Dawn Service

[Gough]

When John Howard used ANZAC day to genuflect at altar of western civilisation it was all good though.

 

[revo333]

Because religion was far more dominant in society than it is now. If one's being consistent you either have both or have neither.

If it's been done for a hundred years I'd say that's pretty consistent.

 

[revo333]

Indigenous Australians have been doing welcomes for 50/60/70,000 years

At soldier memorials?

 

[RedOrWhite]

If it's been done for a hundred years I'd say that's pretty consistent.

Agree to disagree. Prayer was done everywhere 100 years ago, not only for dawn services.

Keep religion out of soldier commemorations imo, especially when it alongside capital are the causes of most wars throughout history.

 

[Skeptikal]

Leader of the Liberal Party Angus Taylor says he 'understands' why people booed the Welcome to Country Ceremony at the Dawn Service.

The real 'leaders' in our community are telling him why he's wrong.

 

[QuietB]

At soldier memorials?

Indigenous Australians would not even have been invited to attend 100 years ago. Even 50 years ago. And their contribution was certainly not recognised. Do you want to have that discussion?

 

[The Punter]

What I need explained to me is why one would feel compelled to get up in the middle of the night to go to a Dawn Service in order to boo? A better use of that time would be just to stay in bed. The boo-ers sound like they need the rest.

 

[Sphynx]

The booing is completely unacceptable.

I however don't agree with the Welcome to Country at ANZAC day services either.

Veterans have been pretty vocal over the years as finding it offensive in these services, not all (before people jump down my throat), but there's been enough discussion on it that it's the one day that should fall in the "time and a place for it" common sense category. Whether those veterans that find it offensive really understand it's meaning, is another debate and largely irrelevant. It's their one day of the year for memorial and reflection. Most other issues should rightfully take a backseat to it.

It's something that has been asking for trouble for a long time given plenty of public commentary on it has taken place even outside of the ANZAC day period.

It's not a day that should ever be politicised.

Maybe the first nations community could devise a different style WTC specifically for Anzac Day, a thank you, rather than "a welcome". As from what I understand of the issue, that is veterans main issue.

 

[The Punter]

I'd also appreciate a defence of booing in general. Just someone to explain to me why we need to keep doing it under any circumstance.

 

[schneebly111]

I'd also appreciate a defence of booing in general. Just someone to explain to me why we need to keep doing it under any circumstance.

I think there was this issue some years back, something about a guy called Adam? Something about being told to put up with booing otherwise you’re a sook…..?

 

[Gough]

The booing is completely unacceptable.

I however don't agree with the Welcome to Country at ANZAC day services either.

Veterans have been pretty vocal over the years as finding it offensive in these services, not all (before people jump down my throat), but there's been enough discussion on it that it's the one day that should fall in the "time and a place for it" common sense category. Whether those veterans that find it offensive really understand it's meaning, is another debate and largely irrelevant. It's their one day of the year for memorial and reflection. Most other issues should rightfully take a backseat to it.

It's something that has been asking for trouble for a long time given plenty of public commentary on it has taken place even outside of the ANZAC day period.

It's not a day that should ever be politicised.

Maybe the first nations community could devise a different style WTC specifically for Anzac Day, a thank you, rather than "a welcome". As from what I understand of the issue, that is veterans main issue.

How many people booed out of thousands attending? It's a small but very unpleasant and vocal minority who are intent on spoiling it for everyone for their own racist ends.

 

[The Punter]

I think there was this issue some years back, something about a guy called Adam? Something about being told to put up with booing otherwise you’re a sook…..?

I just don't get why it is necessary.

 

[Sphynx]

How many people booed out of thousands attending? It's a small but very unpleasant and vocal minority who are intent on spoiling it for everyone for their own racist ends.

Agreed, but it's 1 idiot.

It's a well discussed issue/point though.

I personally think it should be the 1 day the first nations people park it, as recognition for veterans, even as guests on their land, for protecting their land which never was and never will have been the veterans that fought for it, in their own eyes, from foreign invaders and paid for it with their lives and blood.

