become very very hard to beat every second week, whereas when a Victorian team goes from very ordinary to pretty decent, it's much harder to make a big jump up the ladder like that, because they don't have a really big home ground advantage anywhere near as much as the interstate teams.

Granted playing a few games in Tassie helps, in North's case.
You'd expect a "pretty decent" team to win at least half their games at a neutral home ground right?
 

B4Bear

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When Benny Gale set the 3-0-75 target, he made it quite clear that unless they fixed up the admin side of the club and focused on achieving the 0 part of the target, the rest could not happen. Buckley seems to think they have the back of house in order and that's why his target is delusional.
Care to explain why the back end of the house is not in order?

Once again we posted a small profit, expansion plans have been submitted for the club's precinct, the membership stayed loyal and did not fall off a cliff like it was predicted.

We have a new coach and assistants.

So can you back up your lazy trope or are you just bored because it is the off-season?
 

Psicosis

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Should Buckley have just kept his mouth shut publicly? IMO yes. He should have seen how a throw away line on Wins/Losses/Finals could be taken out of context. On a day that should be a celebration of Noble's new position, became all about the Chairman's lofty expectations, in typical click bait fashion.

Privately, expectations & ambitions are necessary. If any club isn't targeting finals/top 4 in 3 years, then wtf are they doing?

Do I think that we will finish top 4 in 3 years? No, however the club have clarified that his comments were regarding the ambition for pushing top 4 in 3 years (not KPI's) which IMO is expected of a high performance sporting organization.

With the right decisions, good drafting/recruiting and development of youth, I think pushing for finals in 3 years, should be bare minimum of ambition.
 

Johnny Bananas

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I would say there are 2 blokes in the top 10 that would be part of any "core" group of a good AFL team. Buckley has rocks in his head.
Agreed. North have to build that core first. In a lot of ways Brisbane got lucky that we could build that core by trading in mature talent like Neale, Cameron and McCarthy and picking Lyons off the scrapheap. But we did already have a base of talented players in their prime, like Stefan Martin, Robinson, Beams and Zorko.

Did they really do that much better from the pre Fagan days as North have from the pre Noble days from a draft pick perspective?

Andrews, mcgluggage, berry, hipwood, who else?
Andrews is the only one of those players who was really instrumental in our rise up the table. McCluggage has played well but isn't yet a true superstar, while Berry and Hipwood are still developing and I'd say they haven't truly broken out yet. The real cause of our rapid rise was the core of talented veterans I mentioned above, plus having good leaders like Hodge. Draft picks almost always take time to become difference makers.

Also the 2017 draft (raynor, starchevich, bailey) was fagans first year, so on a like for like basis, the 2021 draft for north.
No, his first draft was 2016 with McCluggage and Berry.

And Cameron/Neale were traded in post Fagan. Showing how talent is drawn to clubs on the rise with a father figure type coach.
That only applies to Neale. Cameron was the result of go home factor.

So compare Andrews, Mcluggage, berry and hipwood with

Simpkin, Larkey, McKay, LDU, Thomas, Zurhaar, Stephenson, Taylor, Scott, Hayden, Perez, Comben, Xerri, Pick 2 and pick 11 plus 4 or so more speculative draft picks.

I have probably missed some for the lions but it looks in Norths favour to me, not withstanding the lions have Andrews
Not only is the Lions' rise mostly attributable to other players than the ones you've mentioned, I don't see all of those players being real difference makers in the next few years. Smalls tend to hit good productivity around age 22-23, while talls seem to take until about 24-26 to break out. So Simpkin, LDU, Zurhaar, Stephenson and Hayden are at the right age to break out in the next couple of seasons. Come 2023-24, Larkey and McKay will be the right age also. But I think it'll take that whole core a couple of years to crack the top 4, so I think 2025 is a good aim.
 

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the big lebowski

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Agreed. North have to build that core first. In a lot of ways Brisbane got lucky that we could build that core by trading in mature talent like Neale, Cameron and McCarthy and picking Lyons off the scrapheap. But we did already have a base of talented players in their prime, like Stefan Martin, Robinson, Beams and Zorko.


Andrews is the only one of those players who was really instrumental in our rise up the table. McCluggage has played well but isn't yet a true superstar, while Berry and Hipwood are still developing and I'd say they haven't truly broken out yet. The real cause of our rapid rise was the core of talented veterans I mentioned above, plus having good leaders like Hodge. Draft picks almost always take time to become difference makers.


No, his first draft was 2016 with McCluggage and Berry.


That only applies to Neale. Cameron was the result of go home factor.


Not only is the Lions' rise mostly attributable to other players than the ones you've mentioned, I don't see all of those players being real difference makers in the next few years. Smalls tend to hit good productivity around age 22-23, while talls seem to take until about 24-26 to break out. So Simpkin, LDU, Zurhaar, Stephenson and Hayden are at the right age to break out in the next couple of seasons. Come 2023-24, Larkey and McKay will be the right age also. But I think it'll take that whole core a couple of years to crack the top 4, so I think 2025 is a good aim.
I think we are in agreement.

Though Fagans first year coaching was 2017. Thus his first draft was the raynor draft of 2017.