Maybe that's just me though...

Maybe they should create their own day of appreciation... There's plenty of options.

 

[sherb]

The booing is completely unacceptable.

I however don't agree with the Welcome to Country at ANZAC day services either.

Veterans have been pretty vocal over the years as finding it offensive in these services, not all (before people jump down my throat), but there's been enough discussion on it that it's the one day that should fall in the "time and a place for it" common sense category. Whether those veterans that find it offensive really understand it's meaning, is another debate and largely irrelevant. It's their one day of the year for memorial and reflection. Most other issues should rightfully take a backseat to it.

It's something that has been asking for trouble for a long time given plenty of public commentary on it has taken place even outside of the ANZAC day period.

It's not a day that should ever be politicised.

Maybe the first nations community could devise a different style WTC specifically for Anzac Day, a thank you, rather than "a welcome". As from what I understand of the issue, that is veterans main issue.

It's only being politicised by the likes of Hanson who are egging on the ignorant rednecks in our society.

 

[schneebly111]

Agreed, but it's 1 idiot.

It's a well discussed issue/point though.

I personally think it should be the 1 day the first nations people park it, as recognition for veterans, even as guests on their land, for protecting land which never was and never will have been theres in their own eyes, from foreign invaders with their lives and blood.

Maybe that's just me though...

Maybe they should create their own day of appreciation... There's plenty of options.

Jeez mate……

1 - most Australian soldiers (post federation) have not been “protected Australia”, even from Japan in WW2 (the Japanese PM admitted after the war they never had plans to Invade Australia)

2 - the only people who’ve shed blood on this land to protect this land from foreign invaders were indigenous who resisted British colonialism 1788-early 20th century.

3 - we have zero days of recognition for the frontier wars (the Australian wars as they should be called), heck even most of the right get upset when you mentioned they exist

4 - it was the RSL and other veteran’s groups that invited the indigenous leaders to perform a ceremony at the events, and it’s the neo Nazis (the people whom the diggers fought) who are upset by it.

5 - isn’t one of the main reasons those against a WTC being performed because they think it’s “overdone and should only be used for special occasions?” Well isn’t this one of them? If it’s banned on Anzac Day the sooks will find an excuse to ban it for every other event

This is heading in the Goodes direction of debate now, there’ll be racists accusing those indigenous people of “staging for free kicks” soon……

 

[sherb]

I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time I read from the anti-WTC crowd on SM a post along the lines of "why should I be welcomed to a country I was born in?"

These morons are getting their knickers in a twist about something they don't understand. They are NOT being welcomed to Australia at the WTC ceremony.

Dr Tracy Westerman explains on her FB page (and I would trust her to know):
"Let’s be precise about what Welcome to Country actually is — because the people booing clearly don’t know.
It is not a welcome to Australia.
It is a Traditional Owner welcoming you onto their specific traditional lands -the country in which they have practiced their traditions including the traditional welcome to other clans— the precise land your feet are standing on. Land that was never ceded. Never signed away. Never surrendered.
That welcome was then extended to ALL Australia’s. As an act of grace. An act of reconciliation.
Every time it’s delivered-that’s the reason it’s delivered.
My mother had to apply for citizenship of the land she was born on. Worked for no wages. Our ceremonies were made illegal. Our children were taken. Our people were massacred on this continent — and the historical record is unambiguous on that. Massacres that are still denied. Not taught in schools.
Indeed our own Prime Minister commemorated the Port Arthur anniversary by describing it as “the worst mass shooting in our nation’s history.”
Port Arthur was a tragedy. 35 lives. Devastating.
But our nation’s worst massacre?

• • The Pinjarra Massacre, 1834 — soldiers ambushed Bindjareb Noongar men, women and children on the Murray River, here in Western Australia. Up to 80 killed. The town still carries that name.
  • The Slaughterhouse Creek Massacre, NSW, 1838 — 300 people killed. Planned to coincide with a ceremony so numbers would be highest.
  • The Coniston Massacre, NT, 1928 — over 60 Warlpiri people shot dead, including children.

Within living memory
Historians have documented over 400 massacres of Aboriginal people between 1788 and 1930. Over 10,000 killed. In those records alone.
And Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples still served in every Australian conflict since the Boer War. Over 1,000 in WWI. More than 4,000 in WWII. At least 300 in Vietnam. The Torres Strait Islander men had the highest enlistment rate per capita of any group in Australia during WWII — while being paid a fraction of white soldiers’ wages. While they couldn’t vote. While they weren’t counted in the census.
They fought for a country that didn’t count them as citizens.
And despite all of it — the removals, the stolen wages, the massacres, the legislation that made us strangers on our own Country — Traditional Owners still extend that 60,000 year old ceremonial welcome to all Australians.
Every single time.
As an act of reconciliation.
And we repay that extraordinary act of reconciliation by booing an Elder at a dawn service.
Welcome to Country isn’t divisive. It is one of the most powerful gestures of reconciliation in Australian public life.
The only people who made it political are the ones who told you to boo it."

They are proudly revelling in their own ignorance and spewing hatred as a result. I really don't know how society is going to recover from this cancerous mindset which is infiltrating discussions across various fields.

 

[Sphynx]

Jeez mate……

1 - most Australian soldiers (post federation) have not been “protected Australia”, even from Japan in WW2 (the Japanese PM admitted after the war they never had plans to Invade Australia)

2 - the only people who’ve shed blood on this land to protect this land from foreign invaders were indigenous who resisted British colonialism 1788-early 20th century.

3 - we have zero days of recognition for the frontier wars (the Australian wars as they should be called), heck even most of the right get upset when you mentioned they exist

4 - it was the RSL and other veteran’s groups that invited the indigenous leaders to perform a ceremony at the events, and it’s the neo Nazis (the people whom the diggers fought) who are upset by it.

5 - isn’t one of the main reasons those against a WTC being performed because they think it’s “overdone and should only be used for special occasions?” Well isn’t this one of them? If it’s banned on Anzac Day the sooks will find an excuse to ban it for every other event

This is heading in the Goodes direction of debate now, there’ll be racists accusing those indigenous people of “staging for free kicks” soon……

Oh that's nice to have known, years after the fact.

Im sure you would be fine to walk down to an RSL and mention that to one of the few remaining WW2 Vet's who were part of the European theatre who were all pulled out of North Africa after years of fighting, for the specific defence of Australia and sent into the jungles of PNG and Borneo.....

Let them know they were there for absolutely no reason and benefit to the country.

We didn't need them, they didn't need to fight.


You're response is exactly the sort of insinuation they take offense to and a reason why they don't want other political and cultural issues even near the day.

It's not a point scoring day of who did what and who didn't from other cultural problems in their country...

2 - the only people who’ve shed blood on this land to protect this land from foreign invaders were indigenous who resisted British colonialism 1788-early 20th century.

The few hundred soldiers killed trying to defend Darwin?

How do you treat the sailors on the likes of Sydney and Perth sunk and killed off Australia's coastline defending supply lines?

They don't count either?

 

[Gough]

I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time I read from the anti-WTC crowd on SM a post along the lines of "why should I be welcomed to a country I was born in?"

These morons are getting their knickers in a twist about something they don't understand. They are NOT being welcomed to Australia at the WTC ceremony.

Dr Tracy Westerman explains on her FB page (and I would trust her to know):
Let’s be precise about what Welcome to Country actually is — because the people booing clearly don’t know.
It is not a welcome to Australia.
It is a Traditional Owner welcoming you onto their specific traditional lands -the country in which they have practiced their traditions including the traditional welcome to other clans— the precise land your feet are standing on. Land that was never ceded. Never signed away. Never surrendered.
That welcome was then extended to ALL Australia’s. As an act of grace. An act of reconciliation.
Every time it’s delivered-that’s the reason it’s delivered.
My mother had to apply for citizenship of the land she was born on. Worked for no wages. Our ceremonies were made illegal. Our children were taken. Our people were massacred on this continent — and the historical record is unambiguous on that. Massacres that are still denied. Not taught in schools.
Indeed our own Prime Minister commemorated the Port Arthur anniversary by describing it as “the worst mass shooting in our nation’s history.”
Port Arthur was a tragedy. 35 lives. Devastating.
But our nation’s worst massacre?