The point of my post was to compare the young talent acquired through the draft in the pre Fagan period at Brisbane and the pre Noble period for North. I’ve included mcglugage for that reason, as I’ve included Norths pick 2 and 11 this year.

But the main first of your argument is spot on imo. Brisbane’s rise has primarily come About from a group of established players coming to the club post fagans appointment. Certainly in addition to the maturing of young talent.
 

Johnny Bananas

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Though Fagans first year coaching was 2017. Thus his first draft was the raynor draft of 2017.
You should probably trust the fans of a club to know their club better than you do. Fagan was appointed after the 2016 season but before that year's draft.

But the main first of your argument is spot on imo. Brisbane’s rise has primarily come About from a group of established players coming to the club post fagans appointment. Certainly in addition to the maturing of young talent.
Yes, that is my point. And I don't think North have the veteran talent right now to get to the finals before about 2023 at the earliest when the young talent begins to hit their prime. Stephenson was a step in the right direction though.
 

the big lebowski

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You should probably trust the fans of a club to know their club better than you do. Fagan was appointed after the 2016 season but before that year's draft.


Yes, that is my point. And I don't think North have the veteran talent right now to get to the finals before about 2023 at the earliest when the young talent begins to hit their prime. Stephenson was a step in the right direction though.
1: I know that Fagan was appointed in oct 2016. I know he was there for the 2016 draft. Hence I have included mcclugage in the pre fagan young talent. He was there before fagan coached a game. Fagans first year of coaching was 2017, his first draft was 2017.

Noble was appointed in nov 2020. He will be there for the 2020 draft. Hence I have included pick 2 and 11 in the pre Noble young talent. They will be on the list before Noble will coach a game. Nobles first year coaching will be 2021, his first draft will be 2021.

2: no North doesn’t have the mature talent now to be a finals side. Nor did Brisbane when fagan took over. That came after.
 

Freomaniac

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Lotta Freo supporters in here sharing their personal observations on what it takes to build a premiership team.
Funny that....

Freo has made a grand final. So.... yeah at least they were close to winning one, just got beaten by a very good hawks side in 2013.

We I will say one very interesting thing....

I have been a Freo fan since late 2001-early 2002.

I saw through freos infamous game in round 15, 2009 where freo kicked 1.7.13.

Hayden Ballantyne, Zac Clarke, Matt De Boer, Paul Duffield, Stephen Hill, Luke McPharlin, David Mundy and Nic Suban all played in that infamous game.

Also you know what all those blokes have in common? All of them played in Freos grand final in 2013.
 

Pykie

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the fact he thinks they still have a core group to take them through the next 5-10 years shows us how far off the mark he is.

ffs look at the top 10 from the North B&F

Luke McDonald – 183 - good average footballer.
Jy Simpkin – 140 - definiately some potential there
Jed Anderson – 138 - Nearly 27, has 2-3 years in him.
Todd Goldstein – 131 - Cooked, maybe 1 more year
Trent Dumont – 128 - good average footballer
Robbie Tarrant – 93 - cooked, maybe 1 more year
Josh Walker – 92 - wouldn't get a game in other team in the league
Shaun Higgins – 88 - gone
Ben McKay – 75 - still young i guess
Cameron Zurhaar – 70 - fringe player.

I would say there are 2 blokes in the top 10 that would be part of any "core" group of a good AFL team. Buckley has rocks in his head.
Lol.

Lets just ignore the fact we were decimated with injuries this year.

McKay and LDU would have both finished in the top 5 of the B&F if they played full seasons based on votes per game.

LDU did it off of 6 months of OP as well.

I think a core group of Simpkin, LDU, McKay, Larkey, Zurhaar, Thomas, Taylor, Scott is a good place to start.

You also ignored the fact we also recruited a 26 year old that finished between Greene and Coniglio in GWS' top 10 of their B&F.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

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Funny that....

Freo has made a grand final. So.... yeah at least they were close to winning one, just got beaten by a very good hawks side in 2013.

We I will say one very interesting thing....

I have been a Freo fan since late 2001-early 2002.

I saw through freos infamous game in round 15, 2009 where freo kicked 1.7.13.

Hayden Ballantyne, Zac Clarke, Matt De Boer, Paul Duffield, Stephen Hill, Luke McPharlin, David Mundy and Nic Suban all played in that infamous game.

Also you know what all those blokes have in common? All of them played in Freos grand final in 2013.
The only reason Nic Suban belongs in this discussion is as the benchmark which every player on our list surpass if we're to have a hope of winning a flag.
 

Instincts

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Interestingly enough all of the players that Brisbane drafted from 2010-2015 besides Hipwood and Andrews were not a major contributing factor to why Brisbane shot up the ladder in 2019.

This would mean from that 2014-2016 period when they were getting worse, their young core would turn out to be no good and were still rebuilding, it was only after 2016 in which they had a successful draft year that they began to improve. North will probably end their rebuild next year with delistments of Hall, Tyson and Campbell most likely and they already have a good young core which can see the club improve immidieatly
 
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Leeda

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recognition of a dude who has fought hard and will never back down.. his words mind you..

strong starter and beligerient and also believing in the north deliberation..

He is also a good looking dude but that is nether here nor there...

He has enthusiasm in spades and well we all dynamite ourselves...

welcome to the club of leaders dude...
 

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