• • The Pinjarra Massacre, 1834 — soldiers ambushed Bindjareb Noongar men, women and children on the Murray River, here in Western Australia. Up to 80 killed. The town still carries that name.
  • The Slaughterhouse Creek Massacre, NSW, 1838 — 300 people killed. Planned to coincide with a ceremony so numbers would be highest.
  • The Coniston Massacre, NT, 1928 — over 60 Warlpiri people shot dead, including children.

Within living memory
Historians have documented over 400 massacres of Aboriginal people between 1788 and 1930. Over 10,000 killed. In those records alone.
And Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples still served in every Australian conflict since the Boer War. Over 1,000 in WWI. More than 4,000 in WWII. At least 300 in Vietnam. The Torres Strait Islander men had the highest enlistment rate per capita of any group in Australia during WWII — while being paid a fraction of white soldiers’ wages. While they couldn’t vote. While they weren’t counted in the census.
They fought for a country that didn’t count them as citizens.
And despite all of it — the removals, the stolen wages, the massacres, the legislation that made us strangers on our own Country — Traditional Owners still extend that 60,000 year old ceremonial welcome to all Australians.
Every single time.
As an act of reconciliation.
And we repay that extraordinary act of reconciliation by booing an Elder at a dawn service.
Welcome to Country isn’t divisive. It is one of the most powerful gestures of reconciliation in Australian public life.
The only people who made it political are the ones who told you to boo it.

They are proudly revelling in their own ignorance and spewing hatred as a result. I really don't know how society is going to recover from this cancerous mindset which is infiltrating discussions across various fields.

Perhaps the anti WTC crowd would welcome a treaty between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal people agreeing to work at a common purpose going forward negating the need for them.

 

[schneebly111]

Oh that's nice to have known, years after the fact.

Im sure you would be fine to walk down to an RSL and mention that to one of the few remaining WW2 Vet's who were part of the European theatre who were all pulled out after years of fighting in defence of AustraliaPNG, and sent into the jungles and Borneo.....

Let them know they were there for absolutely no reason and benefit to the country.

Yes.

After a lifetime of brainwashing and conditioning that soldiers “are always heroes who only fight for honourable reasons” it can be difficult when presented with the truth, and go against what you’ve been told, especially when it comes to war.

Half the population think BRS “served with honour and defended our nation in Afghanistan” even though that is far from the truth.

In his last interview before being executed for war crimes Tojo stated:
“We never had enough troops to [invade Australia]. We had already far out-stretched our lines of communication. We did not have the armed strength or the supply facilities to mount such a terrific extension of our already over-strained and too thinly spread forces. We expected to occupy all New Guinea, to maintain Rabaul as a holding base, and to raid Northern Australia by air. But actual physical invasion—no, at no time.”

WW2 in SE Asia was a contest between the Japanese and the British, Dutch and French colonies for resources in the region, like most wars are. Now I’m certainly not a Japanese WW2 defender (their crimes against China during the war IMO were the worst crimes in human history) but to say “if it wasn’t for the diggers we’d be speaking Japanese” is false.

It certainly isn’t relevant to make a reason why an indigenous leader can’t perform a WTC at an Anzac service .

 

[sherb]

Perhaps the anti WTC crowd would welcome a treaty between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal people agreeing to work at a common purpose going forward negating the need for them.

I doubt it Gough, they are not interested in solutions.

 

[Sphynx]

Yes.

After a lifetime of brainwashing and conditioning that soldiers “are always heroes who only fight for honourable reasons” it can be difficult when presented with the truth, and go against what you’ve been told, especially when it comes to war.

Half the population think BRS “served with honour and defended our nation in Afghanistan” even though that is far from the truth.

In his last interview before being executed for war crimes Tojo stated:
“We never had enough troops to [invade Australia]. We had already far out-stretched our lines of communication. We did not have the armed strength or the supply facilities to mount such a terrific extension of our already over-strained and too thinly spread forces. We expected to occupy all New Guinea, to maintain Rabaul as a holding base, and to raid Northern Australia by air. But actual physical invasion—no, at no time.”

WW2 in SE Asia was a contest between the Japanese and the British, Dutch and French colonies for resources in the region, like most wars are. Now I’m certainly not a Japanese WW2 defender (their crimes against China during the war IMO were the worst crimes in human history) but to say “if it wasn’t for the diggers we’d be speaking Japanese” is false.

It certainly isn’t relevant to make a reason why an indigenous leader can’t perform a WTC at an Anzac service .

Yoy forgot one little old nation there that had a bit to do in the pacific, with no colonies at play.

They tend to finish the sentence, "If it wasn't for ........ we'd be speaking Japanese"

They aren't on trend though at the moment I guess.

I also don't care what Trojo said in hindsight, you are completely rewriting history. There was genuine fear in this country, we defied the British and withdrew the majorty of our fighting force back to Australia and deployed them into the pacific. We kept big numbers in the North of Australia, for defence of the mainland.

To say otherwise is complete bullshit and disrespectful.


ANZAC Day was/is a day for soldiers and their mates. Not for the public, not different cultural issues or religious differences. The general public are secondary to THEIR day.

 

[schneebly111]

Your response is exactly the sort of insinuation they take offense to and a reason why they don't want other political and cultural issues even near the day.

It's not a point scoring day of who did what and who didn't from other cultural problems in their country...

Anzac Day becomes politicised everytime some bootlicker says “the diggers fought for our freedom”.

No they didn’t, and for the most part Australian soldiers have just been tools to enact geopolitical policy in the wider imperial conquests.

Don’t talk about politicisation if you’re going to lie about the political reasons for the war. It’s time to be honest.

 

[Sphynx]

Anzac Day becomes politicised everytime some bootlicker says “the diggers fought for our freedom”.

No they didn’t, and for the most part Australian soldiers have just been tools to enact geopolitical policy in the wider imperial conquests.

Don’t talk about politicisation if you’re going to lie about the political reasons for the war. It’s time to be honest.

And here we have your a-typical far left supporter that simply can't resist not being respectful for one day of the year.

Case in point.

It doesn't matter the reasoning.

The day itself was first marked in recognition of those that fought in a localised conflict to prevent Russia being attacked from it's sea ports.


Plenty of people didn't have a choice in going to Vietnam... It's still a day of reflection for those that were fought and killed, regardless of the reasons and motives for that war.

 

[schneebly111]

I also don't care what Trojo said in hindsight,

I post a direct quote from the former Japanese PM and you say I’m “rewriting history”? Interesting take…..

There was genuine fear in this country,

The government needed the population onside, needed to play up the fear of invasion. It’s a myth in both world wars that the public was totally on the side of war, there was a lot of opposition (moreso in WW1 but there was also a lot of resistance to getting involved in a war that wasn’t on Australian soil esp from unions). The allies had broken the Japanese code and knew their capability to launch a physical invasion of Australia after Midway was non existent.

ANZAC Day was/is a day for soldiers and their mates. Not for the public, not different cultural issues or religious differences. The general public are secondary to THEIR day.

We have freedom of speech in this nation, and there’s a lot of soldiers who are willing to speak of the lies about why they were sent to war, even on days of remembrance.

Remembrance means remember correctly, even if it upsets some.

 

[schneebly111]

Plenty of people didn't have a choice in going to Vietnam... It's still a day of reflection for those that were fought and killed, regardless of the reasons and motives for that war.

From what I understand from verbal conversations with some of that era (this part of history isn’t recorded well) whilst conscription was mandatory (unless your family had money or influence to get you out of it) any conscripts who went into a combat unit in Vietnam had to agree to it first. A lot of those who were conscripted did agree to that